Pascals Wager From A Non-Believer.

[Eldwynn]

This post is loosely inspired by the following short YouTube clip:

Given the large number of world religions, can't you just as easily make a "safer" bet that you should just live your life without religion, and bet that god will understand your reasoning in the end.

For example, I am unconvinced that god exists. I am not rationally persuaded, nor, despite my 20 years growing up in the church as a faithful member, have I ever had my "prayers" about its truth answered. Thus, I have neither rational/objective evidence to believe nor do I have emotional, subjective reasons to believe.

Assuming God is all knowing, he certainly knows EXACTLY what experiences it would take for me, (and other non-believers) to believe. Apparently, according to some on this board, they USED to be in my exact shoes, and had some miraculous experience from god to change their mind. There are only two possible explanations for this:

1) God really answered these non-believers prayers in the exact way that they needed them answered.

2) God doesn't exist, and these people believe because of some non-supernatural experience.

Given that 2 is possible, it seems the only rational choice is for me to continue to live my life, as a non-believer, until god intervenes and gives me the experience that turns me into a believer (I have no clue what that would be.... but presumably god does).

So, since I doubt god would want me to "pretend" to be LDS when I have no reason to believe, isn't a safer bet to be true to myself (in case this really is the only life I get), and if I die and end up in the afterlife, I can, rather frankly, tell god that if he wanted me to believe, he should have communicated a bit better.

Please don't respond without watching the video(troll another thread ).

[TAO]

Eldwynn, this is the reason why faith is needed. You might call it 'the leap of faith'. You must go the limit of your abilities, and then... pass it. Then, your trial of faith will be complete. You can't just go to your limit... you must go further... and you will discover, that your limit wasn't what you really thought it was.

Keep praying, keep hoping, keep pushing yourself another few inches. And when you are tired, use that strength to push yourself further. And push yourself beyond the boundaries, so when the choice comes, you know what is right, and what is wrong, and you know what both choices will lead to.

Yes, God is understanding, and merciful, benevolent, forgiving, and knows your thoughts. But he also is a just God, who keeps his promises. You have a responsibility that you must complete, which will lead to much happiness, but it is hard to reach. This responsibility is why 'I'm not sure', doesn't work well. By the time you are aware that you have a choice, you must make it, if you back down, you have backed down from your responsibility to choose, which is something God gave us in life. The ability to choose, and the responsibility to choose, come together, and at least in my view, that is what agency is. Both capability, and responsibility.

Thus, yes, you have the capability to choose. But because you are keenly aware that you have a choice, you must choose. That is your responsibility. Now what of the paths you choose, that will effect you later on in life, and into the eternities, where you will be judged by it. So make sure you make the right choice. How do you know the right choice? You make the choice to seek knowledge on it; not knowledge of one or the other, but what is knowledge to you.

In other words, just because 2 is possible... doesn't mean a choice should not be made... because without risks... you cannot live very well, indeed =P

Best of Wishes,

-TAO

Edited September 17, 2011 by TAO

[elguanteloko]

Agreed... although you assume a sort of determinism here. God, if he allows us free-will, wouldn't give you the experiences necessary for you to believe in him and neither would he do the opposite since by doing this he would be determining your belief or non-belief.

Anyways, with or without freewill, the point you make is one I share.

[Maidservant]

Given the large number of world religions, can't you just as easily make a "safer" bet that you should just live your life without religion, and bet that god will understand your reasoning in the end.

For example, I am unconvinced that god exists. I am not rationally persuaded, nor, despite my 20 years growing up in the church as a faithful member, have I ever had my "prayers" about its truth answered. Thus, I have neither rational/objective evidence to believe nor do I have emotional, subjective reasons to believe.

Assuming God is all knowing, he certainly knows EXACTLY what experiences it would take for me, (and other non-believers) to believe. Apparently, according to some on this board, they USED to be in my exact shoes, and had some miraculous experience from god to change their mind. There are only two possible explanations for this:

1) God really answered these non-believers prayers in the exact way that they needed them answered.

2) God doesn't exist, and these people believe because of some non-supernatural experience.

Given that 2 is possible, it seems the only rational choice is for me to continue to live my life, as a non-believer, until god intervenes and gives me the experience that turns me into a believer (I have no clue what that would be.... but presumably god does).

So, since I doubt god would want me to "pretend" to be LDS when I have no reason to believe, isn't a safer bet to be true to myself (in case this really is the only life I get), and if I die and end up in the afterlife, I can, rather frankly, tell god that if he wanted me to believe, he should have communicated a bit better.

Please don't respond without watching the video(troll another thread ).

Ok. I loved this video.

Don't worry, Eldwynn. You're not going to fry. No one is (according to LDS). Please continue on your present course of life . . . it's acceptable, yes? It's a result of what you know and believe and have received from God (even if that receipt was 'nothing' in your perception). You are fine.

Our Heavenly Father is far more concerned with how a man practices than what a man thinks. How a man loves. (Read Moses 7 carefully to see what causes God to weep and what causes the world to reach a state of destruction. It ISN'T homosexuality, word of wisdom problems, or lack of church attendance.)

If you die, and then encounter God, I'm pretty much sure that what he would say to you is "Hi, Eldwynn!" There is nothing to worry on that encounter.

When I listen to this gentleman in the video, I hear God. This man is preaching the gospel (a portion of it). He possesses light and is sharing his light . . . not to mention that he has come . . . on his own, no doubt from the workings of the spirit (as I would term it, he wouldn't, of course) and his own spirit and thinking . . . what it took Joseph Smith a rather blinding experience to know: "they draw near to me with thier lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness."

This man's heart is near God's (although he would not term it that) and he knows that (for example) the doctrine of h*** that is propogated by so many is a commandment of men (i.e. as he speaks of it as a tool of vengeance upon the innocent which is a carnal nature and cannot be God's nature) . . . that is why he cannot subscribe to it. He recognizes the Adversary pretending to be God.

Not to mention that you can just hear the longing in his voice when he says, I would give anything to know.

I hate to break it to you, Eldwynn, but this man is an incipient Mormon. LOL!

Eldwynn . . . would you like to do some hometeaching? Do you have a desire to be baptized? Do you want to live your life by covenants? Do you want to have a prayer life? Would you like to try the principle of tithing, and see what blessings come from it? Do you crave green jello? If you seek these things, you will have the joy of these things. If you don't, then your encounter with God (after he says 'Hi') will be some sorrow that you could have enjoyed. And you will want to get started as soon as you can on what you can do from there, and I'm sure it will be fine, if presenting its own challenges (like waiting for a proxy baptism, assuming LDS are correct on all this process).

I have to admit though that on the day I heard that Carl Sagan died, I did giggle just a little bit.

*also tried to put a rep point on elguanteloko's post, but had reached my limit, sigh

Edited September 17, 2011 by Maidservant

[Eldwynn]

When I read what you are writing, it basically says:

Suspend your disbelief, and assume it is true. Go against your reason for a while, and THEN you would get your answer.

I have a good amount of knowledge about how the human brain works (I double majored in Psychology and Neurobiology) and I can't do this, because I know that if you assume the truth of ANYTHING you can convince yourself its true, even with profound feelings. If I were raised a Muslim, and had a high level of dedication to the Koran, if I prayed, my mind would confirm the answer. It's how the brain works. It's cognitive dissonance.

If I won't get an answer until I assume the truth, then my "soul" is... well screwed (well at least my membership in the church is). IF god exists, then he made me this way, and fashioned the mind to work in such an odd way, I am pretty sure he understands.

[elguanteloko]

@TAO

The point is, why "keep on trying" to receive such an answer? If I told you that Apollo wants to communicate with you if you pray to him with enough fervor, should you just keep on trying and trying to receive an answer to your prayers... instead of leave it there and focus in much more important things in life (like in being good and helping others be good, too)?

This really goes back to the basic idea those indifferent towards religion ask when offered religion: "Why, if I am a good person that helps others and is happy doing so, do I need religion for?"

Any answer to that question makes God sound like an extremely mean being.

Edited September 17, 2011 by elguanteloko

[Eldwynn]

Ok. I loved this video.

Don't worry, Eldwynn. You're not going to fry. No one is (according to LDS). Please continue on your present course of life . . . it's acceptable, yes? It's a result of what you know and believe and have received from God (even if that receipt was 'nothing' in your perception). You are fine.

Our Heavenly Father is far more concerned with how a man practices than what a man thinks. How a man loves. (Read Moses 7 carefully to see what causes God to weep and what causes the world to reach a state of destruction. It ISN'T homosexuality, word of wisdom problems, or lack of church attendance.)

If you die, and then encounter God, I'm pretty much sure that what he would say to you is "Hi, Eldwynn!" There is nothing to worry on that encounter.

When I listen to this gentleman in the video, I hear God. This man is preaching the gospel (a portion of it). He possesses light and is sharing his light . . . not to mention that he has come . . . on his own, no doubt from the workings of the spirit (as I would term it, he wouldn't, of course) and his own spirit and thinking . . . what it took Joseph Smith a rather blinding experience to know: "they draw near to me with thier lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness."

This man's heart is near God's (although he would not term it that) and he knows that (for example) the doctrine of h*** that is propogated by so many is a commandment of men (i.e. as he speaks of it as a tool of vengeance upon the innocent which is a carnal nature and cannot be God's nature) . . . that is why he cannot subscribe to it. He recognizes the Adversary pretending to be God.

Not to mention that you can just hear the longing in his voice when he says, I would give anything to know.

I hate to break it to you, Eldwynn, but this man is an incipient Mormon. LOL!

Haha, maybe if he payed tithing

Who wouldn't want to know for sure? The problem is, I think people that say they DO know for sure, are either lying for a paycheck, or mistaken. If there's one thing I "know" its that humans can't be certain of anything. You can convince yourself you are sure, but if everyone was honest with themselves.... you can always be wrong.

[Eldwynn]

@TAO

The point is, why "keep on trying" to receive such an answer? If I told you that Apollo wants to communicate with you if you pray to him with enough fervor, should you just keep on trying and trying to receive an answer to your prayers... instead of leave it there and focus in much more important things in life (like in being good and helping others be good, too)?

This really goes back to the basic idea those indifferent towards religion ask when offered religion: "Why, if I am a good person that helps others and is happy doing so, do I need religion for?"

Any answer to that question makes God sound like an extremely mean being.

And important point that should be made over and over again. If Mormons are right, and we can all get to the Celestial kingdom anyways, then why on earth would you give your money to a church, when you have no oversight how it is spent?

That's the 10% of your income (in my case, about 20 bucks) question.

[elguanteloko]

I have to admit though that on the day I heard that Carl Sagan died, I did giggle just a little bit.

.... let' me get this straight. you giggled when a great human being died...

*also tried to put a rep point on elguanteloko's post, but had reached my limit, sigh

I don't want the rep points of someone that giggles at the death of Carl Sagan.

[Eldwynn]

Agreed... although you assume a sort of determinism here. God, if he allows us free-will, wouldn't give you the experiences necessary for you to believe in him and neither would he do the opposite since by doing this he would be determining your belief or non-belief.

Anyways, with or without freewill, the point you make is one I share.

This is really the problem of free will when you add an all knowing entity in the mix that interferes with our lives.

[Maidservant]

Haha, maybe if he payed tithing

Who wouldn't want to know for sure? The problem is, I think people that say they DO know for sure, are either lying for a paycheck, or mistaken. If there's one thing I "know" its that humans can't be certain of anything. You can convince yourself you are sure, but if everyone was honest with themselves.... you can always be wrong.

A human being will definitely always be wrong. Because there is always more to learn. Truth isn't only like two possibilities (like picking out where the little rock is under two upside down cups on a table). Truth is a gradual uncovering or revelation of all that IS, and one is always going to be discarding and shedding old clothes and putting on new.

[Maidservant]

.... let' me get this straight. you giggled when a great human being died...

I don't want the rep points of someone that giggles at the death of Carl Sagan.

Perhaps I wasn't clear. I love Carl Sagan. (Also to me when people die, they are still living, so to me it isn't always the doom that others perceive.) I just was imagining that "encounter" when he got to the other side, like "surprise!".

What else did you think I meant? Don't you know me better than that?

[elguanteloko]

A human being will definitely always be wrong.

You believe God exists, correct? Then you are wrong.

[elguanteloko]

Perhaps I wasn't clear. I love Carl Sagan. (Also to me when people die, they are still living, so to me it isn't always the doom that others perceive.) I just was imagining that "encounter" when he got to the other side, like "surprise!".

What else did you think I meant? Don't you know me better than that?

no

[Maidservant]

You believe God exists, correct? Then you are wrong.

I have more to learn, yes. And who knows where I will end up on that.

However, your perception of what you think that I think God is . . . is probably nothing like I am actually experiencing God and I think you might be surprised at what I have come to. I am definitely at a different spot than I was thinking God was than say when I was in Young Women's class, and interestingly enough one of my recent mottos is "God is an atheist" and I have a deuce of a time explaining that to anyone (whether a believer or an atheist) as they have a problem with combining the two, he he . . . but at least *I* know what I mean, and it's helpful to me at this time.

[Eldwynn]

I have more to learn, yes. And who knows where I will end up on that.

However, your perception of what you think that I think God is . . . is probably nothing like I am actually experiencing God and I think you might be surprised at what I have come to. I am definitely at a different spot than I was thinking God was than say when I was in Young Women's class, and interestingly enough one of my recent mottos is "God is an atheist" and I have a deuce of a time explaining that to anyone (whether a believer or an atheist) as they have a problem with combining the two, he he . . . but at least *I* know what I mean, and it's helpful to me at this time.

Of course god doesn't believe in other gods, it would be bad for business. After all, if we are made in his image, then he gets just as jealous as we are

[erichard]

...

Hi,

I did watch the YT clip, and it was quite thoughtful. It reminded me of something the Prophet Joseph said:

For illustration the speaker [Joseph] presented, by supposition, the case of two men, brothers, equally intelligent, learned, virtuous and lovely, walking in uprightness and in all good conscience, so far as they had been able to discern duty from the muddy stream of tradition, or from the blotted page of the book of nature.

One dies, and is buried, having never heard the gospel of reconciliation, to the other the message of salvation is sent, he hears and embraces it and is made the heir of eternal life. Shall the one become a partaker of glory, and the other be consigned to hopeless perdition? Is there no chance for his escape? Sectarianism answers, “none! none!! none!!!”

Such an idea is worse than atheism. The truth shall break down and dash in pieces all such bigoted Pharisaism; the rest shall be sifted, the honest in heart brought out and their priests left in the midst of their corruption.

-- source

Eldwynn, in the Mormon faith, there is nothing in heaven that was not first on earth. The elements are eternal. Intelligences are eternal. Angels were once men or women on earth. Jesus is the "Son" of the "Father"-- they are in the same lineage. Etc.

When the maker of that YT clip dies, and if he dies without gaining faith in Christ, he will still exist forever. He will be where he best fits in and is happiest. Of course, he will have to reconcile his actions with God, but if he has been moral and fair the best he could he will not be cast into h***. He will be resurrected to a kingdom of glory for eternity.

His problem is that he is trying to reconcile his understanding and experience with the creedal immaterial god that is taught. I would agree that much of his thinking is correct.

To gain faith in the Mormon Christ he does not have to accept that anything exists that he has not encountered in this world. (Such as the "immaterial" god that creates things out of nothing.)

He only has to believe that this world must be a creation and not the result of a series of accidents. And that whatever gave him a body once could most likely give him one again after death.

The Lord knows his heart. I remain convinced that if his heart and mind is ready he can gain an answer to his prayers and know that he should accept Christ and follow him. But whatever he does, Christ will be totally fair with him, and he will know that in the day of judgment.

Well, and you and me too.

Richard

Edited September 17, 2011 by erichard

[Eldwynn]

Hi,

I did watch the YT clip, and it was quite thoughtful. It reminded me of something the Prophet Joseph said:

Eldwynn, in the Mormon faith, there is nothing in heaven that was not first on earth. The elements are eternal. Intelligences are eternal. Angels were once men or women on earth. Jesus is the "Son" of the "Father"-- they are in the same lineage. Etc.

When the maker of that YT clip dies, and if he dies without gaining faith in Christ, he will still exist forever. He will be where he best fits in and is happiest. Of course, he will have to reconcile his actions with God, but if he has been moral and fair the best he could he will not be cast into h***. He will be resurrected to a kingdom of glory for eternity.

His problem is that he is trying to reconcile his understanding and experience with the creedal immaterial god that is taught. I would agree that much of his thinking is correct.

To gain faith in the Mormon Christ he does not have to accept that anything exists that he has not encountered in this world. (Such as the "immaterial" god that creates things out of nothing.)

He only has to believe that this world must be a creation and not the result of a series of accidents. And that whatever gave him a body once could most likely give him one again after death.

The Lord knows his heart. I remain convinced that if his heart and mind is ready he can gain an answer to his prayers and know that he should accept Christ and follow him. But whatever he does, Christ will be totally fair with him, and he will know that in the day of judgment.

Well, and you too.

Richard

Forgive me for not taking your word on it I guess if he is right, no one will ever know, which is the (tragically) funny thing about it all. Some people devote their entire lives and large financial resources, and if it turns out that existence just ENDS...

I guess that's what frustrates me about religion the most. It is mainly used as a way to encourage the poor that even if life isn't fair NOW, it will be later in heaven. I don't think that's true at all, and it makes me mad that the rich have used (what to me are) lies in order to make people okay with the inherent inequality thinking that they will be rewarded in some life after.

Edited September 17, 2011 by Eldwynn

[Maidservant]

Of course god doesn't believe in other gods, it would be bad for business. After all, if we are made in his image, then he gets just as jealous as we are

Ha ha.

Well.

Not exactly where I'm at with that, but that's cool too.

Forgive me for not taking your word on it I guess if he is right, no one will ever know, which is the (tragically) funny thing about it all. Some people devote their entire lives and large financial resources, and if it turns out that existence just ENDS...

I guess that's what frustrates me about religion the most. It is mainly used as a way to encourage the poor that even if life isn't fair NOW, it will be later in heaven. I don't think that's true at all, and it makes me mad that the rich have used (what to me are) lies in order to make people okay with the inherent inequality thinking that they will be rewarded in some life after.

And this may be a worthwhile challenge to investigate in another thread even.

[TAO]

When I read what you are writing, it basically says:

Suspend your disbelief, and assume it is true. Go against your reason for a while, and THEN you would get your answer.

I have a good amount of knowledge about how the human brain works (I double majored in Psychology and Neurobiology) and I can't do this, because I know that if you assume the truth of ANYTHING you can convince yourself its true, even with profound feelings. If I were raised a Muslim, and had a high level of dedication to the Koran, if I prayed, my mind would confirm the answer. It's how the brain works. It's cognitive dissonance.

If I won't get an answer until I assume the truth, then my "soul" is... well screwed (well at least my membership in the church is). IF god exists, then he made me this way, and fashioned the mind to work in such an odd way, I am pretty sure he understands.

Nah, my point isn't that.

Obviously, you felt at least something, or else you wouldn't be trying to figure out if it is true.

My point is, focus on that.

And yes... you WILL have to make a jump of faith sometime. But no, you won't have to assume it is true. You will simply have to learn to trust your feelings.

I think you remember the Indiana Jones movie... with the invisible rock across the valley. It's like that. Your feelings have gotten you this far. And now, you have a trial that seems so big... but now you have a choice. Do you trust your feelings more, or your rationality more. And that is the barrier you will have to break; trusting your feelings over your rationality.

And guess what, I know that if you assume something is true, you will believe it is true too. That is why I am saying 'trust your feelings' rather than 'assume it is true'. I am someone who can convince myself nearly anything is true if I really want to. Which is why I am very careful about my feelings, because I don't want them to get corrupted in this manner. I try to stop myself from wanting a certain option to be 'true', and instead, try to focus on what I 'feel' is 'right'.

Also, your cognitive dissonance, only works some of the time. Because the brain's system of weights and balances changes when you change the lens you are looking through, cognitive dissonance doesn't always work. There are certain things that no matter how much I want them to be true, I know they are not, instinctively; through feelings. Cognitive dissonance works with mild feelings, but it does not work with stronger ones.

You will do with what you have to do, and choose what you will choose. Just remember you have responsibility. And also remember... trusting in what we call 'the real world' is no more rational then trusting (or not trusting) in a God (thanks to 'The Brain in the Vat' Theory).

Edited September 17, 2011 by TAO

[TAO]

@TAO

The point is, why "keep on trying" to receive such an answer? If I told you that Apollo wants to communicate with you if you pray to him with enough fervor, should you just keep on trying and trying to receive an answer to your prayers... instead of leave it there and focus in much more important things in life (like in being good and helping others be good, too)?

This really goes back to the basic idea those indifferent towards religion ask when offered religion: "Why, if I am a good person that helps others and is happy doing so, do I need religion for?"

Any answer to that question makes God sound like an extremely mean being.

Why keep trying... the reason... at least my reason is... life isn't worth living without an answer.

I'm not sure if you'd agree with me on that (you probably wouldn't), but that is the reason I believe... to make life worth living =).

As for why I don't pray to other Gods, it is because I have already found one with whom I am fully comfortable.

Why do you need a religion, you ask? To make things worthwhile. All of everything you do will be dust, if you think otherwise. To think otherwise, means you are a dispensable piece in a puzzle that just moves on, with no care whatsoever. That is a purposeless life, and above all things, I have a sense of purpose. To live in such a world would be pointless to me; there would be no point to live.

As you can see, I am not a big fan of mundanity =P. Everything must be for greater reason, imo... even if it is obscure.

You may not agree with my opinion... but that is why I think the way I do XD. Purpose is everything to me. Life must have purpose that isn't mundane =).

Edited September 17, 2011 by TAO

[Calm]

I guess that's what frustrates me about religion the most. It is mainly used as a way to encourage the poor that even if life isn't fair NOW, it will be later in heaven. I don't think that's true at all, and it makes me mad that the rich have used (what to me are) lies in order to make people okay with the inherent inequality thinking that they will be rewarded in some life after.

And yet it is the religious who give most to charities so if the poor need help to rise out of their poverty, it would be wise not to dispense with religion: http://abcnews.go.co...=2682730&page=2

Religious people are more likely to give to charity, and when they give, they give more money: four times as much. And Arthur Brooks told me that giving goes beyond their own religious organization:

"Actually, the truth is that they're giving to more than their churches," he says. "The religious Americans are more likely to give to every kind of cause and charity, including explicitly non-religious charities."

Edited September 17, 2011 by calmoriah

[TAO]

And important point that should be made over and over again. If Mormons are right, and we can all get to the Celestial kingdom anyways, then why on earth would you give your money to a church, when you have no oversight how it is spent?

That's the 10% of your income (in my case, about 20 bucks) question.

Because of the blessings you would miss out on =).

Church makes life much much better, that it does =D.

In addition, if you don't make the choice now... the choice will linger on. I don't know if the choice ever gets easier to make... it could do so... or it could not. I don't think there will ever be an easy path. Hard choice, I know =P. But well worth choices too =).

[Calm]

If Mormons are right, and we can all get to the Celestial kingdom anyways, then why on earth would you give your money to a church, when you have no oversight how it is spent?

If the reason you don't give is because you wish to have more control, then there is a fundamental problem right there. Those who desire to enter the Celestial Kingdom need to develop the attitude "Thy Will, not mine, be done" and that means it seems to me turning all control over to the Lord (who then returns it back to us...but we've got to be willing to give it up without getting it back).

If an individual is someone who hedges their bets, does only what they are comfortable with, refuses to live by faith, etc., it is likely they will continue in the same mode in the next life and that is not someone who would feel comfortable in my view with sharing in all that God has including his Work....along with the great responsibility, there must be a willingness to allow others their agency, to trust, to let go, etc. even when one knows they are choosing poorly.

I certainly believe that people will find all that they truly desire in the next life, but if they are not willing to make sacrifices and take risks for them in mortality that tells me it is not something they truly desire.

[thesometimesaint]

Eldwynn:

There are more well educated believers on this message board. So it is unwise to use formal education as your measuring stick. We all find reasons to believe or not believe, and my subjective reasons are no worse(or better) than yours.

Ultimately you alone are responsible for what you choose to believe For me, my religion helps define whom I am, and it shapes what my actions are. I'll let God decide on what eternal fate I have. Even if wrong on minor points of theology Mormonism is a morally good way to live. I'm sure God will take everything into account, and I'll come out OK.

BTW. For the sake of the argument. If the Atheists are correct and it is just this life and then the Abyss. None of us will know any differently anyway.