The Spirit And The Body

[Questing Beast]

There is an object lesson I've seen used in the church several times. It is designed to teach the relationship between the spirit and the body. The teacher would hold up a glove and say that represents the body. The teacher would then hold up his/her hand and say that it is the spirit. He/she would then explain that the the glove/body can't do anything by itself but with the hand/spirit inside, it could then move.

Its a simple analogy and it made sense to me for a long time until I I started learning about human biology. After everything I've learned about the human body, there seems to be an explanation for how most things work, even at the cellular level. All the physiology is governed by natural laws. This got me wondering where the spirit fits into all this. Does the body really need the spirit like the glove analogy tells us? Is there any room for a spirit to be necessary in living things?

A spirit does not need a mortal body, being immortal: and even the term "spirit" is to me a flawed concept: I believe that we are already fully functioning, immortal, complete "souls" and our bodies are perfect and immortal (I am not talking about the body tapping away at this keyboard).

But what does seem logical to me is that a spirit experiences mortality like a virtual reality game: while the connection remains unbroken, the spirit receives all the impressions and experiences of mortality via the brain: the brain receives input from the five senses and responds; and the spirit is more or less absorbed by the experience while it lasts - much as our sleeping mind is inescapably absorbed in the dream worlds we move around in while the physical body is largely disconnected. The spirit isn't contained in the physical body in any literal sense: anymore than our bodies are contained by the programming of a computer game that we are interfaced with. I do not hold a concept that our spirits are conscious and manipulative of our mortal bodies; rather, the interface is more like a dreaming one. And when we die we wake up, or when we wake up, we die. It makes no difference which way is which....

[elguanteloko]

I'm saying that the only thing that makes one clump of matter mathematically distinguishable from any other clump of matter is the information content stored in that matter. There is no scientific experiment you could possibly conduct to distinguish one electron from another electron, except for the information stored within it, such as its energy, momentum, position, etc. If you took all the information from your body and moved it to another clump of matter, then that other clump of matter would be mathematically indistinguishable from you, and thus would be you. This is what happens during teleportation. (Scientists have already teleported small groups of atoms, so this is all standard physics, but teleporting something as large as a human would be infeasible with any conceivable technology.)

What makes you or I distinct individuals is not the matter itself, but the information stored in that matter. So if there is anything within us that is a "spirit," it would be that information. So I'm saying that even though we know that our bodies do not need an inner "puppeteer" to function, there is according to modern physics something within the matter of our bodies that makes each of us an individual, and that could be called a "spirit." Also, if there is an "other us" that survives death, then that "us" must be a "backup copy" of the informational content of the matter in our brains. Otherwise, when our brains die, the information contained in our brain is lost.

I'm sorry, I don't want to sound offensive or rude but I still find what you are saying very contradictory.

If spirit is information and momentum and energy are information, but momentum and energy are not the same thing, how is it that spirit is momentum and not momentum (i.e. energy)?

Also, I don't think you really mean that we have information or that atoms really posses information. Information such as position are not properties of electrons but the relationship between an electron relative to other things. What makes me me and you you aren't the specific particles, we agree. What makes us different is the arrangements of those atoms and particles and we express these differences in information... but to say that we ARE information or that we HAVE information is just weird... and it is even weirder to say information is spirit.

BTW, I don't really understand what physicists really mean by "information" when they say stuff like this. As I see you using it doesn't seem to make much sense to me and I hope they don't use it in the sense you are using it.

[shalamabobbi]

The information in the Human genome fits onto a CD.

The information that distinguishes one human from another within the genome is about 10 MB.

[jo1952]

Think of a situation where there is no law and thus no eternal consequences to our behavior. We have no agency to choose God in this case because we are never given the chance to choose in the first place. No matter what we did, in the end Lucifer would make the choice for us. Think of it as attending a great school, perhaps some students devote themselves to learning just because they are curious but there is no real structure to the institution, no organized lessons, no one trained to be teachers that we can seek out for instruction. At the end of our attendance we all line up and are all granted the same diploma of graduation no matter what we have done...including those who chose to devote their efforts solely to making others' lives a living he-ll. And there is no appeal to some outside force to either interfere or judge us on our merits, etc. And remember this place is set up without consequences so even if one overindulges or commits horrors or if one is kind and generous to others there is no aftermath, life continues on just the same; certainly no one is helped by any positive behaviour, no one suffers because they chosen something that would be destructive in our world.

In what way can free will be said to exist in such a place?

Interesting! I would say that any action we take which is based upon choice is still an act of free will UNLESS our actions are pre-programed by someone else; at which point we would really just be automatons. I see Satan's plan as one which simply did not allow us NOT to believe and NOT to sin so that there would have been nothing to prevent us from returning to Father's presence. Hence, no faith would have been required, and there would not have been a need for a savior. Thus, we WOULD have been functioning more as automatons since there would never have been a need for us to make choices between good and evil. It would have been like one huge Garden of Eden....though I haven't figured out how we could have procreated and filled the earth so that all of us would have had the chance to gain a physcial body. Interesting stuff to contemplate. To try to see what this really would have looked like makes my head hurt, and still does not get me to the point of seeing the role which natural law would have taken.

Regards (and thank you for sharing your thoughts!!),

jo

Edited October 29, 2011 by jo1952

[Calm]

I actually don't think that it is an issue of free will that is being discussed in the scriptures, but rather agency and accountability, iow it is all about learning and unless there is direct cause and effect between action and reaction, learning cannot take place. Lucifer's plan would have removed the law, which removes cause and effect, defeating the plan of salvation as there would be no progression, just a bunch of immature, carnal groupies worshipping Lucifer....or at least that was his vision IMO.

While there is a substantial portion of the population so fearful that they would be willing to become drones to avoid the risk of failure, I think there is a much larger portion that would envision their ultimate lifestyle as some kind of endless frat party without having to endure the hangovers and cleanup and even worse fallout if they've foolishly or maliciously committed any criminal acts. If this was what Lucifer was offering, I think many would jump at the chance and then be so resentful at being deprived of it, they would be willing to rebel against God.

OTOH, I don't see those who are so fearful of failure or of losing their chance at heaven that they were willing to turn themselves essentially into mind controlled zombies turning around when God vetoed the idea and rebelling, thus forfeiting any chance at heaven. Why if it was so important to them would they then just give it up because of resentment? Wouldn't they prefer having a chance at exaltation and an almost guarantee of a wonderful existence even in the telestial kingdom over an absolute guarantee of eternal outer darkness with no chance of happiness or progression as sons of perdition as the followers of Lucifer chose to be? I just don't see anyone, knowing the Father as they must have, believing they could force him to accept their way of doing things, rebellion must have meant an acceptance of he-ll as the known outcome of their rebellion, IMO.

Edited October 29, 2011 by calmoriah

[Cobalt-70]

The information in the Human genome fits onto a CD.

The information that distinguishes one human from another within the genome is about 10 MB.

If that were all that distinguished one human from another, then you and your twin would be the same person. I'm talking about quantum information, which is measured in qbits. The total number of qbits in your body is an astronomically large number.

[Cobalt-70]

If spirit is information and momentum and energy are information, but momentum and energy are not the same thing, how is it that spirit is momentum and not momentum (i.e. energy)?

Also, I don't think you really mean that we have information or that atoms really posses information. Information such as position are not properties of electrons but the relationship between an electron relative to other things. What makes me me and you you aren't the specific particles, we agree. What makes us different is the arrangements of those atoms and particles and we express these differences in information... but to say that we ARE information or that we HAVE information is just weird... and it is even weirder to say information is spirit.

BTW, I don't really understand what physicists really mean by "information" when they say stuff like this. As I see you using it doesn't seem to make much sense to me and I hope they don't use it in the sense you are using it.

As to the first (and last) question, momentum and energy are both items of quantum information. Quantum information is the physical information held in a quantum system. Quantitatively, quantum information is measured in qbits. Each qbit of quantum information is related to some element of the quantum physical state, such as energy, elapsed time, momentum, or position, or spin polarity. One thing about information is that because of the Second Law of Thermodynamics, information is only created, never destroyed. Thus, if Spirit is information, that means that it is eternal.

As to the second point, if you say that we merely "have" information, but are not information, then you are saying that the thing that makes us "us" is the protons, neutrons, and electrons that comprise us. But these protons, neutrons, and electrons are interchangeable. There is nothing special about them. You could model the universe as if all the protons in your body were exchanging themselves with all the protons in my body a thousand times per second, and you would have exactly the same laws of nature. It is only the quantum information stored in that matter that distinguishes one person from another person, or one thing from another thing. The proof that this is the case is in quantum teleportation. Teleportation means that you extract all the quantum information from one clump of matter and transmit it through space to another clump of matter. the second clump of matter then becomes mathematically indistinguishable from the original clump of matter. It is the original clump of matter. If you were to be teleported, your body would be reconstituted in a new location, yet you would still be you (meaning that no experiment could be performed that could prove otherwise) because what comprises you is the quantum information in your body.

[shalamabobbi]

If that were all that distinguished one human from another, then you and your twin would be the same person. I'm talking about quantum information, which is measured in qbits. The total number of qbits in your body is an astronomically large number.

And I was refering to the genome, not the human body.

How the genome acts as a seed to create the body is too complex to understand. If it is chaotic then small changes in the seed can account for great differences in the final product, but since all bodies are the "same" in basic form and feature it is hard to surmise by what means the brain should be the exception to that rule.

If we had been exchanged as babies would we have become each other? To what extent does the chaotic path we follow affect who we are thereafter? Nature vs nurture and now we add the spirit into the mix. What determines the variation between people if there is no spirit?

I am not debating anyone with my posts, just reflecting in public on the board..

[elguanteloko]

As to the first (and last) question, momentum and energy are both items of quantum information. Quantum information is the physical information held in a quantum system. Quantitatively, quantum information is measured in qbits. Each qbit of quantum information is related to some element of the quantum physical state, such as energy, elapsed time, momentum, or position, or spin polarity. One thing about information is that because of the Second Law of Thermodynamics, information is only created, never destroyed. Thus, if Spirit is information, that means that it is eternal.

Irrelevant. If 'spirit' is what can't be destroyed but will always exist (whatever that gets to be) then it means it is eternal. And? This is meaningless because: A, we don't know what is 'eternal' (or what 'eternal' is) exactly, and B, we don't know what a soul is so as to say it is eternal so postulating what it could imaginably be is rather pointless. If there is ANYTHING that we can possibly conceive as being 'eternal' the religious can always say "That! That is what is the soul!" but that doesn't give it much credibility, does it? I will slowly move on from this suggestion of yours because: A, your use of "information" as pertaining your previous comments are meaningless (and incoherent, don't forget that), and B, spiritual speculation of the type you are handling here is both boring because it is useless and very unreliable.

As to the second point, if you say that we merely "have" information, but are not information, then you are saying that the thing that makes us "us" is the protons, neutrons, and electrons that comprise us.

There is a reason why the history of the French revolution isn't explained with physics. Any guess as to why? Because it makes no sense. Saying "we" are information is trying to explain being in terms of physics and that's not how it works. Can you explain ideas with physical phenomena? I don't think you can. Your body is your protons and the structure they are arranged in, but "what you are" isn't talked with any arrangement nor with physics because we don't mean "the atoms people are made up of" when we speak of people. Your atoms don't have rights, you do. Your atoms don't feel love, you do. Your information doesn't speak, you do. Your information doesn't feel love, you do. There is a break no one has been able to breach between the physical characteristics of the letters you are reading and the meaning that you 'get' from them.

But these protons, neutrons, and electrons are interchangeable. There is nothing special about them.

"Special?" By that you mean... If I own 20 protons that are in front of me, if you change those protons for other 20 protons with the exact same information, is what I have in front of me what I owned? No. For all practical purposes I own what is now in front of me (since all the information is the same) but it is clear that these are NOT the 20 protons I owned.

You could model the universe as if all the protons in your body were exchanging themselves with all the protons in my body a thousand times per second, and you would have exactly the same laws of nature. It is only the quantum information stored in that matter that distinguishes one person from another person, or one thing from another thing.

You need to make up your mind. Either there is "quantum information stored in that matter" or that matter is the information. It seems now that you are moving towards saying that information is NOT matter but that there are properties we describe with information, which is progress, IMHO.

The proof that this is the case is in quantum teleportation. Teleportation means that you extract all the quantum information from one clump of matter and transmit it through space to another clump of matter. the second clump of matter then becomes mathematically indistinguishable from the original clump of matter.

Sure, and "1 apple" isn't mathematically distinguishable from "1 computer" when their quantity is being represented with the number "1".

It is the original clump of matter.

You really aren't taking this conversation seriously, are you? "Clump of matter A with information P. P is sent to clump of matter B. Clump of matter A = Clump of matter B. I kicked clump of matter A yesterday. Therefore, I kicked clump of matter B yesterda." Do you think this is a proper inference? I hope you don't.

If you were to be teleported, your body would be reconstituted in a new location, yet you would still be you (meaning that no experiment could be performed that could prove otherwise) because what comprises you is the quantum information in your body.

...once again, what you are saying sounds to me as "what comprises your information is the quantum information in your information" if I take what you are saying seriously.