Old Testament Prophets

[zerinus]

What evidence can you show that he did just that? There isn't any real evidence to show that Pharisees or Sadducees accepted baptism by John. Like the cave it can racked up mere probability.

While it is true that most of them didn’t, there is evidence that some of them did. Firstly, the fact that John called them “generation of vipers” doesn’t mean that he made an exception of them, compared to others. He used the same expression to address other Jews who came to him to be baptized, who had been sinners, like harlots, publicans, soldiers, and rich people who would not share their wealth:

Luke 3:

7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

9 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

10 And the people asked him, saying, What shall we do then [to repent]?

11 He answereth and saith unto them, He that hath two coats, let him impart to him that hath none; and he that hath meat, let him do likewise.

12 Then came also publicans to be baptized, and said unto him, Master, what shall we do [to repent]?

13 And he said unto them, Exact no more than that which is appointed you.

14 And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do [to repent]? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages.

That doesn’t mean that he didn’t baptize them. He simply told them that they needed to repent. Those people hadn’t gone to him for entertainment. They had gone there to be baptized, believing him to be a man sent from God. They had recognized virtue in his baptism, and wanted to be part of it. But the baptism wouldn’t do them any good if they didn’t repent, so he uses rather blunt language to tell them that they needed to repent. He uses the same expression with the Pharisees:

Matthew 3:

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism [i.e. came to be baptized of him], he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Verse 8 implies that he did baptize them (as he had baptized the others), but he warned them that being baptized wasn’t enough, they needed to show “fruits” for their repentance—i.e. verbal repentance wasn’t good enough, they needed do something about it, not just say they had repented. The words of Jesus also affirms that the sinners who came to John for baptism in good faith were baptized:

Matthew 21:

31 ... Jesus saith unto them [the Pharisees], Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

32 For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.

I don’t believe that John had a mandate to refuse baptism to anybody who came to him wishing to be baptized, but he warned them that they needed to repent for that baptism to do them any good. The burden of ensuring that one is not baptized unworthily rests ultimately on the person being baptized (Mormon 9:29), not with John, or even the Church. The Church does its best to ensure that someone is not baptized unworthily; but if someone is determined to be baptized, the Church can't really stop them.

Edited October 20, 2011 by zerinus

[Ron Beron]

I don’t believe that John had a mandate to refuse baptism to anybody who came to him wishing to be baptized, but he warned them that they needed to repent for that baptism to do them any good. The burden of ensuring that one is not baptized unworthily rests ultimately on the person being baptized (Mormon 9:29), not with John, or even the Church. The Church does its best to ensure that someone is not baptized unworthily; but if someone is determined to be baptized, the Church can't really stop them.

While I appreciate your effort I am still having trouble accepting that the "vipers" would respond to John's call to repentance and be baptized. Perhaps I am cynical. More importantly, if a member did decide to have been baptized it would have been an attempt to compromise John's power in some manner. They had too much to lose to accept this rural preacher, but they still could not ignore his following. I am reminded a bit of the following and power enjoyed by a "modern" contemporary; Rasputin (no qualitative comparison is meant).

[zerinus]

While I appreciate your effort I am still having trouble accepting that the "vipers" would respond to John's call to repentance and be baptized. Perhaps I am cynical. More importantly, if a member did decide to have been baptized it would have been an attempt to compromise John's power in some manner. They had too much to lose to accept this rural preacher, but they still could not ignore his following. I am reminded a bit of the following and power enjoyed by a "modern" contemporary; Rasputin (no qualitative comparison is meant).

Not sure what you mean by "members". "Members" of what? It seems to me that you are trying to impose a 20th century culture on 1st century Judaism. I am particularly baffled by your comparison with Rasputin. If you are thinking in those terms, then I am not surprised that we are talking past each other. I don't think there is a lot more that I can add to that.

[LeSellers]

Were all the Old Testament Prophets baptized Christians?

Did they all know that Christ was coming in the flesh to redeem them from their sins?

I believe they were, but it is impossible to prove from the scriptural records we have. (I do not believe they knew the anglicized word of Greek origin “Christ”, or “Christian”, they had their own perfectly good word we know as “Messiah”.) But there were baptized for the remission of sins and as their birth as sons of God. We read in the Pearl of Great Price, Moses, chapter six the following:

50 But God hath made known unto our fathers that all men must repent.

51 And he [God] called upon our father Adam by his own voice, saying: I am God; I made the world, and men before they were in the flesh. 52 And he also said unto him: If thou wilt turn unto me, and hearken unto my voice, and believe, and repent of all thy transgressions, and be baptized, even in water, in the name of mine Only Begotten Son, who is full of grace and truth, which is Jesus Christ, the only name which shall be given under heaven, whereby salvation shall come unto the children of men, ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, asking all things in his name, and whatsoever ye shall ask, it shall be given you.

53 And our father Adam spake unto the Lord, and said: Why is it that men must repent and be baptized in water? And the Lord said unto Adam: Behold I have forgiven thee thy transgression in the Garden of Eden. 54 Hence came the saying abroad among the people, that the Son of God hath atoned for original guilt, wherein the sins of the parents cannot be answered upon the heads of the children, for they are whole from the foundation of the world. 55 And the Lord spake unto Adam, saying: Inasmuch as thy children are conceived in sin, even so when they begin to grow up, sin conceiveth in their hearts, and they taste the bitter, that they may know to prize the good.

56 And it is given unto them to know good from evil; wherefore they are agents unto themselves, and I have given unto you another law and commandment. 57 Wherefore teach it unto your children, that all men, everywhere, must repent, or they can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God, for no unclean thing can dwell there, or dwell in his presence; for, in the language of Adam, Man of Holiness is his name, and the name of his Only Begotten is the Son of Man, even Jesus Christ, a righteous Judge, who shall come in the meridian of time.

58 Therefore I give unto you a commandment, to teach these things freely unto your children, saying: 59 That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory;

60 For by the water ye keep the commandment; by the Spirit ye are justified, and by the blood ye are sanctified; 61 Therefore it is given to abide in you; the record of heaven; the Comforter; the peaceable things of immortal glory; the truth of all things; that which quickeneth all things, which maketh alive all things; that which knoweth all things, and hath all power according to wisdom, mercy, truth, justice, and judgment.

62 And now, behold, I say unto you: This is the plan of salvation unto all men, through the blood of mine Only Begotten, who shall come in the meridian of time. 63 And behold, all things have their likeness, and all things are created and made to bear record of me, both things which are temporal, and things which are spiritual; things which are in the heavens above, and things which are on the earth, and things which are in the earth, and things which are under the earth, both above and beneath: all things bear record of me.

64 And it came to pass, when the Lord had spoken with Adam, our father, that Adam cried unto the Lord, and he was caught away by the Spirit of the Lord, and was carried down into the water, and was laid under the water, and was brought forth out of the water. 65 And thus he was baptized, and the Spirit of God descended upon him, and thus he was born of the Spirit, and became quickened in the inner man.

66 And he heard a voice out of heaven, saying: Thou art baptized with fire, and with the Holy Ghost. This is the record of the Father, and the Son, from henceforth and forever; 67 And thou art after the [Priesthood] order of him who was without beginning of days or end of years, from all eternity to all eternity. 68 Behold, thou art one in me, a son of God; and thus [through baptism] may all become my sons. Amen.

I point to my observation that “apostasy is a complex and wonderful (in the sense of ‘I wonder about that’) thing.” When the Jews (and all of Israel went into apostasy, especially in the early viii and ix, they (had already) lost much of their connection with the Adamic, Abrahamic, and Jacobian covenants, and the principles and doctrines of the Mosaic Law were easily and readily colored to omit the links to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

It is clear here that from the beginning, Adam knew of the requirement for baptism. He further received commandment that he teach his children these things. However, by the time of Noah, only a few centuries after Adam’s death, the entire posterity of Adam had divided into two camps: one followed Enoch (Noah’s grandfather), and the other Satan. Those who followed Enoch (and Noah) were taken to the City of Enoch, those who followed Satan were drowned in the Deluge. We must assume that baptism “crossed” the Flood with Noah and, especially, Shem, the great high priest (later known as Melchizedek). We lose the great bulk of the next millennium, but by the time of Abram/Abraham, even Melchizedek’s posterity in and around what would become Jerusalem, had followed Satan and rejected the Gospel of Christ. It was so bad that Abraham’s own father tried to sacrifice his son to his idol god.

God re-established His covenant through Abraham (and then Isaac and Jacob/Israel). There is no record of Abraham’s being baptized, but we should feel safe in assuming he followed this commandment, just as he followed the others.

11 And I will establish a covenant of circumcision with thee, and it shall be my covenant between me and thee, and thy seed after thee, in their generations; that thou mayest know for ever that children are not accountable before me until they are eight years old.

I can’t find it right now, but Joseph Smith taught that boys were circumcised at eight days of age to remind their parents that they should teach their children to be baptized at age eight, not just that they were not accountable until eight years old.

Moses 6:52And he also said unto him: If thou wilt turn unto me, and hearken unto my voice, and believe, and repent of all thy transgressions, and be abaptized, even in water, in the name of mine Only Begotten Son, who is full of bgrace and truth, which is Jesus cChrist, the only dname which shall be given under heaven, whereby esalvation shall come unto the children of men, ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, asking all things in his name, and whatsoever ye shall ask, it shall be given you.

Clearly Adam knew. It is LDS doctrine that they knew and all those that followed them knew. It is, as I stated earlier, fundamental to the plan of Salvation to have known.

I read the whole chapter, and it seems clear that Adam knew these things, and taught them to his children, but wasn't the knowledge lost somewhere in the centuries that followed?

Does that mean they may not have known?

Where does it say that all the Prophets, in every generation, had this revealed to them?

ANCIENT HISTORY OF THE MELCHIZEDEK PRIESTHOOD. The Melchizedek Priesthood is an eternal priesthood. Before mortality, God delegated authority and responsibility to worthy individuals. This holy priesthood was the means by which that action was taken. After this life, those who have been valiant and have honored their priesthood will continue to bear it and to have the responsibility to use it in serving others.

Adam, the first of the spirit children of God to live on earth, received the holy priesthood, with all its power, authority, and keys. "And thus all things were confirmed unto Adam, by an holy ordinance" (Moses 5:59). This authority was delegated to others in an unbroken chain from one prophet to another. “All the prophets had the Melchizedek Priesthood” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 181).

Abraham sought the blessings of his fathers and the right to be ordained to the priesthood. Because he had qualified himself for the priesthood, even though his own father had not, Abraham obtained the priesthood from Melchizedek, the king of Salem and a priest of God (Abr. 1:2-5). Melchizedek met Abraham and blessed him, and Abraham gave him a tenth part of all he had (Heb. 7:1-3). Melchizedek exercised mighty faith and used his priesthood to bring a people practicing iniquity to repentance. None was greater than he (Alma 13:17-19). Originally, the priesthood was known as the "Holy Priesthood, after the Order of the Son of God" (Doc&Cov 107:3). To avoid too frequent use of God's name, the Church in ancient days called the priesthood by the name of this noted priesthood leader, Melchizedek (Doc&Cov 107:2-4).

Moses received the Melchizedek Priesthood from his father-in-law, Jethro (Doc&Cov 84:6). Moses held the Melchizedek Priesthood until he was translated, at which time the keys of the greater priesthood went with him, and what remained with the people was an appendage to the Melchizedek Priesthood called the Aaronic Priesthood, a priesthood with limited authority. After the time of Moses, individual prophets were given the holy priesthood at various times by God, but it was restricted from the general populace.

The Book of Mormon reports that Nephite prophets held the priesthood called after the order of the Son of God, the Melchizedek Priesthood (Alma 13:10). Those who had the authority directed the work of God among the people (Alma 29:13).

The apostles were given the Melchizedek Priesthood by Jesus Christ while he ministered on earth. He gave them authority and responsibility to direct his Church. After Christ left, the apostles continued to officiate for him and conferred the Melchizedek Priesthood on others when it was appropriate (Eph. 4:11-13; Acts 1:22-26; see also Organization of the Church in New Testament Times). Over time, both the principles and the priesthood authority and keys were lost through apostasy.

Melchizedek Priesthood

The principle requirement of holding (and exercising) the Melchizedek Priesthood is legitimate membership (no trivial thing itself) in The Church of Jesus Christ. Entry into this church is through baptism. Ergo, the prophets, holders of the Melchizedek Priesthood, were baptized.

(And I'm still thinking of that passage in the BOM that says the precious things were made plain to the Nephites because they were in a strange land, cut off from the land of their fathers, but I can't remember where that is--can anyone help?)

Is this the one?

4 Wherefore, hearken, O my people, which are of the house of Israel, and give ear unto my words; for because the words of Isaiah are not plain unto you, nevertheless they are plain unto all those that are filled with the spirit of prophecy. But I give unto you a prophecy, according to the spirit which is in me; wherefore I shall prophesy according to the plainness which hath been with me from the time that I came out from Jerusalem with my father; for behold, my soul delighteth in plainness unto my people, that they may learn.

…

7 But behold, I proceed with mine own prophecy, according to my plainness; in the which I know that no man can err; nevertheless, in the days that the prophecies of Isaiah shall be fulfilled men shall know of a surety, at the times when they shall come to pass.

…

20 And now, my brethren, I have spoken plainly that ye cannot err. And as the Lord God liveth that brought Israel up out of the land of Egypt, and gave unto Moses power that he should heal the nations after they had been bitten by the poisonous serpents, if they would cast their eyes unto the serpent which he did raise up before them, and also gave him power that he should smite the rock and the water should come forth; yea, behold I say unto you, that as these things are true, and as the Lord God liveth, there is none other name given under heaven save it be this Jesus Christ, of which I have spoken, whereby man can be saved.

…

28 And now behold, my people, ye are a stiffnecked people; wherefore, I have spoken plainly unto you, that ye cannot misunderstand. And the words which I have spoken shall stand as a testimony against you; for they are sufficient to teach any man the right way; for the right way is to believe in Christ and deny him not; for by denying him ye also deny the prophets and the law.

Lehi

[LeSellers]

Any new insights?

Lehi

[Ron Beron]

Not sure what you mean by "members". "Members" of what? It seems to me that you are trying to impose a 20th century culture on 1st century Judaism. I am particularly baffled by your comparison with Rasputin. If you are thinking in those terms, then I am not surprised that we are talking past each other. I don't think there is a lot more that I can add to that.

Member is probably too anachronistic. I meant specifically a member of the Sadducees or Pharisees. I mention Rasputin because of his obvious comparison vis-a-vis John's charisma not to indicate their relative spiritual levels.