inquiringmind Posted October 16, 2011 Posted October 16, 2011 Were all the Old Testament Prophets baptized Christians?Did they all know that Christ was coming in the flesh to redeem them from their sins?
Zakuska Posted October 16, 2011 Posted October 16, 2011 (edited) Did they all know that Christ was coming in the flesh to redeem them from their sins?Of course they did...Hebrews 4:22 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.Galatians 3:88 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. Edited October 16, 2011 by Zakuska
inquiringmind Posted October 16, 2011 Author Posted October 16, 2011 Of course they did...Hebrews 4:22 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.Galatians 3:88 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.The word "Gospel" means "good new," and most commentators would say that these New Testament passages allude to no more than a dimly perceived Old Testament hope.Is there anything in latter day revelation that's a little clearer and more explicit?Did Jonah and Solomon know that Jesus was gonna die for their sins, and were they baptized into His death (like the Nephites were)?
Freedom Posted October 16, 2011 Posted October 16, 2011 Unfortunately, we would have to ask Jonah and Solomon these questions as what remains of their history is rather scant. It would be consistent with LDS doctrine, however, to conclude that they had a full understanding of the doctrines of the gospel. I would argue that, since, Christ is so central to the gospel plan, they had to have known.
inquiringmind Posted October 16, 2011 Author Posted October 16, 2011 It would be consistent with LDS doctrine, however, to conclude that they had a full understanding of the doctrines of the gospel. I would argue that, since, Christ is so central to the gospel plan, they had to have known. That's what I'm asking.They were Prophets, but does that mean they knew?I seem to remember reading something somewhere to the effect that all true Prophets knew, but I don't remember where (D&C, JS Bible Commentary, J of D)?
Freedom Posted October 16, 2011 Posted October 16, 2011 Well, since this doctrine is central to the plan of salvation, not only would they have known, but all members of the church would have known. the Book of Mormon makes this quit plan, don't you think?
Zakuska Posted October 16, 2011 Posted October 16, 2011 If they had the scriptures with the Genesis account in them of course they knew of the Messiah. What was the first thing Adam did when he left the Garden?
altersteve Posted October 16, 2011 Posted October 16, 2011 It is LDS doctrine that all the prophets, including Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Enoch, Elijah, Jeremiah, Lehi, and all others who lived in OT times, knew and preached of Christ. The Book of Moses, as well as the Book of Mormon, seems to indicate this where it refers to Jesus Christ by name. OT prophets knew a great deal more about the gospel than one would think by only reading the Bible. The fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ was given by God to each of the above prophets just as it was given to Joseph Smith.
inquiringmind Posted October 16, 2011 Author Posted October 16, 2011 (edited) Well, since this doctrine is central to the plan of salvation, not only would they have known, but all members of the church would have known. the Book of Mormon makes this quit plan, don't you think?It seems quit clear that after 600 b.c. every member of the Nephite Church here in America knew this, but doesn't it say somewhere in the BOM that things were made plain to them because they were far away in a strange land (or something like that)?I don't remember the exact book, chapter, and verse, but I recall reading something like that.I'm asking about Old Testament, Old World Prophets.Were these things plain to them? Edited October 16, 2011 by inquiringmind
inquiringmind Posted October 16, 2011 Author Posted October 16, 2011 (edited) It is LDS doctrine that all the prophets, including Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Enoch, Elijah, Jeremiah, Lehi, and all others who lived in OT times, knew and preached of Christ.Thank you, but where does it say that? Edited October 16, 2011 by inquiringmind
Freedom Posted October 16, 2011 Posted October 16, 2011 Moses 6:52 And he also said unto him: If thou wilt turn unto me, and hearken unto my voice, and believe, and repent of all thy transgressions, and be abaptized, even in water, in the name of mine Only Begotten Son, who is full of bgrace and truth, which is Jesus cChrist, the only dname which shall be given under heaven, whereby esalvation shall come unto the children of men, ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, asking all things in his name, and whatsoever ye shall ask, it shall be given you.Clearly Adam knew. It is LDS doctrine that they knew and all those that followed them knew. It is, as I stated earlier, fundamental to the plan of Salvation to have known.
inquiringmind Posted October 16, 2011 Author Posted October 16, 2011 (edited) Moses 6:52And he also said unto him: If thou wilt turn unto me, and hearken unto my voice, and believe, and repent of all thy transgressions, and be abaptized, even in water, in the name of mine Only Begotten Son, who is full of bgrace and truth, which is Jesus cChrist, the only dname which shall be given under heaven, whereby esalvation shall come unto the children of men, ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, asking all things in his name, and whatsoever ye shall ask, it shall be given you.Clearly Adam knew. It is LDS doctrine that they knew and all those that followed them knew. It is, as I stated earlier, fundamental to the plan of Salvation to have known.I read the whole chapter, and it seems clear that Adam knew these things, and taught them to his children, but wasn't the knowledge lost somewhere in the centuries that followed?Earlier on this thread, you saidUnfortunately, we would have to ask Jonah and Solomon these questions as what remains of their history is rather scant.Does that mean they may not have known?Where does it say that all the Prophets, in every generation, had this revealed to them?(And I'm still thinking of that passage in the BOM that says the precious things were made plain to the Nephites because they were in a strange land, cut off from the land of their fathers, but I can't remember where that is--can anyone help?) Edited October 16, 2011 by inquiringmind
shalamabobbi Posted October 16, 2011 Posted October 16, 2011 Were all the Old Testament Prophets baptized Christians?Did they all know that Christ was coming in the flesh to redeem them from their sins?1 Corinthians 10:1-4 1Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
inquiringmind Posted October 16, 2011 Author Posted October 16, 2011 (edited) In context, isn't that talking about the generation that crossed the Red Sea, and perished in the wilderness?Verse 5 says "nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of the; their bodies were scattered over the wilderness."Paul then goes on to warn the Corinthians about the consequences of following their bad example.Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved. Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written, " The people sat down to eat and drink, and stood up to play." Nor let us act immorally, as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day. Nor let us try the Lord, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the serpents. Nor grumble, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the destroyer. Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall. (verses 6-12.)Everything said here has reference to the generation that came up out of Egypt with Moses.I'm asking about Old Testament prophets who lived centuries later, and I don't believe the answer to my question can be found in the Old or New Testaments.My question is whether it can be found in Latter day revelation, or the teachings of Joseph Smith?Did prophets like Jonah, Joel, and Haggai know that Jesus was coming in the flesh to die for their sins? Edited October 16, 2011 by inquiringmind
shalamabobbi Posted October 16, 2011 Posted October 16, 2011 (And I'm still thinking of that passage in the BOM that says the precious things were made plain to the Nephites because they were in a strange land, cut off from the land of their fathers, but I can't remember where that is--can anyone help?)http://bookofmormononline.net/#/land-of-nephi/26
Questing Beast Posted October 16, 2011 Posted October 16, 2011 It is more correct to say that the Messiah to come was known by the OT prophets, than to assert that any of them knew what his name would be. Only the Lehites in our pre-Christian scriptures knew his name before his birth. There is no evidence for OT prophets having prior knowledge of his mortal identity....
inquiringmind Posted October 16, 2011 Author Posted October 16, 2011 It is more correct to say that the Messiah to come was known by the OT prophets, than to assert that any of them knew what his name would be. Only the Lehites in our pre-Christian scriptures knew his name before his birth. There is no evidence for OT prophets having prior knowledge of his mortal identity....His mortal name aside, is there any evidence from the standard works that all the Old Testament prophets knew about the incarnation and atonement.When Jonah heard the voice of God telling him to preach repentance to his nation's enemies, and he turned his back and caught the first ship to Tarshish, is it possible he just didn't know that the God who spoke to him would come in the flesh to die for his sins?When Solomon turned to idols after God appeared to him three times, is it possible he didn't know?(And do the standard works say anything about whether Solomon is saved or lost?)
inquiringmind Posted October 16, 2011 Author Posted October 16, 2011 http://bookofmormono...and-of-nephi/26Thank you.I don't think that was the passage I was thinking of, but I'll re-read the book of Jacob and see if I can find it.
TAO Posted October 16, 2011 Posted October 16, 2011 inquiringmind, the chapters of Isiah speaking Messianically probably are a good example of Old Testatement prophets knowing of Christ.Now, whether they knew his name or not, I am not sure. In fact, considering that the word 'Christ' in and of itself is a generic name... it would be difficult to tell. It'd be like saying 'Messiah' or 'Savior'... not a specific name.But yeah... as to whether they knew of him... I'd say so.I can look for more references if you would like... but Messianic Isaiah is probably the verse that best shows it.Hope this helps,TAO
shalamabobbi Posted October 16, 2011 Posted October 16, 2011 Thank you.I don't think that was the passage I was thinking of, but I'll re-read the book of Jacob and see if I can find it.Just google online book of mormon and as many of the words of the passage as you can remember and it'll pop up unless of course you are remembering it wrong.
TAO Posted October 17, 2011 Posted October 17, 2011 Here ya go with the 'strange land' thing:http://lds.org/scriptures/bofm/alma/13.22-23?lang=eng#21I hope that's it =).
inquiringmind Posted October 17, 2011 Author Posted October 17, 2011 (edited) Here ya go with the 'strange land' thing:http://lds.org/scrip...-23?lang=eng#21I hope that's it =).That's it.And they are made known unto us in plain terms, that we may understand, that we cannot err; and this because of our being wanderers in a strange land; therefore, we are thus highly favored, for we have these glad tidings declared unto us in all parts of our vineyard. Alma 13:23.Does it follow that the incarnation and atonement wasn't made plain to Solomon, Jonah, and other Old Testament Prophets?Is it possible they may not have known about these doctrines?Is there anything in the standards works, or the teachings of Joseph Smith that would require us to believe they did? Edited October 17, 2011 by inquiringmind
TAO Posted October 17, 2011 Posted October 17, 2011 inquringmind,http://lds.org/scriptures/bofm/3-ne/20.24?lang=eng#23http://lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/20.26?lang=eng#25http://lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/138.49?lang=eng#48http://lds.org/scriptures/bofm/hel/8.16?lang=eng#15and from the OT itself:http://lds.org/scriptures/jst/jst-luke/16.17?lang=eng#16http://lds.org/scriptures/ot/2-kgs/17.13?lang=eng#12So yeah... pretty much... even mainstream Christians believe it to some extent (though to what extent, I know not =P).
Nathair/|\ Posted October 17, 2011 Posted October 17, 2011 That's it.And they are made known unto us in plain terms, that we may understand, that we cannot err; and this because of our being wanderers in a strange land; therefore, we are thus highly favored, for we have these glad tidings declared unto us in all parts of our vineyard. Alma 13:23.So, now Joseph is plagiarizing Heinline?
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