Blood Attonement

[thesometimesaint]

elguanteloko:

As far as the SIN of Mass Murder God can, but as he has established ground rules for any repentance to be effective. It would be incredibly hard for a Mass Murderer to accomplish.

As to the CRIME of Mass Murder I don't have a problem with someone paying the price for that.

[Grundelwalken]

jskains:

If that were the extent of bad behaviors there would be much less need for the Atonement. Further I could empty all the jails and prisons today if that were the case. Jesus paid the price for all sin, with but one exception, and child rape, as terrible as that is, isn't it.

From St. Augustine. His letter 211 (c. 424) contains the phrase Cum dilectione hominum et odio vitiorum, which translates roughly as "With love for mankind and hatred of sins."

D&C 64:9-- I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men.

Sounds clear to me, no matter the circumstances. MW

[Grundelwalken]

jskains:

If that were the extent of bad behaviors there would be much less need for the Atonement. Further I could empty all the jails and prisons today if that were the case. Jesus paid the price for all sin, with but one exception, and child rape, as terrible as that is, isn't it.

From St. Augustine. His letter 211 (c. 424) contains the phrase Cum dilectione hominum et odio vitiorum, which translates roughly as "With love for mankind and hatred of sins."

D&C 64:9-10 -- Wherefore, I say unto you, that ye ought to forgive one another; for he that forgiveth not his brother his trespasses standeth condemned before the Lord; for there remaineth in him the greater sin. I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men. (my bold)

Sounds clear to me, no matter the circumstances. MW

[MelvinCJohnson]

MelvinCJohnson: Even David had to pay a price of his sin. True God will not let him remain forever in Hell, but his Resurrection won't be to the Celestial Kingdom.

All human kind pays a price for sin, thesometimesaint, I agree. But that mortal man would attempt to constrain God's ability to forgive does not make sense. God will forgive whom He will.

[elguanteloko]

elguanteloko:

As far as the SIN of Mass Murder God can, but as he has established ground rules for any repentance to be effective. It would be incredibly hard for a Mass Murderer to accomplish.

But it can be done, then, and Christ's sacrifice does cover child rapists, mass murderers, torturers, tyrants, etc, correct?

As to the CRIME of Mass Murder I don't have a problem with someone paying the price for that.

You don't have a problem with it? Supposedly the guilty has to pay for the price, not someone else. If X murders a child for fun, would you agree for X's brother to spent lifetime in jail while X remains outside even when X's brother volunteered for it?

[cinepro]

Why couldn't Christ's atonement make a mass murderer completely clean if he repented?

Since "restitution" is one of the steps for repentance, I think the question is whether or not a murderer can truly repent in this life?

I think the logic of Brigham Young's Blood Atonement is that you can't make up for another person's lost life, but you can sacrifice your own so at least you're even.

[elguanteloko]

D&C 64:9-10 -- Wherefore, I say unto you, that ye ought to forgive one another; for he that forgiveth not his brother his trespasses standeth condemned before the Lord; for there remaineth in him the greater sin. I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men. (my bold)

Sounds clear to me, no matter the circumstances. MW

So, if my sister gets raped and killed by X and I hate that guy for what he did, am I worst than if I had raped and killed someone's sister? Seriously? Would you agree in excommunicating me for hating X? Would you agree in putting me in jail for life or giving me the lethal injection for hating X?

[elguanteloko]

Repeat.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Since "restitution" is one of the steps for repentance, I think the question is whether or not a murderer can truly repent in this life?

I think the logic of Brigham Young's Blood Atonement is that you can't make up for another person's lost life, but you can sacrifice your own so at least you're even.

OR you can do your best to make sure others don't travel down the same path as you by using your experience to educate them. And you could do your best to help any family left behind by the deceased individual. To me that makes more sense then dying so that "your even."

Edit: So if you prevent the death of another or many others, you may not give that person back his life, but you may be the cause for someone else or many others not dying. That would be restitution, to me.

[elguanteloko]

Since "restitution" is one of the steps for repentance, I think the question is whether or not a murderer can truly repent in this life?

I think the logic of Brigham Young's Blood Atonement is that you can't make up for another person's lost life, but you can sacrifice your own so at least you're even.

So, what is restitution exactly, cinepro? If I asked my neighbor for a screwdriver but I never gave it to him and he later dies, since I can't give the screwdriver back to him in this life, am I ispo facto unforgivable? And if this simple sin doesn't prevent me getting to the Celestial Kingdom because Christ's sacrifice can make me completely clean even when I can't repay sins in this life, of what use is Blood Atonement?

[cinepro]

So, what is restitution exactly, cinepro? If I asked my neighbor for a screwdriver but I never gave it to him and he later dies, since I can't give the screwdriver back to him in this life, am I ispo facto unforgivable? And if this simple sin doesn't prevent me getting to the Celestial Kingdom because Christ's sacrifice can make me completely clean even when I can't repay sins in this life, of what use is Blood Atonement?

It's possible Brigham Young was going off an assumption that murder was a worse sin than stealing a screwdriver.

[elguanteloko]

It's possible Brigham Young was going off an assumption that murder was a worse sin than stealing a screwdriver.

That murder is worst than stealing a screwdriver is irrelevant to the point you were trying to make and my criticism of it. I'm not saying they are equally wrong. I'm saying that restitution in this life isn't a part of forgiveness since you can have sins forgiven (through Christ's blood) AFTER this life. Furthermore, if you never repented of half the sins in your life but you repent afterwards, then you can be forgiven but my point is that restitution isn't a factor nor can it be in this life or the next. Either Christ's sacrifice was a sacrifice for all sins or it wasn't (independently of whether you accept his sacrifice or not). If it was then it was a sacrifice for murderers and rapists too and they can be cleaned COMPLETELY from them. If they can't be clean from them then there are sins for which Christ didn't die for.

[Questing Beast]

I was talking to a fellow worker, and he told of a man who raped his own daughters nightly whenever he felt the urge. He invited friends over to also have their way with his 8 year old daughter.

IMHO people like this should have a bullet help empty out their skull of what little brains they have. A comedian once quipped that if you personally even had thoughts of sexually molesting a child, you should do the world a favor and eat a bullet for the team.

How is my position any different than Brigham's Blood Attonement concept? I don't see this as a problem. I do believe there are crimes for which are so horrible and ugly that only your blood hitting dirt could even give you a chance of redemption.

Thoughts?

First of all, B. Young never implemented his ethic of so-called "blood atonement". Whether or not he would have liked to make it a doctrine and practice for the whole church is also a problematic subject.

Anyway, I agree that a person this heinous and lacking in love is so ill as to be devoid of any reasonable chance for a so-called second chance. Society surely does not need to protect the predator, aside from the injustice of "mob justice". Civilized people will take such a person, try him, and put him away for life or execute him (depending on the ethic that society holds vis-a-vis capital punishment).

My opinion is that such a person when apprehended and found absolutely guilty, ought to be quickly removed permanently from the earth, so that his victims need never fear that he might escape in the future. We are far too soft on criminals and dismissive of the mental and emotional rights of victims....

[Yirgacheffe]

Since "restitution" is one of the steps for repentance, I think the question is whether or not a murderer can truly repent in this life?

I think the logic of Brigham Young's Blood Atonement is that you can't make up for another person's lost life, but you can sacrifice your own so at least you're even.

How can a rapist make restitution for lost virginity, how can a thief make restitution for the fear his victims live with, how can a slanderer make restitution for the mistrust he injected into his victims relationships? It seems to me Christ's atonement is precisely because we can not restore what we damage through sin.

[Jigglysaint]

How can a rapist make restitution for lost virginity, how can a thief make restitution for the fear his victims live with, how can a slanderer make restitution for the mistrust he injected into his victims relationships? It seems to me Christ's atonement is precisely because we can not restore what we damage through sin.

More importantly, the victims also need the Atonement because they experienced a loss which can never be recovered. Each victim will no doubt have issues to resolve, and shattered trust that needs to be fixed. Imagine a rape victim being able to find a proper mate, get married and have a family when all that goes on in their head is that "he just wants his way with me". Imagine a robbery victim who not only had valuables taken, but mementos smashed and that feeling that you were violated in the one place you should always feel safe. Imagine somebody who lost their standing in life because they trusted a friend who betrayed them. They could potentially become the seed for even more hate and mistrust as they could seek revenge.

I guess it's no wonder that many of the words that the General Authorities have regarding forgiveness relates more to those who were wronged, than the wrongdoers. Perhaps a rapist actually has it pretty lucky that he only has to deal with the sin of forced sexual intercourse, while their victim has to deal with so much more.

[Palerider]

How can a rapist make restitution for lost virginity, how can a thief make restitution for the fear his victims live with, how can a slanderer make restitution for the mistrust he injected into his victims relationships? It seems to me Christ's atonement is precisely because we can not restore what we damage through sin.

Excellent observation Yirgacheffe! I was really hoping someone here would make that clarification. Restitution as taught by the LDS faith seems to be more on a "Law of Moses" level. Although it would only be expected that a truly repentant person would feel the desire to restore what they could, it is indeed impossible to restore all that is neccesary. Only Christ's atonement can and will do that.

[Yirgacheffe]

More importantly, the victims also need the Atonement because they experienced a loss which can never be recovered. Each victim will no doubt have issues to resolve, and shattered trust that needs to be fixed. Imagine a rape victim being able to find a proper mate, get married and have a family when all that goes on in their head is that "he just wants his way with me". Imagine a robbery victim who not only had valuables taken, but mementos smashed and that feeling that you were violated in the one place you should always feel safe. Imagine somebody who lost their standing in life because they trusted a friend who betrayed them. They could potentially become the seed for even more hate and mistrust as they could seek revenge.

I guess it's no wonder that many of the words that the General Authorities have regarding forgiveness relates more to those who were wronged, than the wrongdoers. Perhaps a rapist actually has it pretty lucky that he only has to deal with the sin of forced sexual intercourse, while their victim has to deal with so much more.

The rapist does not only have to deal with forced sexual intercourse but all of the damage done to his victim, it is the same with the thief, liar, adulterer and so on. The perpetrator can never make restitution to his victim, all he can do is repent. A perpetrator can repent and be healed without the forgiveness of his victim just as a a victim can forgive an unrepentant aggressor and be healed. Repentance and forgiveness can each stand on it's own and both are gifts.

[kantgomo]

I was talking to a fellow worker, and he told of a man who raped his own daughters nightly whenever he felt the urge. He invited friends over to also have their way with his 8 year old daughter.

IMHO people like this should have a bullet help empty out their skull of what little brains they have. A comedian once quipped that if you personally even had thoughts of sexually molesting a child, you should do the world a favor and eat a bullet for the team.

How is my position any different than Brigham's Blood Attonement concept? I don't see this as a problem. I do believe there are crimes for which are so horrible and ugly that only your blood hitting dirt could even give you a chance of redemption.

Thoughts?

His blood hitting the ground does not redeem him, it only kills the man thus stopping his behavior.

[Alla]

It is clear in scripture that the only unforgivable sin is to deny the Holy Ghost. ALL other sins can be forgiven if repentance takes place. I will never tell a lost soul, "Well, Jesus can't forgive you. You were just too wicked in your past."

I agree with you that Heavenly Father and His Son Jesus Christ forgive those who repent because that are Mercy. But Mercy will never rob Justice. God is not only Mercy, He is also Justice. He will forgive but he will also judge according to our works.

[Alla]

I agree with you that Heavenly Father and His Son Jesus Christ forgive those who repent because They are Mercy. But Mercy will never rob Justice. God is not only Mercy, He is also Justice. He will forgive but he will also judge according to our works.

[Mordecai]

The repentant incestuous father is better off then the unrepentant gossip-monger.

I doubt that's true. A gossip-monger, while unrepentant, can eventually repent and go to the Celestial Kingdom. The chances of an incestuous father going to the Celestial Kingdom are slim to none, I would think. Someone that fails that miserably at the most sacred task entrusted to them in this life can't possibly be someone Jesus would not be ashamed to bring into the highest degree of glory. I would say that such behavior is significantly less forgivable than revealing the temple ceremony to the world and mocking it openly, after having made covenants in the temple.

Such a person would have to be beyond feeling and unable to feel the light of Christ. If they can't feel the light of Christ, how can they feel the Holy Ghost much less live life valiantly enough to warrant Celestial Glory?

[TAO]

I doubt that's true. A gossip-monger, while unrepentant, can eventually repent and go to the Celestial Kingdom. The chances of an incestuous father going to the Celestial Kingdom are slim to none, I would think. Someone that fails that miserably at the most sacred task entrusted to them in this life can't possibly be someone Jesus would not be ashamed to bring into the highest degree of glory. I would say that such behavior is significantly less forgivable than revealing the temple ceremony to the world and mocking it openly, after having made covenants in the temple.

Such a person would have to be beyond feeling and unable to feel the light of Christ. If they can't feel the light of Christ, how can they feel the Holy Ghost much less live life valiantly enough to warrant Celestial Glory?

Mordecai, repentant is the key. And yes, bomlover is right. The repentant person will be accepted, if he or she humbles himself unto submission unto the Father and the Son. The spirit will be born in that person. Doesn't the D&C say there will be more joy in heaven for one repenting soul than for hundreds of souls that needed no repentance? I'm not sure I can speak on behalf of God... but I think he will say to that repentant person... well done, thou faithful servant... or something along those lines. I think he will be happy for them... deliriously happy and full of joy for that precious soul.

Best Wishes,

TAO

[cinepro]

I'm saying that restitution in this life isn't a part of forgiveness since you can have sins forgiven (through Christ's blood) AFTER this life. Furthermore, if you never repented of half the sins in your life but you repent afterwards, then you can be forgiven but my point is that restitution isn't a factor nor can it be in this life or the next.

Just to be clear, I'm not a proponent of the doctrine of "Blood Atonement", but some of the ideas raised in this thread seem intent on missing the point.

Restitution is an important part of the repentance process, and repentance is an important part of the forgiveness process. This in spite of the difficulty of "restituting" for many sins, and the possibility of finding forgiveness after this life. Just go to LDS.org and search for "restitution" and you'll find plenty of discourse on its importance, such as this:

Restitution is a necessary part of repentance.

When a person has experienced the deep sorrow and humility induced by a conviction of sin; when he has cast off the sin and resolutely determined to abhor it henceforth; when he has humbly confessed his sin to God and to the proper persons on earth—when these things are done there remains the requirement of restitution. He must restore that which he damaged, stole, or wronged.

The repentant sinner is required to make restitution insofar as it is possible. I say “insofar as it is possible” because there are some sins for which no adequate restitution can be made, and others for which only partial restitution is possible.

A thief or burglar may make partial restitution by returning that which was stolen. A liar may make the truth known and correct to some degree the damage done by the lie. A gossip who has slandered the character of another may make partial restitution through strenuous effort to restore the good name of the person he harmed. If by sin or carelessness the wrongdoer has destroyed property, he may restore or pay for it in full or in part.

If a man’s actions have brought sorrow and disgrace to his wife and children, in his restitution he must make every effort to restore their confidence and love by an overabundance of … devotion and fidelity. This is true also of wives and mothers. Likewise if children have wronged their parents, a part of their … repentance must be to right those wrongs and to honor their parents.

As a rule there are many things which a repentant soul can do to make amends. “A broken heart and a contrite spirit” will usually find ways to restore to some extent. The true spirit of repentance demands that he who injures shall do everything in his power to right the wrong.

In the process of repentance we must restore completely where possible, otherwise restore to the maximum degree attainable. And through it all we must remember that the pleading sinner, desiring to make restitution for his acts, must also forgive others of all offenses committed against him. The Lord will not forgive us unless our hearts are fully purged of all hate, bitterness and accusation against our fellowmen.

"Chapter 4: The Miracle of Forgiveness," Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Spencer W. Kimball, (2006)

While it may be difficult to make even a partial restitution in many cases, murder is an especially unique case in that it is totally impossible to make even the slightest restitution to the victim. The act, for this life, is final. In that light, and in spite of the many philosophical arguments to the contrary, the teachings on Blood Atonement do have a certain logic in the context of the gospel.

[Mordecai]

Mordecai, repentant is the key...

The question is, could Hitler completely repent? Can Charles Manson? I'm suggesting that repentance to the point where a person is completely absolved as if it never happened isn't always possible. King David, for example, couldn't be completely absolved of what he did. The example given at the beginning of this thread describes a sociopath, not just someone who has a minor character flaw. Granted, child molestation is not named as an unforgivable sin, while murder is named as an unforgivable sin and if it is done in cold blood and by someone who has knowledge of the seriousness of how wrong that is. That said, I think a sociopath is a murderer in their heart, even if they don't carry out murders. Is it possible that there is something I'm not seeing here, and the can be forgiven? Quite possible. Still, I have serious doubts about the sociopath described at the beginning of this thread. That doesn't sound more forgivable than murder.

[TAO]

The question is, could Hitler completely repent? Can Charles Manson? I'm suggesting that repentance to the point where a person is completely absolved as if it never happened isn't always possible. King David, for example, couldn't be completely absolved of what he did. The example given at the beginning of this thread describes a sociopath, not just someone who has a minor character flaw. Granted, child molestation is not named as an unforgivable sin, while murder is named as an unforgivable sin and if it is done in cold blood and by someone who has knowledge of the seriousness of how wrong that is. That said, I think a sociopath is a murderer in their heart, even if they don't carry out murders. Is it possible that there is something I'm not seeing here, and the can be forgiven? Quite possible. Still, I have serious doubts about the sociopath described at the beginning of this thread. That doesn't sound more forgivable than murder.

I read on the church website once (I forget where), that eventually, these people who are murderers, if repentant will be 'pardoned' to a degree, after their death.

Yes, they will have a hard time, but I am not going to be the one saying 'you can't repent' to them. That's between them and God, and I really don't think God would appreciate us talking about it when it's a private issue between them (with few exceptions).

The way I look at it - if things are truly unforgivable, then life isn't worth living, if you make such a mistake. There must be some degree of repentance there... for those who do not have a full degree of knowledge... to make repenting... and doing one's best works, worthwhile... so you will receive at least something. I hope you understand what I mean - I am hesitant to condemn people without a full knowledge of their circumstances, my friend.

Best Wishes,

TAO