Boa - Intresting Historic Insites

[Zakuska]

Heres some intresting Historic quotes about Abraham that cooberate the story outlined in the BOA:

“Abraham excelled all in nobility and wisdom; he sought and obtained the knowledge of astrology and the Chaldean craft... he traveled to Phoenicia and dwelt there. He pleased the Phoenician king by teaching the Phoenicians the cycles of the Sun and Moon, and everything else as well... [in Egypt] Abraham lived in Heliopolis with the Egyptian priests and taught them much: He explained astrology and the other sciences to them.”

- Pseudo Eupolemus.

“Abraham... came to Egypt with all his household to the Egyptian king Pharothothes and taught him astrology.”

- Artapanus.

“...before the coming of Abraham, the Egyptians were ignorant of these sciences, which thus traveled from the Chaldeans into Egypt, [and then] passed to the Greeks.”

- Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews.

“The Chaldeans exercised themselves most especially with astronomy, and attributed all things to the movement of the stars, believing that whatever is in the world is governed by forces encompassed in numbers and numerical proportions... seeking out the numerical arrangement according to the cycles of the Sun and Moon, the planets, and the fixed stars… .”

- Philo, on Abraham.

http://www.bibliotec...ovingios_08.htm

D&C 4

1 Now behold, a marvelous work is about to come forth among the children of men.

2 Therefore, O ye that embark in the service of God, see that ye serve him with all your heart, might, mind and strength, that ye may stand blameless before God at the last day.

3 Therefore, if ye have desires to serve God ye are called to the work;

4 For behold the field is white already to harvest; and lo, he that thrusteth in his sickle with his might, the same layeth up in store that he perisheth not, but bringeth salvation to his soul;

5 And faith, hope, charity and love, with an eye single to the glory of God, qualify him for the work.

6 Remember faith, virtue, knowledge, temperance, patience, brotherly kindness, godliness, charity, humility, diligence.

7 Ask, and ye shall receive; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. Amen

Edited August 12, 2011 by Zakuska

[David T]

Interesting, and it is true there are many connections with other Pseudepigraphical material, but not particularly useful in trying to prove an ancient origin for the Book, seeing as Joseph and his associates was and were well acquainted with Josephus and other of the key aspects of that tradition (most of which are very late to begin with), cited them in their periodicals, read from them for pleasure on occasions, etc.

Edited August 12, 2011 by nackhadlow

[Maidservant]

A little bit stonehenge-y there too, maybe. Cool.

I just finished teaching my son about the succession of great civilizations of the whole earth and I started with Ur (the Chaldeans here) and then Egypt was next and then Greek-Roman. I did this from my own head of what I understand of history (I am a history student). Each civilization has been the heir of the one previous (continuing in to today).

I wonder what "chaldean(s)" means and what language it is?

This attribution is also interesting in terms of the astronomical/astrological passages in the Book of Abraham . . . in other words, the discussion there is not ex nihilo in Abraham's brain. Rather, it seems to me that he was pondering on knowledge he already possessed (such as we all do) and the Lord opened his mind into some revelation (such as what happens to us based on our knowledge and experience).

Again, cool.

[volgadon]

Interesting, and it is true there are many connections with other Pseudepigraphical material, but not particularly useful in trying to prove an ancient origin for the Book, seeing as Joseph and his associates was and were well acquainted with Josephus and other of the key aspects of that tradition (most of which are very late to begin with), cited them in their periodicals, read from them for pleasure on occasions, etc.

I've come to the conclusion that "how could Joseph have known" is kind of a pointless question. One can almost always point to a parallel closer to Joseph in time and space. To me, the true value in ancient parallels is how they help us find the text's unique voice. It goes deeper than apologetics.

[wenglund]

Interesting, and it is true there are many connections with other Pseudepigraphical material, but not particularly useful in trying to prove an ancient origin for the Book, seeing as Joseph and his associates was and were well acquainted with Josephus and other of the key aspects of that tradition (most of which are very late to begin with), cited them in their periodicals, read from them for pleasure on occasions, etc.

As prolific a reader as Joseph is alleged to have been, I think it remarkable that he was able to grab bits and pieces of the Abraham story from this book and that, and synthesize it all into a running narrative that also included, of all things, a unique version of the creation story.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited August 12, 2011 by wenglund

[Zakuska]

I've come to the conclusion that "how could Joseph have known" is kind of a pointless question. One can almost always point to a parallel closer to Joseph in time and space. To me, the true value in ancient parallels is how they help us find the text's unique voice. It goes deeper than apologetics.

Me too. I think it developed in the apologist vernacular (one that I myself have used before) as some sort of a shock and awe tactic to make JS seem larger than life. Personally... I feel his day to day insights and revelations came through a more naturalistic way. I mean even the Papyra caught his eye. Why wouldn't Josephus or the Apocrypha aid him along the way?

[volgadon]

Me too. I think it developed in the apologist vernacular (one that I myself have used before) as some sort of a shock and awe tactic to make JS seem larger than life. Personally... I feel his day to day insights and revelations came through a more naturalistic way. I mean even the Papyra caught his eye. Why wouldn't Josephus or the Apocrypha aid him along the way?

I can certainly agree with that. Why wouldn't he want to read one of the few books filling in the gaps between the Old and New Testaments, a book which also described life at the time of Jesus. We do know that he read Jasher, so why not Josephus?

[Zakuska]

I have to qualify that though... I don't think he had read any of that by the time he was translating the BOM. So when we look there and find things with old world Parallels (eg Like Margaret Barker and Lehi's dream) it does give one pause. Later works such as the D&C and Periodicals he wrote etc. I wouldn't be surprised in the least with those.

[Glenn101]

I've come to the conclusion that "how could Joseph have known" is kind of a pointless question. One can almost always point to a parallel closer to Joseph in time and space. To me, the true value in ancient parallels is how they help us find the text's unique voice. It goes deeper than apologetics.

Maybe the question should be, how did he know and retain so much?

Glenn

[volgadon]

Maybe the question should be, how did he know and retain so much?

Glenn

That is not very productive either. Some individuals simply are. You don't consider the Vilna Gaon's prodigious memory and vast knowledge as proof of prophetic status, do you.

[robuchan]

Was George Oliver equally prophetic and insightful? All this stuff can be found in Antiquities of Freemasonry.