Lds Temples And The Western Wall

[volgadon]

"The Jews are not allowed to approach nearer the Harem— the spot where the Temple stood— than this ancient wall; they press their lips to the large stones, and insert written prayers and petitions into the deep, open joints. With much difficulty I extracted a scrap of paper, brown with age, written in Hebrew characters. Being translated, it was found to contain nine names of a Jewish family, probably brought by some pilgrim from a distant land, and with pious object laid in the crevices of the huge blocks in this scene of their sorrow, this melancholy place of wailing."

-John Ashworth, "Walks in Canaan", 1869, p. 72.

"Above this pavement, rises fifteen feet more of this old wall, built by King Solomon, in which four courses of drafted stones are visible; many of them are very much worn, and the people in prayer thrust their hands into the interstices, and also push as far into the crevices as they can, prayers they have written to God, thinking that they will be carried from thence up to heaven. If afterwards they come and find these paper scraps gone, they think their prayers will be answered. On one occasion, I met a Frank diligently (when no Jews were by) collecting as many of these letters as he could, to send home as curiosities; such documents, I think, ought to have been looked upon as worthy of remaining in their places."

-Charles Warren, "Underground Jerusalem", 1876, pp. 367-368.

Franks are Christian Arabs.

[Robert F. Smith]

Claim: At the Western Wall, Jews recieve a new name.

Answer: This must be a ritual of such secrecy that none of the participants are even aware of receiving a new name. I've been there several times and have never recieved a new name nor do I know of anyone who has. If anyone has evidence to the contrary, please let me know.

This notion may have migrated from the fact that a convert to Judaism does receive a new name, but that doesn't take place at the Western Wall.

[Robert F. Smith]

The closest I've heard is that written prayers are left within the wall, which could possibly include names. But this more like names on the altar. I've never heard the new name ordeal.

In the typical Orthodox synagogue, there is the equivalent of a prayer roll on which names are placed of those who are sick or afflicted, and the entire congregation prays for them during sabbath services.

[Robert F. Smith]

The most interesting thing I've seen was a Tzadiq in ecstatic prayer. He was dressed in tattered robes, had a big beard and a large knitted kippah. He was rocking back and forth (davening), eyes closed, face wrinkled as he chanted a rapid stream of ecstatic speech. I don't understand spoken Hebrew well enough to understand what he was saying, but it wasn't standard Jewish prayer. There was a big crowd of people around him listening to him. I talked with some Haredim who said he was a mystical prophet who wandered around the country healing, blessing and prophesying. He was definitely an old school mystic. I saw him there on several Fridays, always with a crowd listening to his chanting.

I was told by Orthodox Jews back in the 1960s about such prophetic characters. One doesn't generally hear of such things outside the Haredi community.

[Robert F. Smith]

Here's a 360 panorama I did of the Kotel, Western Wall

My link

Astonishing, Bill. Thanks. The Herodian headers and stretchers come to life anew!!

I can recall first visiting the Kotel haMa'arvi back in 1965. A young Arab boy guided me to it down some back alleys for a couple of fils. The old city of Jerusalem was then under the jurisdiction of the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, and in those days the wall was part of a narrow alley and there was no one there to pray. As for me, I was too awestruck to pray.

[volgadon]

This notion may have migrated from the fact that a convert to Judaism does receive a new name, but that doesn't take place at the Western Wall.

Converts though don't have to receive a new name. The reasons for doing so aren't ritual, I mean, when you join a new group you want to identify with them. A name is a big part of that process.

[volgadon]

Astonishing, Bill. Thanks. The Herodian headers and stretchers come to life anew!!

I can recall first visiting the Kotel haMa'arvi back in 1965. A young Arab boy guided me to it down some back alleys for a couple of fils. The old city of Jerusalem was then under the jurisdiction of the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, and in those days the wall was part of a narrow alley and there was no one there to pray. As for me, I was too awestruck to pray.

So you got to see it when the Mughrabi neighbourhood was still there.

[volgadon]

I was told by Orthodox Jews back in the 1960s about such prophetic characters. One doesn't generally hear of such things outside the Haredi community.

Bread and butter for the people in my hometown and highschool. Mainly North African Jews. Grew up hearing all sorts of stories about mystics, prophets, witch-doctors, etc.

[Robert F. Smith]

So you got to see it when the Mughrabi neighbourhood was still there.

Yes, although I did not at the time know that it was the Mughrabi neighborhood (mughrabi being Arabic for "western" = Hebrew ma'aravi "western"). After the 1967 War that neighborhood was removed and the Jewish Quarter restored. I recall the huge crowds of Jews on the new road, streaming up around Mt. Zion to get a look at the Western Wall. The change was dramatic.

[Robert F. Smith]

Converts though don't have to receive a new name. The reasons for doing so aren't ritual, I mean, when you join a new group you want to identify with them. A name is a big part of that process.

Thanks for the correction. I was thinking about Avraham Gileadi who converted to Judaism in Israel and then attended yeshiva in the Jewish Quarter.

[Alla]

It reminded me that in Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches(the oldest ones) monks and nuns receive a new name.

[Palerider]

Claim: At the Western Wall, a robe is worn on one shoulder.

Answer: The “robe” is actually a prayer shawl called the talith. It is draped over head and shoulders, but sometimes was worn over both shoulders only. The talith is primarily used during morning prayers and is not specific to the Western Wall.

Volgadon,

Would the Savior have possibly worn a "talith" or is it something of later origin? I know the scriptures mention that he wore a woven coat (or vesture) that was without seams. No color is mentioned although it is often depicted as being red. Is it possible as well that it may have been striped rather than a solid color?

Sorry for the derail.

[Palerider]

Double-post

[mfbukowski]

Volgadon,

Would the Savior have possibly worn a "talith" or is it something of later origin? I know the scriptures mention that he wore a woven coat (or vesture) that was without seams. No color is mentioned although it is often depicted as being red. Is it possible as well that it may have been striped rather than a solid color?

Sorry for the derail.

The story of the woman being healed by touching the "hem of his garment", in which the savior feels virtue leaving him, is usually interpreted as meaning her touching the fringe on his talith, if I am not mistaken.

I have no clue as to whether or not this is the same garment as the "garment without seam" for which the soldiers cast lots, and know nothing about what the colors would have been.

[Palerider]

The story of the woman being healed by touching the "hem of his garment", in which the savior feels virtue leaving him, is usually interpreted as meaning her touching the fringe on his talith, if I am not mistaken.

I have no clue as to whether or not this is the same garment as the "garment without seam" for which the soldiers cast lots, and know nothing about what the colors would have been.

Hey Mfbukowski,

Long time.

I've never heard that interpretation before. Do you happen to have some reference on that? I'd be pleased to read it. Thanks!

[mfbukowski]

Hey Mfbukowski,

Long time.

I've never heard that interpretation before. Do you happen to have some reference on that? I'd be pleased to read it. Thanks!

Sure no problem!

Hem of garment

Hem of garment. An important part of an Israelite’s dress, owing to the regulation in Num. 15:38–39. It was really a tassel at each “wing” or corner of the tallith or mantle (Matt. 14:36). The law required that it should be bound with a thread of blue, the color of heaven. The strict Jews to this day wear these tassels, though they are usually concealed. The Pharisees made them conspicuously large (Matt. 23:5). It would be the tassel that hung over the shoulder at the back that the woman with the issue of blood came and touched (Luke 8:44; also Ex. 28:33–34).

http://lds.org/scriptures/bd/hem-of-garment?lang=eng&query=hem+garment

[volgadon]

Volgadon,

Would the Savior have possibly worn a "talith" or is it something of later origin? I know the scriptures mention that he wore a woven coat (or vesture) that was without seams. No color is mentioned although it is often depicted as being red. Is it possible as well that it may have been striped rather than a solid color?

Sorry for the derail.

He would have worn a talith, but not quite the talith worn by modern Jews. The frescoes at the Dura Europos synagogue depicted figures wrapped in mantles, and Yigael Yadin discovered the remains of such in Nahal Hever. This was ann everyday item.

The robe that the soldiers cast lots for was most probably his tunic.

[nosmelone]

I was listening to a talk by Hugh Nibley "Temples Everywhere" and he told of a few of his experiences among the Hopi that were quite interesting including the reaction of some of his friends from Hebrew University in Israel when he took them to Hotevilla and they saw a woman making a prayer shawl and she called it a sheesh (spelling?) apparently the same thing they called it in Israel. Do you know what this "sheesh" is or what it looks like. Is this closer to the talith worn over the shoulders or possibley worn more like a sash or belt?

[volgadon]

I was listening to a talk by Hugh Nibley "Temples Everywhere" and he told of a few of his experiences among the Hopi that were quite interesting including the reaction of some of his friends from Hebrew University in Israel when he took them to Hotevilla and they saw a woman making a prayer shawl and she called it a sheesh (spelling?) apparently the same thing they called it in Israel. Do you know what this "sheesh" is or what it looks like. Is this closer to the talith worn over the shoulders or possibley worn more like a sash or belt?

This is what I found in that talk.

"Hotevilla is an exciting new study and wild surmise; I refer you to the recent volume by Thomas Mails entitled Hotevilla: Hopi Shrine of the Covenant, Microcosm of the World.15 Through the years I have taken some beautiful reproductions of Egyptian papyri to show to the children and elders in Hotevilla; they have been greatly impressed by the resemblances to their own rituals. The dancers always have the headband and two feathers, stripes on the face, copper bands around the arms, an evergreen wreath around the neck, bandolier over the shoulder, and especially an apron of fox or wolf skin with the tail dangling conspicuously behind, the wand or rattle, the ornament at the knee, and buskins on the feet. And when I have taken professors from Israel to visit the Hopis, they were simply bowled over by the parallels."

[Palerider]

Sure no problem!

http://lds.org/scrip...ery=hem+garment

Thanks!