Couple Of Questions About Willie & Martin

[zelder]

Maybe a history buff can help me out with this. Wikipedia states that about 100 people stayed behind at Florence after the debate over whether to stay or push forward. What happened to the people who stayed behind? Did they survive the winter okay and did they make the trek west in the spring?

Second question: I heard that Brigham Young rebuked Franklin Richards for encouraging the saints to go forward so late in the season. If this is true I want to read what Brisham Young said. Can someone help me out with this?

[kolipoki09]

Maybe a history buff can help me out with this. Wikipedia states that about 100 people stayed behind at Florence after the debate over whether to stay or push forward. What happened to the people who stayed behind? Did they survive the winter okay and did they make the trek west in the spring?

There is no single answer for what happened. Some stayed in Florence and made the journey west the next spring. Others never went and settled in Nebraska or other surrounding areas. After the organization of the RLDS Church, the RLDS missionaries prided themselves on getting Utah-bound Mormon emigrants to stay in Iowa and Nebraska and join the Reorganization. One of these converts (if my memory serves me correctly), was Nancy Ann Childress Osburn Armour Turner - the great-great grandmother of this guy.

Second question: I heard that Brigham Young rebuked Franklin Richards for encouraging the saints to go forward so late in the season. If this is true I want to read what Brisham Young said. Can someone help me out with this?

Weather, Disaster, and Responsibility: An Essay on the Willie and Martin Handcart Story

On November 2 1856 after first reports of the disaster in the

making arrived in great salt lake city both Heber C Kimball and

Brigham young strongly addressed the fatal error made at Florence

in august president young opened the November 2nd meeting at

the Bowery with a short sermon indicating his continuing deep

concern about those still out on the trail then president Kimball

came to the stand and rebuked those who had begun to complain

that the late start was a mistake that was affecting the fortunes of

everyone those providing for the resupply and rescue as well as

the emigrants Kimball somewhat mockingly paraphrased detractors

as claiming what an awful thing it is why is it that the First

Presidency are so unwise in their calculations but it falls on their

shoulders and then went on to say:

Well the late arrival of those on the plains cannot be helped now

but let me tell you most emphatically that if all who were entrusted

with the care and management of this years immigration had done

as they were counseled and dictated by the First Presidency of this

church the sufferings and hardships now endured by the companies

on their way here would have been avoided...

if the immigration could have been carried on as dictated by

Br Brigham there would have been no trouble.

President Kimball's remarks regarding criticism brought president

young abruptly back to the stand among much else he rebuked

Franklin D Richards and Daniel Spencer for not having terminated

further emigration beyond Florence while they were there

in late August.

[Anijen]

Maybe a history buff can help me out with this. Wikipedia states that about 100 people stayed behind at Florence after the debate over whether to stay or push forward. What happened to the people who stayed behind? Did they survive the winter okay and did they make the trek west in the spring?

Second question: I heard that Brigham Young rebuked Franklin Richards for encouraging the saints to go forward so late in the season. If this is true I want to read what Brisham Young said. Can someone help me out with this?

The Willie and Martin Handcart companies were late not due to disobedience to BY but was more complex and there is no simple surmising saying many died because they did not follow BY. One could argue that these Saints were following the command of coming to Zion. Some reasons that come to mind are that the sheer number of saints immigrating from England, Wales other UK areas... They had very little money. The church had a program to help bring them but because of more circumstances such as finances running short and little material enough to construct a more sturdier handcart etc. Many saints were taken in by the kindness and compassion of the Iowans and Nebraskans and many settled there. With those who stayed behind after the debate in Florence, it seems they left the church (not all). But a small few who made it all the way to Utah left the church after arriving, so I do not think that some of the apostasy resulted from the trek alone.

This is just a short summary of it. I really did not give the reasons justice but was more of an attempt to paraphrase why they were so late. I hoped it helped in some small way.

Edited to add; It is easy to some dismiss this as a failure on church leadership but the simple answer is Nebraska is a very cold state ( I live in Nebraska). If the saints did decide to stay in Florence they would have met the same conditions perhaps for a longer duration, because it would force them to stay an additional time to let the winter pass perhaps 6-7 more months. Florence at that time might have been able to accommodate one hundred people but over a thousand it certainly could not. They had little money and supplies and would be a burden if they stayed. Now with the knowledge of hindsight I think they probably would have been wise to stay and rely on the compassion of the residents of Florence and surrounding communities. But that still did not guarantee anything. With the early command to gather to Zion and many not knowing the advice of Brigham Young they relied on faith and perhaps goaded on by a talk on faith by James G. Willie the majority voted to continue on. I have only admiration for these saints whom my children can trace their ancestors directly through the Willie and Martin handcarts. I have searched for journals on both my wife and my side during this time but could find none, perhaps the weight limit kept them from having such. The later entries from their journals written after the fact only support the notion that it was incredibly hard but glad they did it.

Edited July 28, 2011 by Anijen

[zelder]

Thanks for the responses. Taking care of a nearly a 1,000 saints at Florence would have been difficult indeed. But sometime shortly after they left Florence and justa day or two before Richards showed up, they lost about 30 cattle. At that point is would have been a no brainer to turn back and hole up. Furthermore, I was reading Savage's journal and he made mention a number of times about seeing vast herds of bison and killing some. At that time there were millions of bison in that area and they could have easily kept the saints fed on bison meat for the winter. The willie/martin story became more of a tredgey to me when I realized it happened due to poor leadership. Hindside is usually 20/20 though.

[Nenahnezad]

Thanks for the responses. Taking care of a nearly a 1,000 saints at Florence would have been difficult indeed. But sometime shortly after they left Florence and justa day or two before Richards showed up, they lost about 30 cattle. At that point is would have been a no brainer to turn back and hole up. Furthermore, I was reading Savage's journal and he made mention a number of times about seeing vast herds of bison and killing some. At that time there were millions of bison in that area and they could have easily kept the saints fed on bison meat for the winter. The willie/martin story became more of a tredgey to me when I realized it happened due to poor leadership. Hindside is usually 20/20 though.

There you go: "They could have easily kept the saints fed on bison meat for the winter."

Yes, millions of bison were available, docile and walked right into camp. And impoverished men, women and children from Europe could have easily killed them. I bet they also went about Dancing with Wolves, since life was so easy for them.

This is the premise for blaming leadership. Of course, nowadays, it's really easy for us to blame leadership, too, because we all now how easy it is to kill buffalo. I saw a movie about it.

[Anijen]

Thanks for the responses. Taking care of a nearly a 1,000 saints at Florence would have been difficult indeed. But sometime shortly after they left Florence and justa day or two before Richards showed up, they lost about 30 cattle. At that point is would have been a no brainer to turn back and hole up. Furthermore, I was reading Savage's journal and he made mention a number of times about seeing vast herds of bison and killing some. At that time there were millions of bison in that area and they could have easily kept the saints fed on bison meat for the winter. The willie/martin story became more of a tredgey to me when I realized it happened due to poor leadership. Hindside is usually 20/20 though.

Do you have a source for the millions of bison? A link would be even better. I assume if it was as easy as you say then food would not have been a problem. Since we know from many journal entries that food was a problem even to the point of trading necessary materials for some meat that it wasn't as easy to get as mentioned. I will have to agree to disagree a little here I think the leadership was not poor but to the contrary was exemplary. These leaders had made the trek before some had multiple times. It is easy for us in our perfect hindsight to read about the decision making of the saints and our leaders but to judge them with presentism seems a bit on the speculation side.

"To turn back and hole up" would come with its own set of problems including the same ones they would have had on the trail, such as starvation and the cold, furthermore they did not have the time or the finances to make another Winter Quarters (in Florence). The people of Florence I can only speculate would help but not nearly enough to go around to help all of them. I think to lump it all into a "poor leadership" category is wrong. Again I feel they did the best they could with what they had.

Edited July 29, 2011 by Anijen

[Ahab]

Maybe a history buff can help me out with this. Wikipedia states that about 100 people stayed behind at Florence after the debate over whether to stay or push forward. What happened to the people who stayed behind? Did they survive the winter okay and did they make the trek west in the spring?

Second question: I heard that Brigham Young rebuked Franklin Richards for encouraging the saints to go forward so late in the season. If this is true I want to read what Brisham Young said. Can someone help me out with this?

Let me guess: You recently saw 17 Miracles and now you're interested in finding out more?

[kolipoki09]

Thanks for the responses. Taking care of a nearly a 1,000 saints at Florence would have been difficult indeed. But sometime shortly after they left Florence and justa day or two before Richards showed up, they lost about 30 cattle. At that point is would have been a no brainer to turn back and hole up. Furthermore, I was reading Savage's journal and he made mention a number of times about seeing vast herds of bison and killing some. At that time there were millions of bison in that area and they could have easily kept the saints fed on bison meat for the winter. The willie/martin story became more of a tredgey to me when I realized it happened due to poor leadership. Hindside is usually 20/20 though.

The number of bison along the westward emigrant trails tended to vastly diminish past Fort Laramie. Bison preferred to feed on the Great Plains, though even by 1856 their historical range had diminished significantly. The likelihood of conditions being suitable for hunting, especially among a group made up almost entirely of greenhorns is very little. The reason they weren't hunting bison was the same reason they were in Martin's Cove - the weather was so bad it was nearly impossible to move on. Even as a well-fed, life-long muzzleloader hunter (using a rifle contemporary to 1856), I know what my limits are. They had become desperate.

I've stood in Martin's Cove during a snowstorm (June 2005) - it was absolutely miserable. The area would be prime real estate for wind farm developers, since I've never been in the area when the wind wasn't at least a sustained 40mph+. Central Wyoming to this day remains largely uninhabited. Leaders took the risk assuming they would be able to walk faster than they did. Other handcart companies had made the journey relatively quickly considering it was done entirely on foot. But problems early on, coupled with a hit-or-miss weather pattern made for extremely difficult circumstances. Given the fact that they were pulling handcarts rather than wagons, they had meager supplies to begin with. The very idea of pulling a cart to sustain an entire family for two to three months was risky, and yet it enabled thousands of people to emigrate to Utah who otherwise would have been delayed or unable to. That was a risk those in the companies were willing to take.

I have no doubt that had there been more experienced travelers in the company, the outcome would have been different. Even with our well-fed and well-rested stake youth group of 500+, I don't think we could have made it more than ten miles (on a good day).