Okrahomer Posted July 23, 2011 Posted July 23, 2011 The Deseret News recently published a 2-part series about Ronnie Lee Gardner's relationship with his LDS prison Bishop (Dan Bradshaw.) My link I found the Bishop's narrative quite moving. It leaves me wondering to what extent those who commit such a crime can be forgiven. Is exaltation possible? If "yes", under what circumstances? If "no", why not?
Fig-bearing Thistle Posted July 23, 2011 Posted July 23, 2011 The Deseret News recently published a 2-part series about Ronnie Lee Gardner's relationship with his LDS prison Bishop (Dan Bradshaw.) My link I found the Bishop's narrative quite moving. It leaves me wondering to what extent those who commit such a crime can be forgiven. Is exaltation possible? If "yes", under what circumstances? If "no", why not?I think that for an LDS person, who has entered into covenants with God, murdering a person prohibits the LDS murderer from inheriting the Celestial Kingdom. They can be forgiven of their sin, but they cannot inherit Celestial glory. Those in the Terrestial and Telestial Kingdoms will only receive that kingdom after having been forgiven, but forgiveness does not mean that a person inherits the highest glory.In another sense, the term "murder" is used in D&C 132:27 to denote the act of assenting to Christ's death. Under either definition, I don't think it is at all possible to commit an unpardonable sin, unless the person has first entered into certain binding covenants with God and THEN committed those sins outlined in scripture as "unpardonable."
altersteve Posted July 23, 2011 Posted July 23, 2011 I don't think you can inherit the celestial kingdom if you commit murder. That's my understanding.
LeSellers Posted July 23, 2011 Posted July 23, 2011 I don't think you can inherit the celestial kingdom if you commit murder. That's my understanding.The Anti-Nephi-Lehies (people of Ammon) committed murder, repented, and, as part of their covenant with God were forgiven. I would be astonished to find out they did not inherit Celestial glory, complete with exaltation. Lehi
altersteve Posted July 23, 2011 Posted July 23, 2011 The Anti-Nephi-Lehies (people of Ammon) committed murder, repented, and, as part of their covenant with God were forgiven. I would be astonished to find out they did not inherit Celestial glory, complete with exaltation. LehiWhat about David? He repented of his murderous deeds, but the Lord said that he would not inherit celestial glory because of what he did, even though his acts of adultery were forgiven completely.
Fig-bearing Thistle Posted July 23, 2011 Posted July 23, 2011 The Anti-Nephi-Lehies (people of Ammon) committed murder, repented, and, as part of their covenant with God were forgiven. I would be astonished to find out they did not inherit Celestial glory, complete with exaltation. LehiHad they made covenants with God prior to murdering people?
Fig-bearing Thistle Posted July 23, 2011 Posted July 23, 2011 (edited) What about David? He repented of his murderous deeds, but the Lord said that he would not inherit celestial glory because of what he did, even though his acts of adultery were forgiven completely.I believe this is because David had entered into covenants with God PRIOR to murdering Uriah to obtain Bathsheba. Entering covenants implies a higher accountability and consequence for breaking those covenants, than if the person did the same act without having entered covenants with God. Edited July 23, 2011 by Fig-bearing Thistle
LeSellers Posted July 23, 2011 Posted July 23, 2011 Had [the Anti-Nephi-Lehies] made covenants with God prior to murdering people?Not that the record shows. They were Lamanites, hated the Nephites (where the Church of God resided). There is no reason to assume they had, and many reasons to reject that idea. Not least of these is that When Ammon and, later, Aaron taught the kings the Gospel, they did not know Who God was. Lehi
LeSellers Posted July 23, 2011 Posted July 23, 2011 What about David? He repented of his murderous deeds, but the Lord said that he would not inherit celestial glory ...David is a wholly different kind of case. The Anti-Nephi-Lehies had not (as far as we know, and we know a lot) made covenants with God prior to their murders. David had. That alone is cause to look at them differently. Lehi
OUmd Posted July 23, 2011 Posted July 23, 2011 Depends on your definition of murder. The scriptures state clearly "thou shall not kill" and many interpret that as murder, but I can think of times where one might think "killing" is NOT "murder", but in my mind it is. Just as any sin, it is impossible to know how the Lord will judge each individual. I think it is arrogant to think that any sin can or cannot be forgiven when we will not be the ones to judge. There is nothing more powerful than the atonement of Christ. 2
inquiringmind Posted July 24, 2011 Posted July 24, 2011 (edited) The Deseret News recently published a 2-part series about Ronnie Lee Gardner's relationship with his LDS prison Bishop (Dan Bradshaw.) My link I found the Bishop's narrative quite moving. It leaves me wondering to what extent those who commit such a crime can be forgiven. Is exaltation possible? If "yes", under what circumstances? If "no", why not?David is a wholly different kind of case. The Anti-Nephi-Lehies had not (as far as we know, and we know a lot) made covenants with God prior to their murders. David had. That alone is cause to look at them differently. LehiWhy did Joseph say that no murderers could be baptized for the remission of their sins?If the ministers of religion had a proper understanding of eternal judgement, they would not be found attending the man who had forfeited his life to the injured laws of his country by shedding innocent blood. For such characters cannot be forgiven until they have paid the last farthing. The prayers of all the ministers in the world could never close the gates of h*** against a murderer...This is the case with murderers. They could not be baptized for the remission of sins, for they had shed innocent blood. (Joseph Smith's Commentary on the Bible, pg. 147.) Edited July 24, 2011 by inquiringmind
Okrahomer Posted July 24, 2011 Author Posted July 24, 2011 (edited) Thank you all for your responses. Since I am close to someone in this situation--where in fact covenants did precede the sin--I have struggled to know exactly how to believe and feel about him. I am familiar with the idea that a person in this situation has limited eternal prospects; however, I have never found it in my heart to repeat these sentiments to my prisoner friend. How would you counsel someone in this situation? Is there any hope?Not long after the horrible events that led to my friend’s incarceration, I happened to be in Provo and ended up attending a BYU fireside during which Elder John H. Groberg spoke. The title of his talk was “There is Always Hope.” My link Over time, a conviction (very similar to OUmed’s) has “distilled” upon me; and I have come to believe that Moroni 7:48 is as applicable to this dear brother as it is to me.By the way, I think Robert Cun****’s setting for this scripture is absolutely beautiful (Audio warning!): Edited July 24, 2011 by Okrahomer
inquiringmind Posted July 24, 2011 Posted July 24, 2011 (edited) Thank you all for your responses. Since I am close to someone in this situation--where in fact covenants did precede the sin--I have struggled to know exactly how to believe and feel about him. I am familiar with the idea that a person in this situation has limited eternal prospects; however, I have never found it in my heart to repeat these sentiments to my prisoner friend. How would you counsel someone in this situation? Is there any hope?Not long after the horrible events that led to my friend’s incarceration, I happened to be in Provo and ended up attending a BYU fireside during which Elder John H. Groberg spoke. The title of his talk was “There is Always Hope.” My link Over time, a conviction (very similar to OUmed’s) has “distilled” upon me; and I have come to believe that Moroni 7:48 is as applicable to this dear brother as it is to me.By the way, I think Robert Cun****’s setting for this scripture is absolutely beautiful (Audio warning!): I'm not LDS (and I'm interested in other comments on this topic), but I think I should point something out about that quote I posted.If the quote is accurate, and it's taken on face value, Joseph put all murderers in the same boat (regardless of whether or not they had made any covenants with God)--but nothing he said there implies that there's no hope for them.It doesn't even say anything about exaltation.What it seems to say is that no murderer can go directly to heaven (without first going to a place of punishment, and paying the last farthing.)I think the Lee who was excumunicated and executed for his involvement in the mountain meadows masacre recently had temple work done for him (and all his edowments restored?)And that alone would seem to indicate that there is hope for your friend (but I'm still interested in any thoughts on why Joseph seemed to say that repentant murders couldn't be baptized?) Edited July 24, 2011 by inquiringmind
scooby Posted July 24, 2011 Posted July 24, 2011 All murder is not created equal. There are endless combinations of circumstances, factors, thoughts, intents, and whatever else that make up any crime. There is also the factor of unpredictability. One situation may result in murder and another nearly identical situation may, by nothing more than chance, result in two people laughing and eating cookies around a fireplace. One person with a generally murderous heart may end up saving somebody's life and somebody with a generally good heart may end up taking somebody's life.I don't envy God's job of sorting us all out on judgement day and I also question whether this life can really provide the comprehensive, thorough, or even remotely fair test of obedience that many traditional Christians (and some Latter-day Saints) believe it's meant to provide. We, as human beings, are mired by infinitely complex sets of circumstances, mental states, natural or man-made impediments, and an infinite number of other factors completely outside of our control.It's clear to me that life is so complex, and our actions so inseparably influenced (and by some measure bound) by the disorder of chaos, chance, and tradition that many of these old, simplistic views of judgement must be woefully off-base, and also that this talk of the murderer being in the covenant or out of the covenant as if that has some kind of definite, immutable consequence in the matter is just plain astonishing to me. Are we to suppose that a murderer of one would be denied any hope of ever entering the Celestial kingdom because he was baptized when he was 8 while a murderer of twenty maintains that hope because he wasn't?My view is that either the life-as-a-test angle has been grossly overstated or that God's judgement will be vastly more merciful than we realize. I don't know how else to account for the markedly disparate experiences, advantages, or disadvantages each of us have in life. 1
Fig-bearing Thistle Posted July 24, 2011 Posted July 24, 2011 I think those are some good points.This much I know. 1.) God has all knowledge, and he know all the thoughts and intents of all people. 2.) God has all power and can do all things that are possible to be done. and 3.) I have no idea how God will use his knowledge and power except to know that he will be fair when judging humanity.All murder is not created equal. There are endless combinations of circumstances, factors, thoughts, intents, and whatever else that make up any crime. There is also the factor of unpredictability. One situation may result in murder and another nearly identical situation may, by nothing more than chance, result in two people laughing and eating cookies around a fireplace. One person with a generally murderous heart may end up saving somebody's life and somebody with a generally good heart may end up taking somebody's life.I don't envy God's job of sorting us all out on judgement day and I also question whether this life can really provide the comprehensive, thorough, or even remotely fair test of obedience that many traditional Christians (and some Latter-day Saints) believe it's meant to provide. We, as human beings, are mired by infinitely complex sets of circumstances, mental states, natural or man-made impediments, and an infinite number of other factors completely outside of our control.It's clear to me that life is so complex, and our actions so inseparably influenced (and by some measure bound) by the disorder of chaos, chance, and tradition that many of these old, simplistic views of judgement must be woefully off-base, and also that this talk of the murderer being in the covenant or out of the covenant as if that has some kind of definite, immutable consequence in the matter is just plain astonishing to me. Are we to suppose that a murderer of one would be denied any hope of ever entering the Celestial kingdom because he was baptized when he was 8 while a murderer of twenty maintains that hope because he wasn't?My view is that either the life-as-a-test angle has been grossly overstated or that God's judgement will be vastly more merciful than we realize. I don't know how else to account for the markedly disparate experiences, advantages, or disadvantages each of us have in life.
ldsfaqs Posted July 24, 2011 Posted July 24, 2011 Those commit Murder will not ever make the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom. It is true that someone can repent and be forgiven, and still potentially make the Celestial Kingdom, but with the shedding of "innocent" blood, there must be a price paid.God doesn't take kindly to the interference of the free agency of another, especially an innocent.God sent the flood because man had interfered so much in the free agency of children being born, not able to no good, that he killed everyone and started over.Those who are critical of LDS for saying there is "some limit" to grace when it concerns murder, simply don't know the scriptures.
Storm Rider Posted July 24, 2011 Posted July 24, 2011 The Deseret News recently published a 2-part series about Ronnie Lee Gardner's relationship with his LDS prison Bishop (Dan Bradshaw.) My link I found the Bishop's narrative quite moving. It leaves me wondering to what extent those who commit such a crime can be forgiven. Is exaltation possible? If "yes", under what circumstances? If "no", why not?I get very uncomfortable when anyone appears to speak definitively about what God would do or how he might judge us. What we know is that the taking of an innocent life is a most serious affront to God as well as to our brothers and sisters upon this earth. The mercy of God knows no bounds and we only understand a small part of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. It is one of my constant prayers that God will be as merciful with others as he will be with me. Exaltation is open to all those who have repented of their sins and who have a pure heart. In stating that I know that all will receive or at least have the opportunity to receive the needed ordinances. 2
One Clear Voice Posted July 24, 2011 Posted July 24, 2011 (edited) since I was old enough to understand and talk, from primary to the priesthood, Murder is the ONLY, unforgiven sin! Period! Edited July 24, 2011 by One Clear Voice
Jeff K. Posted July 24, 2011 Posted July 24, 2011 I will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men, D&C 64:10It is up to Heavenly Father.
LeSellers Posted July 24, 2011 Posted July 24, 2011 Depends on your definition of murder. The scriptures state clearly "thou shall not kill" and many interpret that as murder,...In Exodus, the commandment is "Thou shalt do no murder," not "thou shalt not kill."but I can think of times where one might think "killing" is NOT "murder", but in my mind it is. There are a myriad of kinds of "killing" that are not "murder". "Justifiable homicide" is more than a technical legal term. It is the reality. Lehi
Fig-bearing Thistle Posted July 24, 2011 Posted July 24, 2011 (edited) I get very uncomfortable when anyone appears to speak definitively about what God would do or how he might judge us. What we know is that the taking of an innocent life is a most serious affront to God as well as to our brothers and sisters upon this earth. The mercy of God knows no bounds and we only understand a small part of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. It is one of my constant prayers that God will be as merciful with others as he will be with me. Exaltation is open to all those who have repented of their sins and who have a pure heart. In stating that I know that all will receive or at least have the opportunity to receive the needed ordinances.I can see your point, but on the other hand, there are things that we are told in scripture that are consequential realities such as "you do this, and you can't obtain that". For example the oath and covenant of the Priesthood:Doctrine and Covenants 84:4141 But whoso breaketh this covenant after he hath received it, and altogether turneth therefrom, shall not have forgiveness of sins in this world nor in the world to come. Edited July 24, 2011 by Fig-bearing Thistle
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