Implications Of The Lack Of A Temple For Jews

[Robert F. Smith]

Robert F.Smith:

http://maxwellinstit...nscripts/?id=58

The temple in itself is not a fetish—it is not a palladium (aegis; cf. fig. 30, p. 125); because the Jews attached their hopes in the end to a building, its destruction had the most crushing effect on them. The Christians exulted, but the Jews thought they would never be restored again because the temple had been destroyed and the Jews themselves felt utterly discouraged with the passing of the temple—it was all over with

Well, yes, the later apostate Christians did exult over the sad state of things for the Jews, and even tried repeatedly to eliminate them. As Nibley pointed out in the Jewish Quarterly Review, 50/2 (Oct 1959), 97-123, and 50/3 (Jan 1960), 229-240, the later Christians envied the temple, and that temple-envy was part of their apostate condition. That major two-part article is reprinted in Collected Works of Hugh Nibley, IV (Deseret Book/FARMS, 1987), 391-434.

The true followers of Christ accompanied him to the Temple often in his lifetime, and received from him sacred teachings about esoteric rites during his 40-day ministry following his resurrection, which you can find detailed in H. Nibley, "Evangelium Quadraginta Dierum," Vigiliae Christianae, 20/1 (1966), 1-24, which is also included in CWHN IV:10-44.

[Robert F. Smith]

Jews of course no longer have a Temple at Jerusalem as it was destroyed exactly as Jesus said it would be:

While it still stood until A.D. 70 and its ordinances performed as it had been for centuries by the Levitical Priesthood, there was really no longer a need for it after Jesus’ death (some additional statements of Jesus’ concerning this):

What you failed to point out is the extraordinary fact that the Second Temple was destroyed by Titus or his cohorts on the very same day (the 9th of Ab) as the First Temple over six centuries earlier!! This is still a formal day of mourning for the Jews.

Edited December 3, 2011 by Robert F. Smith

[coolrok7]

In my quoting from the online article, I was attempting to keep the quoting relatively short. The following could be added right after the following in red that points this fact out (in post #25):

. . .The 12th and 15th legions were stationed on Mount Scopus, further to the east and commanding all ways to Jerusalem from east to north. The 5th legion was held in reserve.

The Second 9th of Av - 70 C.E.

On the 10th of August, in A.D. 70 -- the 9th of Av -- in Jewish reckoning, the very day when the King of Babylon burned the Temple in 586 B.C., the Temple was burned again. Titus took the city and put it to the torch, burning the Temple.

Jewish historian, Flavius Josephus was present in Jerusalem when the city was captured and the Temple was burnt. He described the event in this manner:

The Romans, though it was a terrible struggle to collect the timber, raised their platforms in twenty-one days, having as described before stripped the whole area in a circle round the town to a distance of ten miles. The countryside like the City was a pitiful sight; for where once there had been a lovely vista of woods and parks there was nothing but desert and stumps of trees. No one - not even a foreigner - who had seen the Old Judea and the glorious suburbs of the City, and now set eyes on her present desolation, could have helped sighing and groaning at so terrible a change; for every trace of beauty had been blotted out by war, and nobody who had known it in the past and came upon it suddenly would have recognized the place: when he was already there he would still have been looking for the City. (Ref. 3). . .

[bu11fr0g]

Jews with the last name Kohen or Cohen or Cohn are male line descendants of Aaron and are Levites. Even now they have certain offerings they take.

[coolrok7]

In direct answer to the thread op, the implication is good and bad, good for those who come to faith in Jesus as Jews and bad for those who do not as well as for anyone else as their salvation is at stake.

They don’t have a Temple in part because it was a prophetic fulfillment of their being disciplined as well as for Jesus fulfilling the need for a Temple and He is in fact, “greater than the Temple” which is a major point:

At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn and to eat. But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day. But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him; How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests? Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless? But I say unto you, that in this place is one greater than the temple.

But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless. For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day. (Matthew 12:1-eight)

Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. (Matthew 23:36-38)

Jews not of faith in Jesus are not in the Covenant any longer because they have rejected their Messiah but God still has a plan for the nation of Israel and its people in prophetic fulfillment:

Jesus saith unto them, did ye never read in the scriptures, the stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them. But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet. (Matthew 21:42-46)

What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, just as it is written, “BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.” Brethren, my heart’s desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. For not knowing about God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. (Romans 9:30-10:4)

I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. . . .(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. . . .I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? . . . For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again. (Romans 11:1-2, 8, 11-23)

But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: (Hebrews 8:6-10)

[coolrok7]

In direct answer to the thread op, the implication is good and bad, good for those who come to faith in Jesus as Jews and bad for those who do not as well as for anyone else as their salvation is at stake.

They don’t have a Temple in part because it was a prophetic fulfillment of their being disciplined as well as for Jesus fulfilling the need for a Temple and He is in fact, “greater than the Temple” which is a major point:

At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn and to eat. But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day. But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him; How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests? Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless? But I say unto you, that in this place is one greater than the temple.

But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless. For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day. (Matthew 12:1-eight)

Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. (Matthew 23:36-38)

Jews not of faith in Jesus are not in the Covenant any longer because they have rejected their Messiah but God still has a plan for the nation of Israel and its people in prophetic fulfillment:

Jesus saith unto them, did ye never read in the scriptures, the stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them. But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet. (Matthew 21:42-46)

What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, just as it is written, “BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.” Brethren, my heart’s desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. For not knowing about God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. (Romans 9:30-10:4)

I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. . . .(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. . . .I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? . . . For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again. (Romans 11:1-2, 8, 11-23)

But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: (Hebrews 8:6-10)

[volgadon]

Jews with the last name Kohen or Cohen or Cohn are male line descendants of Aaron and are Levites. Even now they have certain offerings they take.

Also Kogen, Kaganovitch, Katz, Kaplan, Kaplanovitch, Kaplanovsky, Rappoport, Kahana, Kahane, Hadad, Abo, Azulai, Abrish, Cohen Tanoudji, Cohen Almajrabi, Cohen Melamed, Cohen Yonatan, Cohen Toma, Mazah, and others.

[saemo]

I had not really deeply considered what not having a temple meant for Jews except as a symbol of their religion and their commitment to God, but a comment in an article about ritual purity made me wonder about the far reaching implications it might mean even on a practical level when it was no longer possible to participate in sin offerings and such to regain ritual purity, the implication being that they were unable to atone for sin (or have the sacrifices that atoned for them). Did this mean they were then in a perpetual state of sin and/or ritual impurity? Plus it makes me wonder how those who were not able to attend temple events due to distance, health or financial restrictions were able to manage. There must have been created ways to compensate otherwise the lack would eventually lead to an entire nation of ritually impure. It makes understandable the extreme measures taken to avoid contamination even by mistake, but eventually given enough time contamination must occur especially if one associated with Gentiles...and then wouldn't one's ritual impurity be passed on to others (and would they make those coming in contact impure as well?). So what replaced the temple ordinances/sacrifices?

Yom Kippur, which they don't view as a replacement but a continuation, until the temple is rebuilt.

[saemo]

Jesus lamented the destruction of Jerusalem, but the temple, He described as being torn down and rebuilt in three days. We of course see in Jesus the fulfillment of the Temple. The atoning sacrifice Perfected in and through Him, and our meditation between heaven and earth, coming through Him.

Hope that helps.

[coolrok7]

The implication for Jews without Jesus, even in the context of observing Yom Kippur, even looking forward to the rebuilding of the Temple (if that actually happens), is now irrelevant in the context of having their sin forgiven. Sin forgiven is based on the shed blood of Jesus whom they as a nation and individuals continue to reject Him as Mashiach (Messiah).

Those who are descendants of Aaron and what that meant in the valid days of the Temple no longer is as the Temple was fulfilled in Jesus when He dismissed His spirit at His death:

After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst. Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth. When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost. The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away. Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him. But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs: But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe. For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken. And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced. (John 19:29-37)

And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many. So when the centurion and those with him, who were guarding Jesus, saw the earthquake and the things that had happened, they feared greatly, saying, “Truly this was the Son of God!” (Matthew 27:50-54)

[volgadon]

Yom Kippur, which they don't view as a replacement but a continuation, until the temple is rebuilt.

Substitution would be a more precise understanding.

[Calm]

Coolrok, I am interested only in what Jews themselves believe about the lack of the temple, not others' views about them. Please don't derail this thread with such preachings, start your own if you feel there is a need, thank you.

[coolrok7]

Thanks for clarifying that. For my perspective then, anything wrong with what I was saying?

[volgadon]

Here is an interesting Hasidic take on man and the temple, or rather, man as the temple. He is both the ultimate substitute and ultimate form of the temple

It is by means of the Torah that God causes His shekhinah to dwell within A human being. Thus Scripture says: "Let them make Me a sanctuary that I may dwell within them" (Exod. 25:. It is known that the light of the Infinite, blessed be He, shines forth and dwells in the letters of Torah. When a person attaches his inner life-force and his words to the Torah, that life within him is bound to the portion of divinity that shines forth from Torah's letters. Such is the case of one who studies with this intent, and has no ulterior motivations or extraneous goals. This person is himself also called a "sanctuary," for by means of the longing and joy that reach Him from such service, God contracts His shekhinah so that it may enter that man. Just as the Creator contracted His shekhinah so that it was able to be present in the collective Temple, coming down between the two staves of the ark (even though the very heavens of heaven cannot contain Him!), so does He do in the individual sanctuary within the person, because of His great longing for Israel. Such a one merits to be a "chariot" for the Creator, Who enables His shekhinah to be present in the two chambers of that person's heart, which are "thy two breasts," the two staves of the ark, and the two tablets, of which Scripture says: "Write them upon the tablet of your heart" (Prov. 3:3). This was God's chief intent in commanding both the tabernacle and the Temple: to cause His presence to dwell in that individual Temple which is man. The first and second Temples, once they were built, operated for all, through people's appearance there on festivals. Thus Scripture says: "All of your males will be seen" (Deut. 16:16). They would draw forth the holy spirit from their visit there, each one bringing the presence of the shekhinah into himself so that he would become a sanctuary and Temple. This was the true dwelling of the shekhinah between the two staves of the ark: the two chambers of the heart. Thus the left chamber too, by being included in the right, becomes a chariot for the Creator and a place where His glory dwells. The presence is found in the two chambers equally; therefore Scripture says "between the two staves."...

As long as a person still thinks of himself as something, he will necessarily have limits, for everything that exists has some limit. God cannot dwell in such a person, since He is infinite and without limit, and that person is a bounded one. You have ro be like the place of the ark, which took up no space at all, so fully humbled that you see yourself as nothing, not a being at all. Then you can be called "nothing," and the Creator who is called "no limit" or endless can contract Himself into you. Understand this. This is the meaning of "I shall be unto them a small sanctuary" (Ezek. 11:16): Even after the destruction of the collective Temple I will be a sanctuary for those who make themselves small; for those who are humble "I shall dwell with the lowly in spirit" (Isa. 57:15)...

Matter should not be so prideful as to consider itself real being, since all of man's actions, his mind, and his good qualities are nothing but God, blessed be He, that portion of divinity which has been placed within him. Were this lifeforce from above to leave him, he would remain still as a stone or a clod. Everything is from God, as we have already stated. One who studies His Torah must make his chief goal one of service, of cleaving to Him and being a nest or a Temple where His blessed shekhinah, which is called a bird, may dwell. Thus "like a bird wandered from his nest, so is a man who wanders from his home" (Prov. 27: is interpreted by the Zohar that the "bird" refers to the shekhinah and the "man" to God. Since the Temple was destroyed, the shekhinah has wandered from her nest, and God Himself has no more than the four ells of halakhah, the lesser sanctuary in the person who has attained humility.-Menahem Nahum of Chernobyl, 'The Light of the Eyes," trans. Arthur Green, pp. 73-75.

[volgadon]

If you'll allow me a slight derail, this is a great quote.

All the national commandments associated with Eretz Yisrael, and particularly with the Temple, the focusing of the divine service, out of all the broadest and most spiritual ideals, in this simple and natural framework that even a child can understand—this is one of the most basic expressions of the nature of life in its fullness, which links the lofty and the lowly. Thus it raises the lowly instincts and refines them, and lowers the lofty ideals that they may be merged with life. This is the goal of the offering of sacrifices, which, in its development, must be concentrated particularly in one place, singled out from all humanity, where "many nations and kingdoms will gather to serve the Lord" (Ps. 102:23).

-Abraham Isaac Kook "The Lights of Penitence, The Moral Principles, Lights of Holiness, Essays, Letters, and Poems," p. 382

Edited December 5, 2011 by volgadon

[Robert F. Smith]

Thanks for clarifying that. For my perspective then, anything wrong with what I was saying?

Yeh. You neglected to mention Malachi 3:3, III Nephi 24:3, D&C 13, and 128:24, on the use to which the future temple in Jerusalem will be put. You are also unaware of the promise to the Jews in Romans 11. Finally, you are unaware of the recognition in the D&C of lineal descendants of Aaron having authority even to this day (D&C 68 and 107).