What Distinguishes The Evangelical Witness Vs. Lds Testimony

[Rob Bowman]

Vance,

There are only two possibilities that I can see:

(1) You think that your experience of what you found, "under questioning," is representative of all such persons.

(2) You do not think that your experience of what you found, "under questioning," is representative of all such persons.

If (1) is your position, you are guilty of the very generalization you claim here not to have made. If (2) is your position, then your limited experience cannot preclude that there are a good number of persons who met the conditions and did not receive the promised manifestation of the truth of the Book of Mormon.

Choose either of these.

[mfbukowski]

I think Evangelicalism is a great way to learn about Christ as a preparation for the full gospel.

That is another possibility. Not everyone is ready for the full truth, and they will have a chance on the other side to learn a lot more.

[Mudcat]

I think Evangelicalism is a great way to learn about Christ as a preparation for the full gospel.

That is another possibility. Not everyone is ready for the full truth, and they will have a chance on the other side to learn a lot more.

This smells of the same sort of elitism I have actually seen doled out at extended family dinners with the potatoes and gravy.

I would ask, emphasis mine, what you feel a person must do to be actually be ready for the full truth?

Edited August 27, 2011 by Mudcat

[Rob Bowman]

Mr. Bukowski,

You wrote:

I wouldn't be too sure about that one. I suppose we could argue about who's congregation has more jerks in it, but I will pass. That's one I don't want to win.

Who said anything about the men of whom I spoke being in my congregation? I'm sure I didn't.

You wrote:

No, you are confusing the certitude about BEING in love with the fact that many marriages don't work out due to many reasons- the most common of which is selfishness on the part of one party or the other.

The question is about the certitude of a subjective experience, not about people going astray. But then again I suppose every person who believes they are "saved" never backslide or give up on Christianity, or cheat on their wives, do they?

Just for your information, zingers like this one about the Book of Mormon are what lead me to reply sarcastically, so you can call me on it later, and play the victim.

I made no "zinger," and you are the one who is confused. Many women fall in love with men who are jerks, or worse, at the time they fall in love with them. They feel so sure they have met Mr. Right. But they are wrong. The lesson here is that how one feels about one's religion is simply no guarantee of its truth.

You wrote:

Please don't forget my other questions. I know you don't want to avoid them so I am reminding you. No hurry, just don't forget.

Would you like me to refer to posts to which you have not yet responded, or are you aware of them?

I think I've made more than a sufficient effort to explain my position to you. I make no promises to keep answering new questions from you ad infinitum. There are other issues I would like to address and of course I have other things to do. The general disrespect you have shown me through most of our discussions, including very recently, is wearying to me. I'm sorry, but I think it's time for me to move on to other matters.

[mfbukowski]

This smells of the same sort of elitism I have actually seen doled out at extended family dinners with the potatoes and gravy.

I would ask, emphasis mine, what you feel a person must do to be actually be ready for the full truth?

I was kind of ribbing Rob for his response to Vance, as if there were only two possibilities, neither of which were particularly appealing possibilities for Mormons.

No offense intended, at least not on my part !

[mfbukowski]

I think I've made more than a sufficient effort to explain my position to you. I make no promises to keep answering new questions from you ad infinitum. There are other issues I would like to address and of course I have other things to do. The general disrespect you have shown me through most of our discussions, including very recently, is wearying to me. I'm sorry, but I think it's time for me to move on to other matters.

Fine. Leave them unanswered then.

That in itself is an answer.

[Mudcat]

I was kind of ribbing Rob for his response to Vance, as if there were only two possibilities, neither of which were particularly appealing possibilities for Mormons.

I don't have any comment on the discussion between the two.

No offense intended, at least not on my part !

Bukoswki, it's not like you quoted someone in your response, you offered a general comment. How was any EV who happened to read you comment read it other than how you offered it?

Let me ask you point blank. Did you mean what you said?

[mfbukowski]

I don't have any comment on the discussion between the two.

Bukoswki, it's not like you quoted someone in your response, you offered a general comment. How was any EV who happened to read you comment read it other than how you offered it?

Let me ask you point blank. Did you mean what you said?

Mormon theology teaches that all will have the opportunity to progress in the afterlife, and that we might make mistakes in this life.

We also believe that if one is not converted to the restored gospel, one will be able to have that opportunity "on the other side" We believe that there is more available to mankind that "heaven"- we believe that all will have the opportunity to be come as God is. We also believe that we can be sealed to become a "forever family", and that if you are not so sealed this blessing will not be available to you.

You know all this- why is this a surprise?

[KevinG]

I started this mess. I should probably chime in.

The half page answer to two very simple questions was disappointing. I really hoped to get an honest straightforward answer.

The bottom line for me is when God spoke to me, when I had my epiphany, I knew God lived and His Son Jesus Christ was my Savior. From there the same Holy Spirit verified to me that the Book of Mormon was a true testament of Jesus Christ. None of these were a one off experience, but the Holy Spirit working to teach me over time. Every time I read the Bible or Book of Mormon my mind is quickened and my spirit enlarged and I learn more sacred things. I know Christ better for my having become a Mormon.

Outside of pharasitical word games the process is pretty straight forward. We ask in faith. God responds with truth.

I am saved by His grace. I will become a joint heir with Him through the atonement. I am greateful.

[mfbukowski]

I started this mess. I should probably chime in.

The half page answer to two very simple questions was disappointing. I really hoped to get an honest straightforward answer.

The bottom line for me is when God spoke to me, when I had my epiphany, I knew God lived and His Son Jesus Christ was my Savior. From there the same Holy Spirit verified to me that the Book of Mormon was a true testament of Jesus Christ. None of these were a one off experience, but the Holy Spirit working to teach me over time. Every time I read the Bible or Book of Mormon my mind is quickened and my spirit enlarged and I learn more sacred things. I know Christ better for my having become a Mormon.

Outside of pharasitical word games the process is pretty straight forward. We ask in faith. God responds with truth.

I am saved by His grace. I will become a joint heir with Him through the atonement. I am greateful.

Exactly!

[KevinG]

Mudcat - thanks for being open and taking the risk to jump in as an Evangelical on these boards. That was a risk on this particular discussion with the ratio of Mormons to others. I have found that our faith experiences are similar and I appreciate your plain and honest answers.

My frustrations with the word play of a professional anti-mormon intent on painting my Church in a particular manner do not color my opinion of all Evangelicals. As I've said before I am appreciative of the good Christian faiths that surround us here in Georgia.

My prayer is that you and your extended family continue to understand each other and come to a meeting of minds. May your shared faith in Christ bring you great joy!

[mfbukowski]

In another thread there was an unanswered question that unfortunately got bogged down in arguments over whether it had been answered before or not.

For the benefit of those of us who were not privy to theearlier discussions can any self described (non-LDS) Christian explain whytheir belief in a witness from the Holy Spirit leading to knowledge of theclaims of their faith is distinct and by implication more valid than the LDSclaims of testimony from the Holy Spirit that can lead to a knowledge of the truthfulnessof the LDS claims?

For example why is the Spirit witnessing to someone at analter call that they can be saved by declaring Christ their Savior and covenanting as such by beingbaptized into a non-denominational Christian church any more or less valid thana person finding out that they can be saved by testifying Jesus Christ is their Savior and covenanting as such through LDSbaptism?

I apologize if my descriptions aren’t in line with inside languageof respective denominations (or non-denominations) but please don’t let thathang the discussion up. Explain what distinguishes the claims of revelation through the Holy Spirit and makes one more valid in your eyes than the other.

This is the OP

The whole altar call question which started this thread has not even been discussed. I have asked the question, but no answers.

Surprise surprise.

[mfbukowski]

It also seems clear that if one believes it is impossible for one to pray about which church to join, it is not likely that one will do that.

But what if that belief is wrong, and one does not do that because one believes it is not possible or "improper"?

[KevinG]

This is the OP

The whole altar call question which started this thread has not even been discussed. I have asked the question, but no answers.

Surprise surprise.

It was answered with an analogy. In a nutshell: When an Evangelical falls in love with God they are really in love forever. When a Mormon falls in love with God they only think they are in love.

That answer spoke volumes to me. Thank goodness my Evangelical friends and family don't really think that way.

Edited August 27, 2011 by DaddyG

[Vance]

Vance,

There are only two possibilities that I can see:

(1) You think that your experience of what you found, "under questioning," is representative of all such persons.

(2) You do not think that your experience of what you found, "under questioning," is representative of all such persons.

If (1) is your position, you are guilty of the very generalization you claim here not to have made. If (2) is your position, then your limited experience cannot preclude that there are a good number of persons who met the conditions and did not receive the promised manifestation of the truth of the Book of Mormon.

Choose either of these.

Irrelevant to the fact that you dishonestly misreprented what I actually said.

[Vance]

The lesson here is that how one feels about one's religion is simply no guarantee of its truth.

Now I understand why you are so certain about your own religion. Your certitude certainly is no guarantee of its truth. And neither is your certitude about my religion any indication of its untruth.

Edited August 27, 2011 by Vance

[mfbukowski]

It was answered with an analogy. In a nutshell: When an Evangelical falls in love with God they are really in love forever. When a Mormon falls in love with God they only think they are in love.

That answer spoke volumes to me. Thank goodness my Evangelical friends and family don't really think that way.

Where was that? I guess I missed it- I only had time to read answers to my posts in some cases.

[altersteve]

The lesson here is that how one feels about one's religion is simply no guarantee of its truth.

You're right. It's the other way around.

[jo1952]

I don't have any comment on the discussion between the two.

Bukoswki, it's not like you quoted someone in your response, you offered a general comment. How was any EV who happened to read you comment read it other than how you offered it?

Let me ask you point blank. Did you mean what you said?

Hi Mudcat!

This issue you bring up is a sore spot between believers and LDS believers. It is perceived by non-LDS as some type of put-down by the LDS. Admittedly, I have seen LDS use this issue in a way which saddens me, because I don't think they fully understand it themselves. Unfortunately, I have seen them wave it around as though they have received some right-of-passage which places them into an elitist religious club. If I may elaborate on the concept itself, I will try to explain what I see is happening; though I am certainly no expert about what God has or has not revealed to mankind regardless of any man's particular choice of religious institution.

The LDS believe (and I think it is easily supported by the Bible), that the receiving of the Holy Ghost to a specific individual, is an ordinance which is performed by someone who has the power and authority to do so. For the purposes of this post, I am not going to use any other canon then what you also accept as canon. There are indeed instances in the Bible where it appears that it was not necessary for this event to take place by the laying on of hands. You have already pointed to Cornelius. On Pentecost, as well as at other group gatherings, the Holy Ghost did descend upon entire gatherings and was manifested, for instance, through speaking in tongues. Yet there are also passages in the Bible where only those who had the power and authority to do so, would perform the ordinance for new converts who had only been baptized by water, to then use the laying on of hands for the purpose of those converst to receive the Holy Ghost. It definitely appears easy to understand how confusion, and even conflict, is being taught in the Bible.

We also believe that the Holy Ghost is the witness on the earth - whenever anyone is drawn to exercise faith and believe in Christ, it is the witness of the Holy Ghost who brings them conviction to their heart and mind that Jesus is indeed the Christ. I also believe, and this has been verified by various Church leaders, that the Father uses the Holy Ghost to teach truth to anyone who is sincerely seeking it. It does not matter who you are or what your religious affiliation is in order to be led to truth. Obviously, when Joseph Smith prayed in the woods about which church to join, HE was not LDS because there was no such thing as the LDS Church.

The difference in the LDS Church is that the ordinance of "receiving the Holy Ghost" is one which allows the Holy Ghost to be a constant companion through the laying on of hands. However, this does NOT guaranty that the recipient is going to do their part to allow continual guidance by the Holy Ghost to take place. However, those who DO experience this learn to discern His presence if they are paying attention. The process that then follows is best described as the baptism by fire. But I do not believe this happens all at once; rather it happens over time. I have seen this, and have personally experienced this happening before I had ever even heard of the LDS Church. The Holy Ghost was already changing me from the inside. However, once I found the Church and "received the Holy Ghost" by the laying on of hands, I can tell you that it was "different" after that. The "way" it was different is that I became more aware of His presence and I experienced His guidance in a more conscious and more apparent way than I had before that time.

Now, to add to the confusion, I have known many believers who are NOT LDS who have, what appears to me anyway, a better relationship with the Holy Ghost than members of the Church do. Since God is not a respector of persons, I do not believe He is going to withhold any Truth that a person is ready for and able to bear. In fact, as leaders of the Church have already taught, Father teaches Truth wherever He wills it; NOT just within the LDS Church. However WHAT Truth they have revealed is merely a different portion of the "whole" Truth than a portion that is revealed to a member of the Church. IOW, if we put all of the Truths together which have been revealed to various people in various denominations we would actually wind up with a bigger portion of the "whole" Truth; so, what we have all received is still Truth. I believe that we will soon be seeing the Holy Ghost manifesting more and more in these latter days in fulfillment of prophecy:

Acts 2:17

And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Obviously, not all believers are LDS; so obviously the Holy Ghost is working all over the earth.

I would say that the ordinance wherein we "receive the Holy Ghost" by the laying of hands is not only a blessing we receive as members of the Church, it is also a necessary ordinance just as any ordinance is required due to the belief that God's House is a House of Order. And there are just specific and required steps which are necessary to be met. However, the purpose of the Temples is to accomplish these steps for ALL of mankind; not just for the individual members of the Church. Therefore, believers from all over the earth will have that work done; their righteousness and the Truth they have had revealed to them does NOT equate to whether or not they are a member of the Church. Therefore, their progression is not hampered just because they did not join the Church while in the flesh. Nor is the "amount" of Truth which can be revealed to them determined by what church they belong to. The LDS Church has received revelation through latter-day Prophets. But these revelations are available to the entire world. We just want to share them so that others can enjoy the knowledge and extra joy that can be had in this lifetime.

Before I close this post I would like to re-iterate some teachings you are most likely already aware of. What the LDS try to describe when speaking about how their lives are effected once they receive the Holy Ghost through the laying on of hands is actually expressed very well in the Bible.

John 15:15 (Jesus is speaking)

Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.

I offered that one because I find it so interesting that Jesus tells His Apostles that He has made know unto them all that Father had told Jesus to tell them. The following passage is different, and changes gears:

John 16:12-14 (again, Jesus is speaking)

12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Even though in chapter 15, Jesus claims He has taught the Apostles what Father wanted them to be told, in chapter 16, Jesus tells them that He has many more things to say (IOW, it appears there are things Jesus wants to teach them which are beyond what Father told Him to tell them). HOWEVER, they are not yet able to bear them. They have reached their then current capability to either understand or have anything more revealed to them. But when the Holy Ghost comes, He will teach them whatever He is told to teach them. Once more, we see that another member of the Godhead is not going to reveal what HE knows, He is going to wait for instruction and tell only what He is told to reveal. Interesting, huh? I also believe that not everything is going to be taught to the Apostles or anyone all at once. Just as Jesus did not teach them everything all at once, the pattern has been established concerning HOW they will continue to be led to all truth.

At any rate, even the Apostles weren't able to bear having anything additional revealed to them at that time. This fascinates me because I believe they had already been taught a great deal by the time Jesus has this conversation with them. Can you imagine the things they were taught? But then they were also warned against sharing everything they HAD learned. We find out why, here:

1 Corinthians 3:1-6 (this is Paul speaking; emphasis added)

1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

2I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

3For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

4For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?

6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.

Also,

Hebrews 5:11-14 (this Paul speaking, emphasis added)

11Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

12For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

13For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

14But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

IOW, it was difficult for Paul to tell them, but he did so anyway, explaining that they were "dull of hearing". Remember, these were members of the church he was speaking to.

And also,

1 Peter 1:22-25 AND 1 Peter 2:3 (this is Peter speaking; emphasis added)

22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:

25But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

1 Peter 2

1 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,

2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:

3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.

For clarification, it is NOT the LDS who came up with the idea that some people are only able to bear certain Truths because they are not yet ready to understand more or have more revealed to them. This is a teaching that comes straight from the Bible. In fact, I would apply this same teaching to ALL believers, regardless of whether they are LDS or not.

Very best regards to you,

jo

[Mudcat]

Mormon theology teaches that all will have the opportunity to progress in the afterlife, and that we might make mistakes in this life.

We also believe that if one is not converted to the restored gospel, one will be able to have that opportunity "on the other side" We believe that there is more available to mankind that "heaven"- we believe that all will have the opportunity to be come as God is. We also believe that we can be sealed to become a "forever family", and that if you are not so sealed this blessing will not be available to you.

You know all this- why is this a surprise?

I was not surprised that you said.

Not everyone is ready for the full truth, and they will have a chance on the other side to learn a lot more.

This seems to be a common vein of thought amongst LDS when dealing with the idea that there are some who have examined their beliefs, in this case evangelicals, and haven't drawn the same conclusions about it that they have. If a person is LDS, this may be the best possible answer. However to an evangelical like myself it implies that I am some how deficient.. if not permanently then at least it could be said that it implies I am presently deficient.

There isn't much way around an EV, like yours truly, getting a little chaffed by that notion and given that our particular views on the afterlife are different in some respects, from my view it seems elitist.

I am not surprised by what you believe. I was a little surprised that rather than offering an answer to the question I asked you side stepped it when you said. (It's not a big deal, don't worry about it or anything like that.)

I was kind of ribbing Rob for his response to Vance, as if there were only two possibilities, neither of which were particularly appealing possibilities for Mormons.

No offense intended, at least not on my part !

As a whole, I have thought the notion that as you say, "Not everyone is ready for full truth," is more of an ad hoc

solution to why some people don't become LDS. But if it is actually the answer rather than a solution put together to fit the circumstance then there are certain implications of that answer.

I don't mean to be long winded, but I actually would like some LDS response on this, so I will try this again with but any who feel so inclined offer their thoughts on the matter, please feel free to do so.

If you are LDS and you believe that in some cases, not everyone is ready for full truth in regards to the claims of the CoJCoLDS. Then there are some distinct implications.

1. The LDS believer was somehow ready for the full truth.

2. The non believer was somehow not ready for the full truth.

Both LDS and I share a view that we are free agents. We are responsible for our actions, what we do actually does bring about self caused outcomes, consequences and so forth. Following that, then it would stand to reason that there is something that the LDS believer has done to be ready for the full truth and also that there is something the non-believer has not done to be ready for the truth. So my question is a two part.

1. What is it that LDS beleiver has done to be prepared for the full truth?

2. What is it that non beleiver has not done to be prepared for the full truth?

[Rob Bowman]

Vance,

Predictably, you refused to answer a simple question that would have exposed your ridiculous claim that I dishonestly misrepresented what you said as hot air.

Good-bye.

Irrelevant to the fact that you dishonestly misreprented what I actually said.

[Messenger]

I was not surprised that you said.

This seems to be a common vein of thought amongst LDS when dealing with the idea that there are some who have examined their beliefs, in this case evangelicals, and haven't drawn the same conclusions about it that they have. If a person is LDS, this may be the best possible answer. However to an evangelical like myself it implies that I am some how deficient.. if not permanently then at least it could be said that it implies I am presently deficient.

There isn't much way around an EV, like yours truly, getting a little chaffed by that notion and given that our particular views on the afterlife are different in some respects, from my view it seems elitist.

I am not surprised by what you believe. I was a little surprised that rather than offering an answer to the question I asked you side stepped it when you said. (It's not a big deal, don't worry about it or anything like that.)

As a whole, I have thought the notion that as you say, "Not everyone is ready for full truth," is more of an ad hoc

solution to why some people don't become LDS. But if it is actually the answer rather than a solution put together to fit the circumstance then there are certain implications of that answer.

I don't mean to be long winded, but I actually would like some LDS response on this, so I will try this again with but any who feel so inclined offer their thoughts on the matter, please feel free to do so.

If you are LDS and you believe that in some cases, not everyone is ready for full truth in regards to the claims of the CoJCoLDS. Then there are some distinct implications.

1. The LDS believer was somehow ready for the full truth.

2. The non believer was somehow not ready for the full truth.

Both LDS and I share a view that we are free agents. We are responsible for our actions, what we do actually does bring about self caused outcomes, consequences and so forth. Following that, then it would stand to reason that there is something that the LDS believer has done to be ready for the full truth and also that there is something the non-believer has not done to be ready for the truth. So my question is a two part.

1. What is it that LDS beleiver has done to be prepared for the full truth?

2. What is it that non beleiver has not done to be prepared for the full truth?

Mudcat,

I just wanted to give some closing thoughts. I don’t wish to debate every aspect more than I already have with regards to the differences between EV and LDS.

At the 30,000 foot level, I would say that EV's have a great love for Jesus Christ. And, personally, I would say after having been an EV, and being raised an EV, and being Mormon, I would say that some, but not all, LDS members have missed the boat on that. I have a great love for Jesus Christ, and I feel I know him and would recognize him buy his acts, and his words, if he was disguised among us.

Further, those things that I have experienced, which I call spiritual, prior to my joining the LDS church, in fact have lead me to the LDS church. Further, I have found that the compassion of an EV, has made me a better example of being LDS. Also, at the 30,000 foot level I will now like to present some things that members of the church need to work on.

1) Compassion. All the rules that LDS people think of, are not or should be automatically applied across the board to everyone in the LDS faith. I would say the members, not LDS doctrine, do often misinterpret some of the gospel as to what some of it really is: This pertains to love, and why we keep the commandments. I would say that of all the wards I have been in, there is always some element that thinks that keeping the rules will get us to where we need to go. However, I will also say that when I am in interviews with the Stake President or someone else that gives Temple Recommend Interviews, they do indeed feel the love I have for the Savior.

2) Recognition of the gift of the Holy Ghost: While many members understand the doctrine of the Gift of the Holy Ghost, including the laying on of hands during the confirmation process after baptism, many don’t understand the FEELING of NOT having it – because they always have! So they lack the understanding to describe it. I can’t describe it any better than this – its like a light of intelligence that shines on those that have been confirmed. There are many decisions that come up in life, many seem small, and some are large. We are being suggested to by the spirit the things that we say or do. We often feel it is ourselves, because we’ve never been without it for the most part. I can tell you that now that I know what it is, I am able to separate it out from my own intelligence, and recognize it when it gives me guidance. I can also tell you when a man has learned the compassion of the EV, and also has the spirit to guide and direct even the smallest decisions, that man can truly have an impact on those around him or those that have contact with him. In all honesty, and definitely not coming from an elitist position, because I am not, I would say to those, that don’t have this gift, you are truly missing out. I say this in the same light as if I found something on the side of the road that was better than anything else I ever had before, in terms of function & value – And if there were more of them on the side of the road, I would tell all of my friends about it. There is no benefit to me in telling you the things I have other than sharing with a brother the happiness and love I have discovered …. Along side the road of my life. Many member mistaking think that people that are not members don’t have spiritual experiences. However it is true that they have them much, much less.

3) How Much God is involved with our lives. This is another thing that a lot of people, including LDS don’t all realize. The amount of involvement between people and Christ is huge. My first testimony when I was taking the discussions was of the Mission of Christ after his death, and before his resurrection. This is something unique to the church, but not often taught. And, its where EVs stop when it comes to understanding how #2 works. Christ actually visited the spirit world, and set up the Gospel, and more importantly the actually organization, to help us here on earth to be better guided, instructed, and taught the gospel through life’s everyday experiences.

In the like vein, there are some things that EV’s miss out on by not being a member.

1) Understand the importance of the organization and the authority: Lets face it, when we need to get something done, we get organized. The Gospel of Jesus Christ does not leave it all up to us. Without having the Gift of the Holy Ghost and having Jesus Christ actually at the head of the church, there’s not much efficiency. The authority, having Jesus Christ actually at the head, gives direction to those that do his work. While it is true, that all can be inspired, without the authority and the Gift of the Holy Ghost, the traction of the organization is limited.

2) Gift of the Holy Ghost: I’ve mentioned this above several times. Again, it’s the intelligence and direction of thought that boosts the authority and gives traction to his direction.

Now for a story that describes all of the above. When I was a missionary in Australia, I had only 4 years of experience being a member. I had more experience being a Born Again Christian. One day I was walking with my companion in a wooded neighborhood near Midland, Western Australia. When walking up a steep hill in a residential area, we stopped to rest. An older man, who at first seemed kind, started talking about religion. We seemed to have some things in common, and then his demeanor changed. His face actually got quite ugly and my spiritual alarm started going off. He got quite loud, in fact, I had a spiritual insight that neighbors could be watching us and that it might appear that we were arguing with him, when all we were actually doing was listening to him yell at us, and try and demean us. I asked, in a silent prayer in my mind, while he was yelling at us, what we should do. The impression was to walk away. So I did, and my companion followed. As we walked up the steep hill, the old man followed us, even at our quick pace. I again, got the impression that others that may look would see that we might appear to be running away from this man after starting an argument. I said a quick prayer about what I should do. I then got a stronger, almost urgent impression that he was going to have a heart attack unless I did something. In my mind I said these words, “Heavenly Father, by the power of the priesthood I hold, and in thy name, silence the man so that he can not speak, so that he may feel his efforts are futile, and also that he may not have a heart attack and also that the false impression that we might have given it to him wouldn’t be believed by the neighborhood.”

I closed the silent prayer and kept walking at our normal quick pace. I turned around while walking up the hill to see the old man, with his mouth moving, but no words coming out, slowing down and finally stopping. My companion turned when I did, and he viewed it as well. We walked another 50 yards or so and got into our car. My companion was senior. He sat in the driver’s seat and said, “What just happened?” I gave a quick answer and we drove off to the next area. We never talked about it again. But when I came home after my mission, I was asked if I had any spiritual experiences regarding the priesthood. I told the story.

Mudcat, I don’t think the Satan would ever want you to know the potential power you would have in bringing understanding to people about Jesus Christ as a result of having the Authority of the Priesthood, as well as the Gift of the Holy Ghost. And by the way, that doesn’t make me any better than you, but it does want me to share it with you. You know, and I know that Jesus Christ loves us all – We all need to realize that he wants us to grow as well.

[Vance]

Vance,

Predictably, you refused to answer a simple question that would have exposed your ridiculous claim that I dishonestly misrepresented what you said as hot air.

Good-bye.

Predictably, you attempt to create a diversion from the fact that you dishonestly misrepresented what I actually said.

[CV75]

Both LDS and I share a view that we are free agents. We are responsible for our actions, what we do actually does bring about self caused outcomes, consequences and so forth. Following that, then it would stand to reason that there is something that the LDS believer has done to be ready for the full truth and also that there is something the non-believer has not done to be ready for the truth. So my question is a two part.

1. What is it that LDS beleiver has done to be prepared for the full truth?

2. What is it that non beleiver has not done to be prepared for the full truth?

I believe that preparation for the the specific principles of truth that are unique to the Restored Gospel is independent of church membership. For anyone, receiving truth depends on a) the spiritual characteristics of the individual (see the parables of the sower and the talents); b) the opportunities he has to exercise those characteristics on specific principles of truth (Acts 17:26-28); and c) his openness to receiving the new or next undiscovered truth (Matthew 9:16-17; 18:4). The same would be true for the imperceptible stages one undergoes in developing characteristics and opportunities that eventually lead to acquiring the full truth (John 8:31-32; 1 Peter 5:6-11).

The parables show that anyone can consciously prepare to receive more truth by honoring the truth he possesses (John 7:17). Because this preparation appears to be relative to one’s circumstances (Luke 12:48), only the Lord can judge what one has or hasn’t done to receive the truth in a time and place that accords with His plan and will for him.

While we rightly invite one another to partake of the truth that we possess, and invite each other to try the methods by which that truth may be known, no man can rightly tell the other what he has or has not done to know the truth, unless he has been given the keys to do so. So when the truth is rejected, it is safest to assume that John 9:3 applies.

[CV75]

Both LDS and I share a view that we are free agents. We are responsible for our actions, what we do actually does bring about self caused outcomes, consequences and so forth. Following that, then it would stand to reason that there is something that the LDS believer has done to be ready for the full truth and also that there is something the non-believer has not done to be ready for the truth. So my question is a two part.

1. What is it that LDS beleiver has done to be prepared for the full truth?

2. What is it that non beleiver has not done to be prepared for the full truth?

I believe that preparation for the the specific principles of truth that are unique to the Restored Gospel is independent of church membership. For anyone, receiving truth depends on a) the spiritual characteristics of the individual (see the parables of the sower and the talents); b) the opportunities he has to exercise those characteristics on specific principles of truth (Acts 17:26-28); and c) his openness to receiving the new or next undiscovered truth (Matthew 9:16-17; 18:4). The same would be true for the imperceptible stages one undergoes in developing characteristics and opportunities that eventually lead to acquiring the full truth (John 8:31-32; 1 Peter 5:6-11).

The parables show that anyone can consciously prepare to receive more truth by honoring the truth he possesses (John 7:17). Because this preparation appears to be relative to one’s circumstances (Luke 12:48), only the Lord can judge what one has or hasn’t done to receive the truth in a time and place that accords with His plan and will for him.

While we rightly invite one another to partake of the truth that we possess, and invite each other to try the methods by which that truth may be known, no man can rightly tell the other what he has or has not done to know the truth, unless he has been given the keys to do so. So when the truth is rejected, it is safest to assume that John 9:3 applies.