How Crucial Is The Life Of Joseph Smith Pre-1830?

[stemelbow]

It seems to me there are some significant question marks in the life of Joseph Smith during the 1820s (and at other times in his life, but we'll stick with that decade). It is significant, for instance, to many critics that Joseph was involved in "treasure seeking" or using a peep stone to find stuff. In the 1826 "trial", I believe, on commenting on the trail, Joseph himself said he had success in finding lost property. What is that all about? At some point in his teen years he found a stone that he used, apparently, to find things, or as it was used later in the 20s, to translate. How does that story work? Did he find the stone after receiving revelation from God about needing a tool? Did he ever misuse the stone, as in finding treasure? I believe it was later in the 30s where he said, essentially, that the story of his money digging was pretty much a one time experience (or am I misremembering?). On this, do we concede to much as defenders? Is Rough Stone Rolling giving too much credence to this stuff, since the evidence seems far too scarce? In all of this is it far too easy for us to look back, with perhaps a different perspective, and see things that just did not occur to Joseph at the time? For instance, Joseph reported many years after teh fact that he had been heavily persecuted for relating his First Vision account. But in all our efforts we simply don't have anything, as far as I'm aware, to indicate the First Vision took place when he later claims it did. Is it reasonable to think Joseph saw the first vision as personal and not worth talking about much, but then also somehow square that with the idea that he told people and for his claims he was persecuted? particularly since there is scant evidence, if any, to show that he was greatly persecuted (I mean was he teased as kids can be or was he beat up, or was he actually the focus of people's attention, including adults)?

I have to say and wonder, with all that we have of his life, of the things he said, and of the things his contemporaries said and did, there seems to be plenty of unknowns. What are we to make of them?

[ldsfaqs]

To me it's easy given all the facts.

It was simply a poor small town farm boy, who as any small town farm boy does, goes hunting for treasures, and given that Joseph was starting to become a Prophet of God, he clearly was starting to tap into those Visions and Revelations (seeing beyond the vail), and thus the stone, the treasure seeking etc. where simply a natural and normal part of his experiences as a youth. He was no "necromancer" pagan, or any other malarkey, it was simply part of being as a kid, and then when he got some things right, he wondered if he could make money doing it, and anyone naturally would. Of course, he discovered that he wasn't supposed to use his gift that way, and was chastised for it, and ultimately prevented from using it that way, and so he stopped going down that path when he started to abuse his gift.

Remember that the Urim and Thummim was also essentially "seer stones", just used like spectacles instead.

[thesometimesaint]

stemelbow:

The least generous interpretation would be that the life experiences of a poor young lad in semirural America of the 1820's are quite a bit different than us city slickers of 21st Century America.

[stemelbow]

stemelbow:

The least generous interpretation would be that the life experiences of a poor young lad in semirural America of the 1820's are quite a bit different than us city slickers of 21st Century America.

Well I don't know. I mean I didn't spend my days clearing land for agriculture, and if I did, I probably would have been driving some sort of tractor machine rather than chopping with an axe and digging with a shovel. Isn't that alone quite a different life experience? Though having grown up a bit poor, by our modern standards, I didn't go about trying to find a job in my teens to support the family either. I went and found a job to buy myself a car, buy all those non-essentials, and save a few bucks.

I guess i'm just not sure what you mean.

[thesometimesaint]

stemelbow:

I agree.

Life was a lot harder in the 1820's than it is today. For the bulk of humanity life was often cruel, always brutal, dirty, and thankfully short(It was not uncommon for old men to thank God for pneumonia), and that probably went for women as well.

Farming, and farm life was backbreakingly hard with 24 hr. days the rule during planting and harvest seasons. Add in a lack of modern medicine. Any infection/disease/injury could easily turn fatal. Deaths among child was common.

Joseph grew up in a time when children were considered an econmic assset to be used and exploited not only by employers but by their own families as well. Outsourceing teens, and young adults to neighbors for work was standard practice particularly in the rural to semirural areas of this country. In cities they went to work in the mills and factories. Sometimes right next to their parents.

Which in my mind makes what the young Joseph did all the more incredible.

[Joseph Antley]

Those are a lot of questions to stick in one post.

[bjw]

I think the main issue here is how this affects the Book of Mormon, which is what the truth claims of the church rests on. When the treasure-digging lore shows up in the Book of Mormon it tends to cast doubt on the truthfulness of the book. It was a major hurdle for me to get over in gaining a testimony of the LDS church. Passages that refer to treasure slipping through the ground seem to be against the theory of a tight translation of text, and the Joseph may have incorporated some 19th century elements in the text.

It would be interesting to find out if any of these legends are in American Indian lore as remnants of this happening with the Nephites and Lamanites.

[Storm Rider]

It seems to me there are some significant question marks in the life of Joseph Smith during the 1820s (and at other times in his life, but we'll stick with that decade). It is significant, for instance, to many critics that Joseph was involved in "treasure seeking" or using a peep stone to find stuff. In the 1826 "trial", I believe, on commenting on the trail, Joseph himself said he had success in finding lost property. What is that all about? At some point in his teen years he found a stone that he used, apparently, to find things, or as it was used later in the 20s, to translate. How does that story work? Did he find the stone after receiving revelation from God about needing a tool? Did he ever misuse the stone, as in finding treasure? I believe it was later in the 30s where he said, essentially, that the story of his money digging was pretty much a one time experience (or am I misremembering?). On this, do we concede to much as defenders? Is Rough Stone Rolling giving too much credence to this stuff, since the evidence seems far too scarce? In all of this is it far too easy for us to look back, with perhaps a different perspective, and see things that just did not occur to Joseph at the time? For instance, Joseph reported many years aftertheh fact that he had been heavily persecuted for relating his First Vision account. But in all our efforts we simply don't have anything, as far as I'm aware, to indicate the First Vision took place when he later claims it did. Is it reasonable to think Joseph saw the first vision as personal and not worth talking about much, but then also somehow square that with the idea that he told people and for his claims he was persecuted? particularly since there is scant evidence, if any, to show that he was greatly persecuted (I mean was he teased as kids can be or was he beat up, or was he actually the focus of people's attention, including adults)?

I have to say and wonder, with all that we have of his life, of the things he said, and of the things his contemporaries said and did, there seems to be plenty of unknowns. What are we to make of them?

Visions are interesting events in the life of an individual. The more common personal spiritual experiences most of us enjoy are similar, but without the presence of angels or God; however, we still tend to keep them personal and share them rarely. I suspect Joseph Smith reacted similar to the way we would have reacted if we saw God the Father and his Son, Jesus.

The life of Joseph Smith affects people differently. Some members have a great focus of the testimony built upon Joseph and his accomplishments. Others focus on them to a much lesser degree. As I look back at my life I have to say that I have never felt particularly close to Joseph. I pretty much limited my view of him to being the instrument through which God restored the Church to the earth. I think for this reason his "humanness" of Joseph is easily accepted. Did he use peep stones? Yes. Did he search for treasure with them? Yes. He had quite the reputation for being successful and people sought him out and hired him to search for treasure on their behalf. Even when he said he was not interested he would finally give in and assist them.FirstDid the FIrst Vision happen as Joseph indicated it did in his 1838 account? We have no reason to disagree with him. Why should we do otherwise? I separate leaders from the mantle they carry. They are men first and foremost. None of the GAs are perfect; some are more spiritual than others; some are outstanding managers; others have other qualifications. Regardless, God has called them for a purpose and they all fall short in their work. That is the very definition of being human. Joseph Smith was human and through him God was able to make his Will come to pass.