Satan And Science

[DH]

It does not say love the plants or love the animals as thyself. So first is God and second is Man. I think this is very clear. You can also be a conservationist if it does not interfere with these two commandments. I have been arguing this priority for days now. The posts that come along that show how we should treat the world are below these great commandments. If we can love our neighbor and help the plants and animals fine. But if the question is can we help our neighbor OR help the plants and animals then we sacrifice the plants and animals.

Yeah, Franktalk, you can make up all these far-fetched scenarios where one is theoretically forced to choose between saving your family and killing the last remaining food animal on earth, if that amuses you, but in reality most of us are not actually in in that kind of situation. Thankfully, we have enough resources that we can take care of ourselves and protect the environment. Unfortunately, it seems that many people and nations just don't have the will to do it.

When the Lord said in D&C 104:17 that "the earth is full, and there is enough and to spare," He did not mean it's ok to be wasteful and exploit the earth for all it's worth. What He meant (and this becomes clear if you read the surrounding verses 11-18) is that there is enough to go around as long as people don't get greedy and keep it all to themselves.

Let's not give up too easily, ok?!

Edited June 8, 2011 by DH

[Franktalk]

I am sure my statements appear over the top to most people. We live in a country where we have the luxury to contemplate these finer aspects of life. But in the past twenty years we have had millions of Christians butchered. We have had thousands of churches burned down to the ground and the people tortured to death. So this world that many of you speak of is an island in a very cruel world. Those islands that so protect you are going away soon. Those who think that the world is going to be better are fools. Just read the prophecies and try and understand what is actually happening in the world.

Matthew 24:24

King James Version (KJV)

24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Every day we are one day closer to this period. Do you actually think in these days you will be concerned about whales and dolphins?

[DH]

I am sure my statements appear over the top to most people. We live in a country where we have the luxury to contemplate these finer aspects of life. But in the past twenty years we have had millions of Christians butchered. We have had thousands of churches burned down to the ground and the people tortured to death. So this world that many of you speak of is an island in a very cruel world. Those islands that so protect you are going away soon. Those who think that the world is going to be better are fools. Just read the prophecies and try and understand what is actually happening in the world.

Matthew 24:24

King James Version (KJV)

24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Every day we are one day closer to this period. Do you actually think in these days you will be concerned about whales and dolphins?

I am going to opine that the same people who show kindness and mercy to animals now are the same people who will show kindness and mercy to human beings when times get tough. Greed is greed, and the same people who would exploit other human beings are the same ones who show no compunction about exploiting other animals. It's not just a "finer aspect of life" that I'm talking about. I'm talking about a general attitude of kindness, mercy, and generosity. These are godlike qualities that it behooves us to foster in ourselves.

You're making it sound as though caring about whales somehow contributes to millions of Christians being slaughtered. I say BALONEY!! If you work at an animal shelter, there's nothing stopping you from also giving to the United Way. It is entirely possible to be kind to humans and animals alike.

If the time comes when I need to kill a deer to feed my family, then fine, I'll do it (I like venison, actually). But that doesn't mean we should totally ignore the environment, and it certainly doesn't mean we should kill every deer in the world. In fact, if only for our own survival, that would be just plain stupid.

If you're interested in a good read, I recommend The Riverkeepers, by John Cronin and Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. They make a good case, from a pragmatic point of view, for taking care of the environment, and that people like hunters and fishermen are often the best conservationists. They know full well that if you kill off all the animals, they won't be able to make a living! It is not only the will of God that we exercise wise stewardship over the earth, but it is in our own best interest.

Times may get tough (hell, they already are for many people, and this has been the case throughout human history), but rather than hyperventilating about it, I suggest recalling President Hinckley's words: "It isn’t as bad as you sometimes think it is. It all works out. Don’t worry. I say that to myself every morning. It will all work out. If you do your best, it will all work out. Put your trust in God, and move forward with faith and confidence in the future. The Lord will not forsake us. He will not forsake us."

In my opinion, if we give up on hope for the future, then we will have no motivation to try to make the world a better place.

Edited June 9, 2011 by DH

[cinepro]

I am sure my statements appear over the top to most people. We live in a country where we have the luxury to contemplate these finer aspects of life. But in the past twenty years we have had millions of Christians butchered. We have had thousands of churches burned down to the ground and the people tortured to death. So this world that many of you speak of is an island in a very cruel world. Those islands that so protect you are going away soon. Those who think that the world is going to be better are fools. Just read the prophecies and try and understand what is actually happening in the world.

Just so I'm clear, would you say that, generally speaking, the modern world is more respectful to human life compared to times past, or less?

Because from what I understand of past civilizations (including religious and Christian ones), we're doing pretty good when it comes to not killing other people.

[Franktalk]

Just so I'm clear, would you say that, generally speaking, the modern world is more respectful to human life compared to times past, or less?

Because from what I understand of past civilizations (including religious and Christian ones), we're doing pretty good when it comes to not killing other people.

This is hard to answer because we are not talking apples and apples. The population of the world has grown to the point where we do have a significant impact on the world so on one hand to conserve is pretty much a requirement. And we have been farming or maintaining stocks of animals for a long time. But on the other hand our ability to wipe out species or kill millions of people has become easier with technology. Other technology has allowed our population to expand to this point. With out modern technology we would have hit the limit long ago.

If God allows the world to go on until the oil runs out then we will have massive starvation. We are already seeing the signs of peak oil and peak food production. The next twenty years will be interesting.

But out side of technology man has not changed. There are good people and there are bad people. There are people who conserve and there are those who are wasteful. This has not changed and will not change. The balance between good and evil I am sure is maintained by God. The environment we are to live in must be the one in which we learn the lessons we have been sent to learn.

I would say that today we have small pockets where laws protect people from destructive governments but times they are a changing. If look at the world today and count the people in oppressed countries verses non-oppressed I think we are still losing the battle for human rights. At least from a Biblical perspective about loving your neighbor.

I will restate why I have posted these ideas about morals of man. I do so to point out that many don't really have personal morals that come from within. I would say that most people in the world still rely on social moral constructs. From a Biblical viewpoint this is a big problem. If we held to the two greatest commandments we would not need other laws and this place would be real easy to live in. When man turns from God and says He does not exist or turns from His commandments like loving your neighbor as thyself then man enters into moral relativism. My posts were designed to expose this fact. Yes they were the extreme but that is how we see the limits that we have. This is how we expose the underbelly of our moral structure. I am not saying that the people on this site are bad people I just want to examine how we all have to be real careful not to fall into the trap of social morals. We also fall into the trap of man's ideas about the creation. I am not saying I have it all figured out but I am more careful than most about holding to absolute morals and absolute truth. This does not mean I don't fall. We all do. I have been talking about these issues for years and the responses I get are always the same. Mostly denial. No one including myself wants anyone to tell them what to do or how their thinking is not right. But if we read the Bible with care we find out that God wants us to think and behave a certain way and not to go off and do our own thing. I am not delusional to think that I can change the heart of man. But I do think that I can at least open a dialog about moral structures and hopefully cause some to do some introspection. But as you can see from the responses I get people are real touchy about some subjects. I get really over the top responses like this one. From DH.

"You're making it sound as though caring about whales somehow contributes to millions of Christians being slaughtered. I say BALONEY!! If you work at an animal shelter, there's nothing stopping you from also giving to the United Way. It is entirely possible to be kind to humans and animals alike."

What should be obvious is that if we hold to God's top commandments then conservation comes naturally. Planning for the greater good becomes normal. Sharing and compassion is the norm. If we all held to God's great commandments the world would be a fine place. But not all men live by God's commandments. There is evil in the world. There is greed in the world. So we have laws and we have nations that war against nations. And soon to be another world wide war. But in that mix we are still to hold to God's commandments. That is our path. It is not easy and many fall way short, I know I am not perfect at all. But we must set our sights on the goal. My posts are to expose what that goal is and how we are no way close to it.

[LeSellers]

Times may get tough (****, they already are for many people, ...

Must you profane?

Lehi

[Hestia]

Let's not use profanity to get our point across. And yes I know it's in the Bible, but context matters.

[Jeff K.]

I am going to opine that the same people who show kindness and mercy to animals now are the same people who will show kindness and mercy to human beings when times get tough. Greed is greed, and the same people who would exploit other human beings are the same ones who show no compunction about exploiting other animals. It's not just a "finer aspect of life" that I'm talking about. I'm talking about a general attitude of kindness, mercy, and generosity. These are godlike qualities that it behooves us to foster in ourselves.

I can name quite the number of genocidal crazies who loved animals and didn't flinch when it came to horrible acts upon humanity.

Greed is greed. A fine statement until one explores it. When is self interest different from greed? And what is the difference between exploiting other people and using them to make things like the fine shoes you wear?

When you take a job, how do you know you aren't taking that job that someone else needs more? Especially with high unemployment? If you take it, you show both greed, and exploitation. Or are you being benign in accepting a job no one else wants? We are all on the internet while people starve or go without, should we redistribute that income somehow and thus deny ourselves the exploitation of others, and greed for our own selfish desires?

In essence your statements are first fallacious (equating kindness to animals to believe the same shall be shown to people, and somewhat limited.

Instead let us say "As long as I am not affected, I think other people should give more.

[Nathair/|\]

I am sure my statements appear over the top to most people. We live in a country where we have the luxury to contemplate these finer aspects of life. But in the past twenty years we have had millions of Christians butchered. We have had thousands of churches burned down to the ground and the people tortured to death. So this world that many of you speak of is an island in a very cruel world. Those islands that so protect you are going away soon. Those who think that the world is going to be better are fools. Just read the prophecies and try and understand what is actually happening in the world.

Matthew 24:24

King James Version (KJV)

24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Every day we are one day closer to this period. Do you actually think in these days you will be concerned about whales and dolphins?

If we want to live in Zion and be safe and secure during those times, we had better be "concerned about whales and dolphins" and even spiders and snakes.

[DH]

I can name quite the number of genocidal crazies who loved animals and didn't flinch when it came to horrible acts upon humanity....

In essence your statements are first fallacious (equating kindness to animals to believe the same shall be shown to people, and somewhat limited.

Ok, maybe my language was too broad. I do not mean to equate kindness to animals with kindness to humans. However, I do maintain that the two are certainly not mutually exclusive. Some of the kindest people I know are loving both towards animals and towards humans, but you're right that not everybody is necessarily the same.

Greed is greed. A fine statement until one explores it. When is self interest different from greed?

Greed and self-interest are not synonymous. In fact, I think that there are times when greed is actually contrary to one's true self-interest, though we may not realize it at the time. We are social beings, and need each other for a fulfilling life. Greed can cause resentment and conflict among people, and thus disrupt our relationships. If I get too greedy, I might be unwittingly causing myself problems further down the line.

Instead let us say "As long as I am not affected, I think other people should give more.

You're making a lot of assumptions there. How do you know I didn't just donate $20,000.00 to Medicins Sans Frontieres?

[thesometimesaint]

http://www.americanrhetoric.com/MovieSpeeches/moviespeechwallstreet.html

[DH]

http://www.americanrhetoric.com/MovieSpeeches/moviespeechwallstreet.html

Indeed.

Contrast that with what the Scriptures teach.

[thesometimesaint]

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/5651564/30_bible_verses_about_greed.html

[Jeff K.]

Jeff K., on 09 June 2011 - 08:44 AM, said:

I can name quite the number of genocidal crazies who loved animals and didn't flinch when it came to horrible acts upon humanity....

In essence your statements are first fallacious (equating kindness to animals to believe the same shall be shown to people, and somewhat limited.

Ok, maybe my language was too broad. I do not mean to equate kindness to animals with kindness to humans. However, I do maintain that the two are certainly not mutually exclusive. Some of the kindest people I know are loving both towards animals and towards humans, but you're right that not everybody is necessarily the same.

Very few things are mutually exclusive. It is like saying "there is weather in the atmosphere".

Quote

Greed is greed. A fine statement until one explores it. When is self interest different from greed?

Greed and self-interest are not synonymous. In fact, I think that there are times when greed is actually contrary to one's true self-interest, though we may not realize it at the time. We are social beings, and need each other for a fulfilling life. Greed can cause resentment and conflict among people, and thus disrupt our relationships. If I get too greedy, I might be unwittingly causing myself problems further down the line.

And yet you cannot seem to articulate the difference between greed and self interest. You simply have stated that they are not synonymous. So how do you tell the difference. If we need each other as social beings, then we compete with other social beings for that need, oh those greedy social beings who actively make friends, often at the cost of time and friendship that others could use.

Love, greed, self sacrifice, they can all at times go against self interest, but that doesn't really reflect the difference now does it?

I would suggest that if you cannot articulate the difference between greed and self interest, you would also be in very poor shape of understanding the difference when confronted with it, both in your own life and the lives of others.

If you buy a new car instead of a used one, you are greedy, after all the additional money could have been given to charities.

But wait.... what about putting it aside for your retirement? No, that is greedy, don't the scriptures speak of the "lillies of the field....."?

Ok, then buy a new car..., no, that is greedy too, after all, you deny another person with less income a car they might need, you are greedy.

So you see, the rhetoric applied to others when one uses the word "greed" is little more than an overwrought tool by is more often a reflection of envy (something not often studied because it requires self evaluation, where as greed is little more than the easy judgement of others), than it is greed.

Is "greed good"? Well I wouldn't want a liberal movie maker, with lots of money trying to tell me it is or is not good by pointing to one rich segment but overlooking his own proclivity.

So what is greed? When you love money more than anything else. Or perhaps love to tell people what to do with their money more than anything else? But no, that is envy.

If you buy an expensive home for your family... are you greedy? What is an acceptable home then? Or do we engage again in envy? Self evaluation versus judgement of others, rhetorical tools, greed vs envy, its all a bit of a muddle. But still, its not hard to hear the envy, some people are even greedy for the opportunity to judge.

[Jeff K.]

Quote

Instead let us say "As long as I am not affected, I think other people should give more.

You're making a lot of assumptions there. How do you know I didn't just donate $20,000.00 to Medicins Sans Frontieres?

That is not very much if you can still afford time on the internet with a nice computer.

Think about it.

[DH]

That is not very much if you can still afford time on the internet with a nice computer.

Think about it.

Really? I think you need a reality check if you think a $20,000.00 donation to a charity is "not very much." Seriously, are you a billionaire or something, that $20,000.00 is pocket change to you?

[DH]

Anyhoo...

I think we may have wandered a bit off-topic here.

I do not think Satan is any more involved with science than with anything else, nor do I believe there is a widespread conspiracy among scientists to convince people not to believe in God.

[Jeff K.]

That is not very much if you can still afford time on the internet with a nice computer.

Think about it.

Really? I think you need a reality check if you think a $20,000.00 donation to a charity is "not very much." Seriously, are you a billionaire or something, that $20,000.00 is pocket change to you?

Apparently there is more than a little self interest involved in the limit of your donations... I would suggest your apply "widow's mite" and once again...

think about it.

[Jeff K.]

Anyhoo...

I think we may have wandered a bit off-topic here.

I do not think Satan is any more involved with science than with anything else, nor do I believe there is a widespread conspiracy among scientists to convince people not to believe in God.

In that I agree. I see science as a tool. Satan no more possesses science, than he possesses a hammer, or a gun. It all comes down to the use by the individual, who may indeed be influenced by Satan.

Edited June 9, 2011 by Jeff K.

[DH]

In that I agree. I see science as a tool. Satan no more possesses science, than he possesses a hammer, or a gun. It all comes down to the use by the individual, who may indeed be influenced by Satan.

Similar subject came up at work today, with my coworker (he likes to get into these little philosophical discussions sometimes). He was asking me if power is good or evil. I said "neutral, it can be used for either good or bad." I suppose that if a person gets a lot of power, temptations arise and one can be corrupted. However, power itself is not necessarily bad, and is in fact necessary to become like God. Same can be said of knowledge and science, as well as money. It all depends on what you do with it.

Of course, having said all that, with blessings come responsibilities. IMHO, the strong have a responsibility to the weak. People with knowledge have a responsibility to the less educated. Etc. It all boils down to the concept in the D&C about using our talents for the common good, metaphoricall putting them in the "community chest" (or, in our case, the bishop's storehouse! lol).

Edited June 9, 2011 by DH

[Franktalk]

In that I agree. I see science as a tool. Satan no more possesses science, than he possesses a hammer, or a gun. It all comes down to the use by the individual, who may indeed be influenced by Satan.

Satan influences everything he can. He uses fear and desire which has worked since the beginning in the garden. In the conversation with Eve Satan said that Eve would not die if she took the fruit. This was working on her fear. By taking the fear of God go away from Eve she was free to disobey. Next he worked on her desire by saying that if she took the fruit she would be like God. What is interesting is that Satan was right. Eve would not die if you just looked at her spirit. And Eve would be more like God if she knew good and evil. But being weak in the flesh we hear and see what we wish to hear and see. Science is a construct of man and as such suffers all of the weaknesses of man. What ever is wrong in man is also wrong in science. Some think that somehow science is immune to the effects of desire and fear but Satan uses what he can.

I am sure that many I write to don't really believe there is a Satan. Many don't believe anything that they have not experienced directly. What they don't realize is Satan is not direct like he once was in the garden. His work is more efficient when we think we are directing our actions. One day he will become direct again but it will be for a time times and half a time.

Edited June 10, 2011 by Franktalk

[thesometimesaint]

FranktalK:

I know of no one that actually does science that thinks science is perfect or infallible. What it is is self correcting if use as directed. The LDS are most fortunate in that we have as an Article of Faith that: We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

Edited June 10, 2011 by thesometimesaint

[Jeff K.]

Satan influences everything he can. He uses fear and desire which has worked since the beginning in the garden. In the conversation with Eve Satan said that Eve would not die if she took the fruit. This was working on her fear. By taking the fear of God go away from Eve she was free to disobey. Next he worked on her desire by saying that if she took the fruit she would be like God. What is interesting is that Satan was right. Eve would not die if you just looked at her spirit. And Eve would be more like God if she knew good and evil. But being weak in the flesh we hear and see what we wish to hear and see. Science is a construct of man and as such suffers all of the weaknesses of man. What ever is wrong in man is also wrong in science. Some think that somehow science is immune to the effects of desire and fear but Satan uses what he can.

I am sure that many I write to don't really believe there is a Satan. Many don't believe anything that they have not experienced directly. What they don't realize is Satan is not direct like he once was in the garden. His work is more efficient when we think we are directing our actions. One day he will become direct again but it will be for a time times and half a time.

I would say that Satan influences "everyone" he can. You will note that the things you point out, "fear" and "desire" have no influence on a hammer. But they do have influence on those using the hammer. Science does not have a personality, it does not have a soul, science does not have free agency, it cannot be influenced by Satan. Mankind though, it has these things, making them subject to the temptations of Satan to do evil.

And yes, Satan is the master of half truths, he is very successful in leading people away, and helping them innovate tools for his purposes.

[Franktalk]

I would say that Satan influences "everyone" he can. You will note that the things you point out, "fear" and "desire" have no influence on a hammer. But they do have influence on those using the hammer. Science does not have a personality, it does not have a soul, science does not have free agency, it cannot be influenced by Satan. Mankind though, it has these things, making them subject to the temptations of Satan to do evil.

And yes, Satan is the master of half truths, he is very successful in leading people away, and helping them innovate tools for his purposes.

What is interesting is that science runs a wide spectrum of subjects and the attachment to direct data. Take for instance the relationship with the force of gravity and distance from the center of the earth. Here people can and do rely on the conclusions of science to predict rocket launches and satellite orbits. Any error in the math or published relationship would surface right away. But in many areas where we can't duplicate the conditions the theories become more of a guess and loose any tight association to trace evidence. In these areas we run into a wide range of acceptance of the scientific conclusions. Where someone like myself says I can't accept the theory as defined others have no problem with declaring the theory proven and fact. Such is the area where the devil can do his work. Anything subjective in the least becomes a wedge issue on faith. It is hard for someone to believe that God created the universe in six days and also believe that man came from apes 10 million years ago. Yet I have heard so many people say they believe in the God of the Bible yet also believe that evolution made all life and we came from dust billions of years ago. My brain won't allow me to make such stupid remarks. One really has to believe in one or the other. Or in some cases some say that God made nature and nature made man through a line of apes 10 million years ago and the Book of Genesis is completely wrong and is just allegorical. Then once they allegorize Genesis they proceed to do the same with book after book. For me I find it very hard to believe that God confused 16.5 billion years with six days, but I find it very easy to believe that man has confused 16.5 billion years with six days. Once I accept the inability of man to figure things out that deal with the distant past then I proceed to learn scripture in a more literal sense. This has worked for me so far and I see no reason to change. If I am wrong then I will find out some day from someone who actually was there. But until then this whole subject becomes a stumbling block.

There is so much to know it should be easy to sidestep these areas and just declare we don't know. But mankind does not like a knowledge vacuum. Something always comes along to fill the void.

[shalamabobbi]

Something always comes along to fill the void.

Quite. In this instance, a literal interpretation of Genesis.

Eve is not taken from Adam's head to rule over him, nor from his foot to be abused and ruled over by him, but from his side, to be his companion and equal..

But this is all meaningless allegory, the real meaning is that there is no meaning at all. Isn't God wonderful in that He can create Eve literally from a rib?

It is hard for someone to believe that God created the universe in six days and also believe that man came from apes 10 million years ago.

You could have stopped with "It is hard for someone to believe that God created the universe in six days".

If you want to be a last Thursdayist your welcome to it. You could have saved a lot of time by stating that up front.