The Source Of Joseph Smith'S Reported Translation From The Kinderhook Plates

[Senator]

Here is a positive of that isolated Kinderhook plates character:

And here is the GAEL's "Ho-e-oop-hah," which has been printed by Michael Marquardt:

Are the dissected elements of this symbol shown on the GAEL?

Edited August 10, 2011 by Senator

[DonBradley]

Are the dissected elements of this symbol shown on the GAEL?

The GAEL doesn't show this one being broken down, like it does that first one. It shows only the result of the dissection: each component as a separate character.

Don

[DonBradley]

This may have been answered elsewhere, but I have a question for you Don.

How the heck did you make the connection between the Kinderhook Plates and the GAEL? Did you first notice the similar characters and then connect the explanations? Did you notice the similar explanations and then connect the characters? Or was there something else that indicated to you that the two might be connected?

I stumbled on the connection while reading in the GAEL. I initially made the content match, realizing that all the translation content provided by Clayton could be readily derived from this one character definition. I surmised that this same character, or one very similar, appeared on the plates, and excitedly looked at the Kinderhook plates facsimiles to see. I found it pretty quickly.

With further reading of the GAEL I realized that under its system of breaking characters down the KP character would be dissected into the semicircle, the theta-like symbol inside, and the vertical line that crosses its top, each of which would be treated as a separate character. Hence the match was essentially perfect. I had been able to predict the character match from the content match.

I suspected there would be further evidence to corroborate this mode of translation, but had no idea just how great that evidence would be. I found the eyewitness report of Joseph comparing the KP with the "Egyptian alphabet" a couple years ago while looking for newspaper reports on the Kinderhook plates. The eyewitness testimony was a shocker--I hadn't expect that. And Mark was just bowled over. He initially thought maybe I had somehow done my own bit of forgery, creating that NY Herald article as a a joke. But what was "too good to be true" was true.

Don

[Areabird]

I'm still having a tough time following this. If Joseph Smith only had an 'empty boat' with an accompanying translation, how did he get essentially the same translation with a full boat (many additional 'characters' included). The boat shape is similar, but the Kinderhook symbol is so much more invovled that I would think it would have a heck of a lot more to say than what Joseph came up with.

Or, is the theory just that he recognized the boat symbol (albeit with extra characters) and surmised that at the very least the full boat would have included what he had 'translated' from the empty boat?

Hope I made sense...

[DonBradley]

Hey AreaBird,

I'm not positing that Joseph is attempting a real or full translation--only that he makes a single GAEL character match that explains everything else. I'm sure he did think there was additional content to be found in the other symbols that went with this character. But that wouldn't preclude him making a quick character match and using it to infer some of the content from the KPs. I see this as a really quick thing since it would have been so simple. Compare one of the most prominent characters, perhaps the most prominent, from the top of one of the plates to a character a whopping two pages into the GAEL character list, and there you've got it--you can explain everything Clayton says Joseph "translated" from the Kinderhook plates.

I wouldn't be surprised if the whole endeavor took less than ten minutes.

Don

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Hey AreaBird,

I'm not positing that Joseph is attempting a real or full translation--only that he makes a single GAEL character match that explains everything else. I'm sure he did think there was additional content to be found in the other symbols that went with this character. But that wouldn't preclude him making a quick character match and using it to infer some of the content from the KPs. I see this as a really quick thing since it would have been so simple. Compare one of the most prominent characters, perhaps the most prominent, from the top of one of the plates to a character a whopping two pages into the GAEL character list, and there you've got it--you can explain everything Clayton says Joseph "translated" from the Kinderhook plates.

I wouldn't be surprised if the whole endeavor took less than ten minutes.

Don

So it almost at this points sounds (JS talking here) more like a "Hey I just notice a similar character in the GAEL and this is what it says in the GAEL"? And Clayton and others thought he made a translation off of that? That is what this is sounding like. I don't think JS would have ever called this a translation of any sorts.

How familiar do you suppose Clayton was with the whole KEP project?

BTW this past couple of threads have been the most bitchen threads I have seen in a while. Thanks Don.

Edited August 11, 2011 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[DonBradley]

Hey Mola,

So it almost at this points sounds (JS talking here) more like a "Hey I just notice a similar character in the GAEL and this is what it says in the GAEL"? And Clayton and others thought he made a translation off of that? That is what this is sounding like. I don't think JS would have ever called this a translation of any sorts.

I'm not sure he wouldn't have used the term. But I don't think it's really significant whether he did. The important fact is that he identified a GAEL character matching one in the KP and associated the GAEL character's definition with the KP character. He may have called this translation or not. Once the character definition in the GAEL was identified, it was natural that it would be made coherent and attached to someone in particular, namely the person with whom it was reportedly buried. Joseph Smith seems likely to have done this, and Clayton's journal suggests he did. It's also possible that some of the coherence brought to the definition was added by Clayton.

How familiar do you suppose Clayton was with the whole KEP project?

I doubt he was very familiar. Clayton was in England and non-LDS until years after the GAEL was created. The GAEL was kept in Joseph's office (as Willard Richards's November 1843 diary shows). So Clayton may have looked at it there. But I can't think of any direct indication that Clayton was familiar with the GAEL.

It's possible that although Joseph himself compared the KP and GAEL it was not initially his idea. I don't know if W. W. Phelps was around at the time or if there's indication that he was connected with the Kinderhook plates incident. But he was gung-ho enough, and involved enough, with the GAEL to have suggested such a course of action.

His involvement is, however, pure speculation. If sources could connect him with the KP incident, that would be a different matter. But right now I think the highest probability is that it was Joseph's idea for him to make the KP-GAEL comparison.

BTW this past couple of threads have been the most bitchen threads I have seen in a while. Thanks Don.

Oh, wow--cool! Thanks for letting me know! =)

Don

[altersteve]

I'm still slightly confused about what the GAEL is. I know it stands for Grammar and Alphabet of the Egyptian Language or something, but what is that exactly? People say it is by W. W. Phelps. Is it a book?

[LeSellers]

... have been the most bit**** threads I...

Why?!! Why?!! Why?!!

Lehi

Edited August 11, 2011 by LeSellers

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Why?!! Why?!! Why?!!

Lehi

Because it is an apt word that describes how I feel about the past few threads. I do not understand why that word is so objectionable. I use it all the time. It does not mean that same as the word "bi***".

But I suspect you knew this already.

Take care.

[LeSellers]

I do not understand why that word is so objectionable. I use it all the time. It does not mean that same as the word "bi***".

But I suspect you knew this already.

It came from **** (and not the original female canine connotation): it means the same thing.

That you use it all the time is no evidence that it is unobjectionable.

Lehi

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

It came from **** (and not the original female canine connotation): it means the same thing.

That you use it all the time is no evidence that it is unobjectionable.

Lehi

It has never meant the same thing as it's root word. Bitchen is a word from the 60's that means awesome or good, or beyond cool and was coined by the surfers in CA. Oh well this is not worth arguing over. I simply will agree to disagree.

[JeffM]

...compare it to the GAEL's "Ho-e-oop-hah" character: ...

Hi all,

I was just passing by and noticed this conversation. What language is "Ho-e-oop-hah" from? Is this Egyptian?

[scooby]

I'm still slightly confused about what the GAEL is. I know it stands for Grammar and Alphabet of the Egyptian Language or something, but what is that exactly? People say it is by W. W. Phelps. Is it a book?

Read post #15:

[wenglund]

Hi all,

I was just passing by and noticed this conversation. What language is "Ho-e-oop-hah" from? Is this Egyptian?

Excellent question. I am looking into the sounds on another thread, though not necessarily the origins of the sounds. From what I have gathered, Egyptologists may not recognize it as ancient or modern Egyptian. And, I am not sure it can be linked to any extant language.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[DonBradley]

Hey all,

There's aDeseret News article about my Kinderhook plates presentation.

The article doesn't give the reader much information on what I argued. Hopefully they'll measurably "get it" from what they read.

What really interests me is the response on the "Recovery" board. This is from "Heresy," who has just read the DN piece:

This is it folks, the high point of apologetics for the year. The church pumps millions into FARMS and its PR dept for this.

As a graduate student taking out student loans and trying to get his car fixed so it will pass inspection, this just made me guffaw. Somebody forgot that I need millions in order to do this research. Millions, I tell you!

I won't hold my breath on that one...

Don

P.S. Check out my picture. I look rather apostolic, eh?

Edited August 11, 2011 by DonBradley

[Helorum]

Check out my picture. I look rather apostolic, eh?

Looks like you put on a few pounds and lost a bit of hair recently, too . . . . .

[DonBradley]

Looks like you put on a few pounds and lost a bit of hair recently, too . . . . .

And I have finally recovered from Untameable Hair Syndrome.

[wenglund]

And I have finally recovered from Untameable Hair Syndrome.

The next thing is to do something about the overly serious look on your face. as it is, people like "Heresy" wont be able to tell when your joking.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited August 12, 2011 by wenglund