Martyrs Don'T Fight Back...

[Zakuska]

Critics of Joseph Smith make a huge deal over the fact, that he fled over the Mississippi and went into hiding after another round of trumped up charges were made against him. Calling him a coward, a traitor and what not. We all know that he bravely went back to Nauvoo and Carthage to face the charges.

Critics make an even bigger bru-ha-ha when the line "like a lamb to the slaughter" is attributed to this modern day Prophet of God, and the shrill crys can be heard from the pit... "Ole' Jo Smith the Mormon pedophile died in a Nuclear reactive Quake 4 style gib fest trying to take as many Saintly Christian pastors just doing their Christian duty down to hell with him as he could."

So I propose a test case for comparison, how do Christians Martyrs go like lambs to the slaughter?

One pretty recent and infamous Christian Martyr was Thomas Becket, The Arch bishop of Canterbury, The see of the Anglican church.

The story goes that there was a power struggle going on between Church/Rome and State/England. The King wants to unite his kingdom both secularly and religiously so he appoints his best friend Thomas as the new Arch Bishop of Canterbury. But Becket fought for church rights and wanted to serve God not the king. And wouldn't bow to the king, So the kings men bring him into account for himself. The king demanded Becket's loyalty, but Becket stood his ground. So the king stripped him of all his wealth along with his whole family and exiled them to France. They were there for six years.

Well with pressure applied by the Pope, the king finally relented and Becket returned to Canterbury in triumph... and promptly excommunicated 3 Bishops who had taken the Kings side. These Bishops on Christmas day then go and complain to the King and the king storms out of this court in a rage, cursing Thomas as he went. 4 Barons heard the king cursing and took an oath to avenge the kings honor, probably to score brownie points with the King.

So the stage is set. The 4 knights go to arrest Becket in his "Palace", but because they have no signed edict from the King he refuses to go with them. The knights leave for a moment, and Thomas monk's begin locking down the Abby and trying to skirt him out the back door to flee from the men. But the men returned wearing their full armor with swords in hand. Becket almost gets out but decides to turn and have a show down with the four knights instead and to protect his friends. And the rest is History.

You can watch this BBC special on the event here (its based on eye witness accounts):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cenyvBf52Vg&feature=related

Now the interesting part you will want to notice is that, Thomas doesn't go down like the typical Christian Martyr we are always hearing critics of the Church boast about. (ie Like a dumb sheep before the shearers, saying not a word).

He goes down provoking his attackers, shoving one of them to the ground and defending his friends.

Only then are the fatal blows to his head delivered.

Edited September 30, 2011 by Zakuska

[LeSellers]

As with many terms and concepts in "Christianity", "martyr" has undergone a radical change in meaning.

Evangelicals, particularly, are wont to modify the definitions of these words because it allows them to include and exclude, at will (theirs, of course), whomever they decide isn't toeing the party line. It makes them feel all warm and cuddly, being, by definition, the best of the best.

Oddly, they tell us that we have changed the terms, but time and again, we can show that Paul or Peter, or John employed these words in ways more closely aligned to our usage, but these demonstrations are rejected out-of-hand.

Lehi

Edited September 30, 2011 by LeSellers

[Jaybear]

To me the operative statement is:

The king demanded Becket's loyalty, but Becket stood his ground.

There are many accepted definitions of the term "martyr" I prefer the tightest definition, where one who would willingly face death rather than renounce their faith. By that definition, Smith was not a martyr.

For Smith, I see it as a problem that he lied about polygamy, even to his wife, rather than face the consequences of the doctrine.

To classify Smith as a martyr, you have to adopt a broad definition, which would include David Koresh, John SInger, Martin Luther King, and I suppose the persons that Joseph Smith shot during the attack (if they were killed).

If you want to believe Smith is a martyr, that is your business. But don't be so surprised and offended when not everyone agrees.

[Deborah]

For Smith, I see it as a problem that he lied about polygamy, even to his wife, rather than face the consequences of the doctrine.

Good grief, Jaybear, that is boorish even for you. I'm not going to rehash the arguments we've had many times about the fact that Emma knew and even endorsed some of Joseph's wives, but to say he chose to die for this reason is the ultimate ridiculous accusation. He died because he wouldn't deny his faith or his visions. Period.

[thesometimesaint]

Jaybear:

BAD FORM.

[Jaybear]

He died because he wouldn't deny his faith or his visions. Period.

Put aside your petty, personal attack ... I missed the part of the story where Smith was given an opportunity to live if he were to renounce his faith or his visions.

Oh and were is this coming from:

...but to say he chose to die for this reason is the ultimate ridiculous accusation.

I didn't say he "choose do die" for polygamy. I said he choose to keep it a secret out of concern for the consequences. That was a very pragmatic decision on his part.

Edited September 30, 2011 by Jaybear

[Jaybear]

Jaybear:

BAD FORM.

I get it. You are deeply offended because I don't consider Smith a martyr.

Would you rather I lie to mollify your feelings?

[altersteve]

To me the operative statement is:

There are many accepted definitions of the term "martyr" I prefer the tightest definition, where one who would willingly face death rather than renounce their faith. By that definition, Smith was not a martyr.

For Smith, I see it as a problem that he lied about polygamy, even to his wife, rather than face the consequences of the doctrine.

To classify Smith as a martyr, you have to adopt a broad definition, which would include David Koresh, John SInger, Martin Luther King, and I suppose the persons that Joseph Smith shot during the attack (if they were killed).

If you want to believe Smith is a martyr, that is your business. But don't be so surprised and offended when not everyone agrees.

A martyr is any person who dies for a cause, usually religious or political. Joseph Smith absolutely falls under this definition. He knew he was going to die and he went willingly.

[Jaybear]

A martyr is any person who dies for a cause, usually religious or political. Joseph Smith absolutely falls under this definition. He knew he was going to die and he went willingly.

That is your definition. Smith would certainly be a martyr under your definition, as would everyone that died as a result of the attacks on 911, including the criminals.

Here is the one I prefer:

Websters Online: : a person who voluntarily suffers death as the penalty of witnessing to and refusing to renounce a religion

WIKI: A martyr (Greek: μάρτυς, mártys, "witness"; stem μάρτυρ-, mártyr-) is somebody who suffers persecution and death for refusing to renounce, or accept, a belief or cause, usually religious.

Dictionary.com: a person who willingly suffers death rather than renounce his or her religion.

[Zakuska]

Intrestingly Becket was being charged with the same thing Joseph Smith was 'Treason'. This was the same charge brought against Jesus, the Jewish leaders cry can still be heard, 'No one is the King but Ceasar only'.

Also of intrest is the comparison of Becket to Christ in the Martyr tales recounted by the eye witnesses. This can be seen at about 7:30. "Becket turned and said, So you've come against me with weapons, have you?"

Mark 14

48 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Are ye come out, as against a thief, with swords and with staves to take me?

And here Im at a loss, because the critics said that making a comparison between a man and Jesus was blasphemous. Yet here the very words of Christ are put in the lips of the "martyr" to bolster his "marytr" status.

Edited September 30, 2011 by Zakuska

[Deborah]

"Websters Online: : a person who voluntarily suffers death as the penalty of witnessing to and refusing to renounce a religion."

Saying this doesn't fit Joseph Smith is not understanding a thing about his life. His entire life was witnessing his religion and refusing to renounce it, even the "dreaded" polygamy which he did not want to do but did out of obedience to a commandment. His stint in Liberty Jail is a testimony to his witnessing and endurance. Those who criticize the last hours of Joseph Smith do not understand the whole history of those events and I suggest as a start Truman Madsen's lectures and the Joseph Smith Papers Documentary which goes through the timeline and the intentions of the prophet at that time.

[Zakuska]

That is your definition. Smith would certainly be a martyr under your definition, as would everyone that died as a result of the attacks on 911, including the criminals.

Here is the one I prefer:

Becket wouldn't be a Martyr under that definition. He died in a power struggle with the King of England. It had nothing to do with his religion, but his pride and lust for power and the sovereignty of God.

Edited September 30, 2011 by Zakuska

[thesometimesaint]

Jaybear:

You are of course free to believe in any fool thing you want, and I'll defend your right to do that, as long as you allow me the right to believe any fool thing I want.

While this MB welcomes nonmembers you came onto an explicitly LDS forum, and insult the members here. Do you make it a habit of going into someone elses home, and insulting them?

[Jaybear]

Becket wouldn't be a Martyr under that definition. He died in a power struggle with the King of England. It had nothing to do with his religion, but his pride and lust for power.

Based on what you said, I would disagree. Earlier you said: "But Becket fought for church rights and wanted to serve God not the king. And wouldn't bow to the king, So the kings men bring him into account for himself. The king demanded Becket's loyalty, but Becket stood his ground."

Perhaps its debatable, but I didn't make up the definitions.

Jaybear:

You are of course free to believe in any fool thing you want, and I'll defend your right to do that, as long as you allow me the right to believe any fool thing I want.

While this MB welcomes nonmembers you came onto an explicitly LDS forum, and insult the members here. Do you make it a habit of going into someone elses home, and insulting them?

The only one who has been insulted on this thread is me. Deborah call me "Boorish". You accused me of showing "Poor form".

Moreover, I am a pragmatist. I see nothing inherently virtuous about being a martyr. So if you think I was insulting Smith by saying I don't consider him to be a martyr, you are mistaken.

[Zakuska]

Of intrest: at 9:20.

I am your arch Bishop gods 'anointed'." Becked said.

And he picked one of them up with one hand, and shook him and threw him to the ground."

Wow! Lamb to the slaughter indeed.

Edited September 30, 2011 by Zakuska

[Zakuska]

<deleted>

Edited September 30, 2011 by Zakuska

[stemelbow]

So Jaybear, are you saying that if Joseph renounced his religion instead of ordering the destruction of the printing press that the mob would have still killed him?

hmmm...or ar you saying the definition you quoted for martyr must somehow also imply that the person who is killed must be given by their killers the option to live by renouncing or be killd?

Whatever the case the twisting you seem to embrace in order to maintain your opinion is well, adorable.

[Zakuska]

Based on what you said, I would disagree. Earlier you said: "But Becket fought for church rights and wanted to serve God not the king. And wouldn't bow to the king, So the kings men bring him into account for himself. The king demanded Becket's loyalty, but Becket stood his ground."

Perhaps its debatable, but I didn't make up the definitions.

Have you watched the clip? Becket was being charged with 'Treason'. It was a power struggle just like I said.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Critics of Joseph Smith make a huge deal over the fact, that he fled over the Mississippi and went into hiding after another round of trumped up charges were made against him. Calling him a coward, a traitor and what not. We all know that he bravely went back to Nauvoo and Carthage to face the charges.

Critics make an even bigger bru-ha-ha when the line "like a lamb to the slaughter" is attributed to this modern day Prophet of God, and the shrill crys can be heard from the pit... "Ole' Jo Smith the Mormon pedophile died in a Nuclear reactive Quake 4 style gib fest trying to take as many Saintly Christian pastors just doing their Christian duty down to hell with him as he could."

So I propose a test case for comparison, how do Christians Martyrs go like lambs to the slaughter?

One pretty recent and infamous Christian Martyr was Thomas Becket, The Arch bishop of Canterbury, The see of the Anglican church.

The story goes that there was a power struggle going on between Church/Rome and State/England. The King wants to unite his kingdom both secularly and religiously so he appoints his best friend Thomas as the new Arch Bishop of Canterbury. But Becket fought for church rights and wanted to serve God not the king. And wouldn't bow to the king, So the kings men bring him into account for himself. The king demanded Becket's loyalty, but Becket stood his ground. So the king stripped him of all his wealth along with his whole family and exiled them to France. They were there for six years.

Well with pressure applied by the Pope, the king finally relented and Becket returned to Canterbury in triumph... and promptly excommunicated 3 Bishops who had taken the Kings side. These Bishops on Christmas day then go complained to the King and they king stormed out of the court in a rage, cursing Thomas as he went. 4 Barons heard the king cursing and took an oath to avenge the kings honor, probably to score brownie points with the King.

So the stage is set. The 4 knights go to arrest Becket in his "Palace", but because they have no signed edict from the King he refuses to go with them. The knights leave for a moment, and Thomas monk's begin locking down the Abby and trying to skirt him out the back door to flee from the men. But the men returned wearing their full armor with swords in hand. Becket almost gets out but decides to turn and have a show down with the four knights instead and to protect his friends. And the rest is History.

You can watch this BBC special on the event here (its based on eye witness accounts):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cenyvBf52Vg&feature=related

Now the interesting part you will want to notice is that, Thomas doesn't go down like the typical Christian Martyr we are always hearing critics of the Church boast about. (ie Like a dumb sheep before the shearers, saying not a word).

He goes down provoking his attackers, shoving one of them to the ground and defending his friends.

Only then are the fatal blows to his head delivered.

This is why people attempt to control the definition of terms…by so doing they seek to redefine the debate or exclude any opposing points of view from the debate. The odd thing is when this is done by the critics of other faiths; the charge is that the other person is trying to redefine a term, when the goal is to return the term back to it original meaning.

Moses fled…

Elijah hid…

Paul was let down a city wall in a basket…

Even Christ “disappeared out of their midst”.

No one who has ever been considered a Martyr has just reported for their execution. Prior to being apprehended they did what they could to preserve their lives. Other than Christ (who when it was time offered no resistance, although Peter drew a sword and cut of a guard’s ear), sought any number of means to avoid death, even legal action as Paul threatened.

In Joseph’s case when asked to return he asked his brother what to do…instead of say “I am the Prophet”! Also knowing his fate went anyway, after Hyrum and John Taylor were shot he then acted to defend all, with a gun that was brought into him. I think the guard let the gun in and left. By so doing he sought to ease his own conscience. Had he been there doing his job…he would have fired the shots.

Fighting men are no less hero’s when they are killed just because they fought back. This is why 99.9% of all Medal of Honor recipients are awarded posthumously.

Firemen are heroes for entering a fire to save someone…they are no less so for putting on their gear to protect themselves.

If a family were being attacked and the Father or Mother fought back, but died, they would still be considered as dying for their family.

Hope point is made.

[Jaybear]

"Websters Online: : a person who voluntarily suffers death as the penalty of witnessing to and refusing to renounce a religion."

Saying this doesn't fit Joseph Smith is not understanding a thing about his life. His entire life was witnessing his religion and refusing to renounce it, even the "dreaded" polygamy which he did not want to do but did out of obedience to a commandment. His stint in Liberty Jail is a testimony to his witnessing and endurance. Those who criticize the last hours of Joseph Smith do not understand the whole history of those events and I suggest as a start Truman Madsen's lectures and the Joseph Smith Papers Documentary which goes through the timeline and the intentions of the prophet at that time.

Good try. But, by the definitions I provided, there has to be a causal connection between his death and his refusal to renounce his faith. The words "FOR" and "RATHER" make that clear.

Think of the story of the Christians who were told they must renounce Christianity or face the lions in the pit. We don't need to read a biography of them to know they were martyrs.

[thesometimesaint]

Jaybear:

For the record I said bad form not poor form. It is bad form to insult what others believe.

Further just because someone is willing to die for their beliefs, doesn't mandate that they are willing to have friends and family with them to die also. There were three other people in that room.

[Jaybear]

So Jaybear, are you saying that if Joseph renounced his religion instead of ordering the destruction of the printing press that the mob would have still killed him?

hmmm...or ar you saying the definition you quoted for martyr must somehow also imply that the person who is killed must be given by their killers the option to live by renouncing or be killd?

Whenever you begin a comment with "are you saying that" please stop.

There is nothing I said that was the least bit ambiguous

The definitions are not mine. They are simply the ones I prefer.

Whatever the case the twisting you seem to embrace in order to maintain your opinion is well, adorable.

WOW. JUST WOW.

I applied an accepted definition to an existing set of facts.

You, my friend, are one that is bending and twisting the facts to "maintain your opinion."

.

[altersteve]

The definitions are not mine. They are simply the ones I prefer.

And why is it that you prefer that definition? Because it, in your opinion, excludes Joseph Smith?

[Zakuska]

Good try. But, by the definitions I provided, there has to be a causal connection between his death and his refusal to renounce his faith. The words "FOR" and "RATHER" make that clear.

Think of the story of the Christians who were told they must renounce Christianity or face the lions in the pit. We don't need to read a biography of them to know they were martyrs.

Noah websters 1828 definition:

martyr

M`ARTYR, n. [Gr. a witness.] One who, by his death, bears witness to the truth of the gospel. Stephen was the first christian martyr.

To be a martyr signifies only to witness the truth of Christ.

1. One who suffers death in defense of any cause. We say, a man dies a martyr to his political principles or to the cause of liberty.

M`ARTYR, v.t. To put to death for adhering to what one believes to be the truth; to sacrifice one on account of his faith or profession.

1. To murder; to destroy.

So Jaybear... your definition also strips many "sainted" christian Martyrs of the title.

Care to comment on Becket?

Edited September 30, 2011 by Zakuska

[Jaybear]

This is why people attempt to control the definition of terms…by so doing they seek to redefine the debate or exclude any opposing points of view from the debate. The odd thing is when this is done by the critics of other faiths; the charge is that the other person is trying to redefine a term, when the goal is to return the term back to it original meaning.

Moses fled…

Elijah hid…

Paul was let down a city wall in a basket…

Even Christ “disappeared out of their midst”.

I am not aware of any definition of martyr the requires one go willingly to his death. Any critic who claims Smith was not a martyr because he had a gun, and fought back is not arguing from a principled position.