Uncorrelated Mormon

[ELF1024]

P.S., is editing posts something people can only do after they have a certain number of posts here?

I wanted to add to my previous post...we may also speak of people who do bad things and feel guilt/remorse/etc., In this case, that would explain a conscience ignored. If someone could choose their conscience, they could choose not to feel guilt whenever they wanted.

Or would that be a symptom of them changing from who they were to who they are?

[Subversive Asset 2.0]

Or would that be a symptom of them changing from who they were to who they are?

In which case, the change is not consciously chosen...which doesn't help your case.

[Libs]

Well, if that doesn't make Joseph a Prophet; I'm not sure what does make a man a Prophet.

Inspiration, even an experience of God, can be stimulated by people other than prophets. God uses all of us, I think, in that way, at times. He can even use very negative experiences to draw us to him.

[Curtis Weber]

They should be excommunicated as swiftly as possible in my opinion since it is apparent they will not leave on their own. Such are not going up or down in terms of progession so they need to get moving. A lot of them might sink immediately but I think of those, some will begin to rise as they experience the error of their ways.

From John Taylor, JD 9:14:

Suppose there are some who do not do exactly right in some places, what of that? There are many things that are not right. Never mind; everything that is wrong will in due time be righted. Permit me to bring a figure before you. A year ago last winter there was a very severe frost, and it injured the fruit trees. Some who professed to be judges thought it best to cut down the peach trees; some thought that if left alone they would still grow, and therefore they left them alone to see how many would live. There was quite a difference of opinion upon the subject, and some adopted one plan, and some another. The general impression was, I believe, that it would be best to cut off those limbs that were frost-bitten and that did not appear to have much sap in them.

Now, my doctrine is, Prune the trees, or, in other words, the branches of the great tree to which we are connected, just at the time when it will do the least injury. It requires great wisdom, however, to prune and regulate the Church of Christ. There were a great many of our people got frost-bitten—a kind of dead in their spirits, and some were for going right to work and pruning; but hold on. Said Jesus, "The wheat and tares must grow together until harvest." Perhaps you would pull up the wheat with the tares, if you were to do it when you think best. If there is nothing good in a man, he will by-and-by develop the evil that is in him, and then everybody will agree that the pruning ought to be done, and the branch ought to be cut off; but if the good preponderates, it would be wrong, because of prejudice or ignorance, to destroy the good. It is best to leave it to the husbandman, and then all the congregation will say Amen.

[Curtis Weber]

I try to be more concerned about what the Lord would be more concerned about. "It is better that one man should perish than a whole nation should dwindle in unbelief......."

Are you implying that the Lord wants them all dead? Because that is the context of that scripture.

Or do you mean it more broadly, that the Lord wants "uncorrelated Mormons" excommunicated? If the latter, I wonder why it is not the general policy of the Church to excommunicate people for unbelief.

[bookofmormontruth]

Culturally, either, the church would have to become much more progressive or I would have to become much more conservative. I don't see either of those things happening.

A lot of problems, doctrinally, as well, although, I'm probably much more compatible in that area, than above.

Subversive was right on, about living the LDS gospel, as not the problem. Living it is easy. Believing (some of it) is the hard part.

I respect that and I agree the Lord's Church will never become more "progressive" for it will be on an opposite path that the world is heading (thank goodness!). I hope you can trust in the Lord fully in your journey. You always have a family here for you.

What I don't understand, is that members at one time "believed" before they "lived" the teachings - at least we all declared this when we had our baptismal interview. So it is hard to imagine that it is "easy" living the Gospel without a belief that was at least enough to qualify for baptism.

Now, I understand that a person can lose a belief, but I completely don't understand how it is "easy" to live the teachings fully and then lose the belief. I know all ex's will disagree, but if you are living the "easy" teachings, (reading, praying, weekly Church attendance, monthly Temple attendance, Word of Wisdom, service and list can go on) then it would be impossible to lose a belief for living the teachings only increases belief and builds a strong foundation. I recognize there could be exceptions (which I won't list), but they rare indeed, yet every ex and apostate I encounter claim they are that "rare" exception to the Sunday School lesson: "What leads to apostasy and losing a testimony".

Maybe a person who lost their belief truly believes it was "easy" and they lived all teachings and principles, but I highly doubt that is the case - unless of course the Lord and His Prophets are wrong. I am sure we could find an example (sympathizing with apostates, sip of wine at a social event, shopping on Sunday - it is human nature to forget we do these things, yet want to validate to the world or ourselves that we are "living" the Gospel and that it is "easy").

Even as a believer, I do not fully live every teaching and principle (like being a meanie to anti-Mormons and ex's) yet I know I am doing the things that will continually strengthen my testimony which does make living the Gospel "easier". I know, I know - you'll are a exception to the rule and it isn't as black and white as the Lord and His Prophets teach, yet I see nothing in the Gospel that the Lord wants us to live in "grey" areas or to live on the fence.

[Subversive Asset 2.0]

I respect that and I agree the Lord's Church will never become more "progressive" for it will be on an opposite path that the world is heading (thank goodness!). I hope you can trust in the Lord fully in your journey. You always have a family here for you.

What I don't understand, is that members at one time "believed" before they "lived" the teachings - at least we all declared this when we had our baptismal interview. So it is hard to imagine that it is "easy" living the Gospel without a belief that was at least enough to qualify for baptism.

Now, I understand that a person can lose a belief, but I completely don't understand how it is "easy" to live the teachings fully and then lose the belief. I know all ex's will disagree, but if you are living the "easy" teachings, (reading, praying, weekly Church attendance, monthly Temple attendance, Word of Wisdom, service and list can go on) then it would be impossible to lose a belief for living the teachings only increases belief and builds a strong foundation. I recognize there could be exceptions (which I won't list), but they rare indeed, yet every ex and apostate I encounter claim they are that "rare" exception to the Sunday School lesson: "What leads to apostasy and losing a testimony".

Maybe a person who lost their belief truly believes it was "easy" and they lived all teachings and principles, but I highly doubt that is the case - unless of course the Lord and His Prophets are wrong. I am sure we could find an example (sympathizing with apostates, sip of wine at a social event, shopping on Sunday - it is human nature to forget we do these things, yet want to validate to the world or ourselves that we are "living" the Gospel and that it is "easy").

Even as a believer, I do not fully live every teaching and principle (like being a meanie to anti-Mormons and ex's) yet I know I am doing the things that will continually strengthen my testimony which does make living the Gospel "easier". I know, I know - you'll are a exception to the rule and it isn't as black and white as the Lord and His Prophets teach, yet I see nothing in the Gospel that the Lord wants us to live in "grey" areas or to live on the fence.

I guess you've already anticipated the reaction here (e.g., "all ex's will disagree"), but really, it isn't necessarily true that living the teachings only increases belief and builds a strong foundation. Then again, if your solution to this is to increase the amount of teachings and rules that must be followed and then say, "Obviously, they didn't live all the teachings, so that's why they lost belief," then good for you, but then you have a problem of explaining why any person (all of whom fall short of the grace of God, all of whom are unclean) at all has belief.

[bookofmormontruth]

I guess you've already anticipated the reaction here (e.g., "all ex's will disagree"), but really, it isn't necessarily true that living the teachings only increases belief and builds a strong foundation. Then again, if your solution to this is to increase the amount of teachings and rules that must be followed and then say, "Obviously, they didn't live all the teachings, so that's why they lost belief," then good for you, but then you have a problem of explaining why any person (all of whom fall short of the grace of God, all of whom are unclean) at all has belief.

Yes, according to you this is true.

But this reasoning is in complete contrast to what the Lord and His Prophets have taught and why people lose their testimonies. They also teach you don't have to be perfect, but you do have to put in an effort for "we are saved after all that we can do".

I hope it isn't a surprise then that as a "TBM", I believe that the Lord and His Prophets override the (thoughts, reasoning and etc) of someone who left the Lord's Church.

[Subversive Asset 2.0]

Yes, according to you this is true.

But this reasoning is in complete contrast to what the Lord and His Prophets have taught and why people lose their testimonies. They also teach you don't have to be perfect, but you do have to put in an effort for "we are saved after all that we can do".

I hope it isn't a surprise then that as a "TBM", I believe that the Lord and His Prophets override the (thoughts, reasoning and etc) of someone who left the Lord's Church.

In other words.

Some people do all they can do, but they don't gain belief, or they may lose belief. (And what's to blame? They didn't do everything.)

Some people do all they can do, but they gain or keep belief. (They didn't do everything, but hey, belief is after all you can do.)

I see.

[Calm]

I don't put a whole lot of faith in preachers. Reason being, if I hadn't been raised LDS, I'd prolly be one of them. It seems like a great scam. You just stand up at the Pew on Sunday and tell people what they want to hear and believe and then pass around the plate. They pay you, and then you tell them more of what they want to hear.

Seems like a great way to spend a life doing nothing of value.

Ah, that is not what actually goes on for most pastors, it is usually more than a full time job (24/7 on call) for not a lot of pay. Most I've seen serve their flock out of love and concern for their well being.

[DH]

I consider myself an "uncorrelated Mormon." Don't know how everybody else defines the term, but for me it's partly a matter of the literal over-correlation of the Church. It makes sense that the Church would want consistency in its teachings, practice, etc., and start the Priesthood Correlation Program to that end. However, when they change a perfectly good General Conference talk (Poelman's) after the fact, not only publishing a different text, but re-recording the video complete with cough track, it's gone too far. That's a little too "1984" for me! Nowadays they insist that teachers stick strictly to the manuals and never use outside sources in their lessons, and I see that as far too limiting. What gives?

I prefer more freedom to think and explore.

[bookofmormontruth]

In other words.

Some people do all they can do, but they don't gain belief, or they may lose belief. (And what's to blame? They didn't do everything.)

Some people do all they can do, but they gain or keep belief. (They didn't do everything, but hey, belief is after all you can do.)

I see.

I am not sure you were replying to my post, but that isn't even close in what I stated.

[Subversive Asset 2.0]

I am not sure you were replying to my post, but that isn't even close in what I stated.

I apologize then. Two messages from two of your posts were kinda contradicting each other, nevertheless.

[bookofmormontruth]

I apologize then. Two messages from two of your posts were kinda contradicting each other, nevertheless.

No worries.

"Kinda" or were? I am more than willing to discuss any perceived "contradiction".

[Subversive Asset 2.0]

No worries. I am more than willing to discuss any perceived "contradiction".

I guess a few questions would be in order.

What do you think that "all one could do" would look like (in terms of gaining belief/faith)?

What do you think that not performing "all one could do" would look like (in terms of not gaining belief/faith, or in losing it)?

[Calm]

Nowadays they insist that teachers stick strictly to the manuals and never use outside sources in their lessons, and I see that as far too limiting.

Not quite accurate.

For example, from the NT Gospel Doctrine Teacher's Manual section on "Helps for the Teacher" it includes "6. Share insights, feelings, and experiences that relate to the lesson."

Nothing here that says those "insights" can only come from the manuals.

Also:

This manual is a tool to help you teach the doctrines of the gospel from the scriptures. It has been written for youth and adult Gospel Doctrine classes and is to be used every four years. Additional references and commentaries should not be necessary to teach the lessons.

"Should not be necessary" is not the same thing as "never use outside sources".

[bookofmormontruth]

I guess a few questions would be in order.

What do you think that "all one could do" would look like (in terms of gaining belief/faith)?

What do you think that not performing "all one could do" would look like (in terms of not gaining belief/faith, or in losing it)?

Way above my pay grade. Only G-d would know where those "lines" would be.

A more appropriate question in understanding a "TBM's" view is what steps lead to a testimony and what steps lead to losing a testimony?

Now, how about those "kinda" contradictions?

[Subversive Asset 2.0]

Way above my pay grade. Only G-d would know where those "lines" would be.

A more appropriate question in understanding a "TBM's" view is what steps lead to a testimony and what steps lead to losing a testimony?

Now, how about those "kinda" contradictions?

Fine, let's go with your adjusted question.

It's pretty critical to ascertaining whether there is a contradiction or not.

[Pahoran]

In my experience, "Uncorrelated Mormon" basically means something like this:

"When you blindly following sheeple get to be as smart as us, you'll chuckle knowingly at everything the leaders of the Church say, too!"

Regards,

Pahoran

[bookofmormontruth]

Fine, let's go with your adjusted question.

It's pretty critical to ascertaining whether there is a contradiction or not.

Ascertain away.

[Subversive Asset 2.0]

Ascertain away.

I don't have anything to go by. I have messages that you say I've misinterpreted, and an answer trying to ask for clarification that is "way above [your] pay grade." You then didn't answer the adjusted question.

Do you want me to just jump to conclusions?

[bookofmormontruth]

I don't have anything to go by. I have messages that you say I've misinterpreted, and an answer trying to ask for clarification that is "way above [your] pay grade." You then didn't answer the adjusted question.

Do you want me to just jump to conclusions?

Come on, as a former LDS member, you know the answer so no need to be coy.

Basic Sunday School answer: (Read, pray, attend meetings, sustain leaders, keep the commandments, service etc.) that lead to a testimony. The opposite is the steps that lead to losing a testimony.

From "kinda" to you "guess" to "whether" in regards to a "perceived contradiction", no wonder you jump to conclusions.

[TAO]

My friend, Asset. Doing all you can do, or not, is only in the eyes of the Lord. He judges that.... not other people, nor I. We would be making a big mistake if we were =P. Actually, I do make that mistake alot of times... but I have to repent of it when I do.

Occasionally (I have no idea how often, actually, since I don't have that privelage) he can give his servants the ability to see that imo... but I don't know when or who or under what circumstances he does that. I just know he does sometimes. Perhaps Oftentimes. Or perhaps not. I dunno.

But let me give you the experience, at least with me. When I am faithful, I get more trials, things are harder, and yet I am happier - very much happier. I make mistakes and pick myself up, repent, talk to the Lord again, and keep on going onwards.

When I am not faithful, I get stuck in a hole, and feel alot more miserable and less 'feeling' of things... it's like a giant muffler has been put over me. Not something I like... in fact... I really do my best to pray when I get that feeling, cuz it's not good.

I don't presume the Lord does it the same way to all people, but at least, that's how I know (in one way) that I am going in the right direction, or I am not, and am going towards destruction. Sometimes it's hard to listen though. That's the important thing for me to learn, really; listening.

Best Wishes, your friend,

TAO

[Subversive Asset 2.0]

Come on, as a former LDS member, you know the answer so no need to be coy.

Basic Sunday School answer: (Read, pray, attend meetings, sustain leaders, keep the commandments, service etc.) that lead to a testimony. The opposite is the steps that lead to losing a testimony.

From "kinda" to you "guess" to "whether" in regards to a "perceived contradiction", no wonder you jump to conclusions.

The problem is in explaining those who read, pray, attend meetings, sustain leaders, keep the commandments, serve, yet don't have a testimony or lose a testimony, especially as a result of their doing these things.

In one comment, you said something to the effect: Well, perhaps these people believe they are doing these things, but they fail to do one thing or another. You had additional items of what things these might be: "sympathizing with apostates, sip of wine at a social event, shopping on Sunday".

I raised that by adding more rules that could be broken (I was really concerned with things like "sympathizing with apostates" [whatever that means]), then you have the problem of explaining how ANYONE gains a testimony. Since there are so many rules, ANYONE at any time could be said not to be following all of them.

Your response: you don't have to be perfect, but you have to put in work.

I was hoping you'd clarify something to distinguish, but you don't seem to have that. In other words, we are at the place I posted a while back: you have a system that you can use simultaneously to condemn those without a testimony (they weren't perfect, therefore they lost/didn't gain a testimony) and recuse the rest (they weren't perfect, but that doesn't matter).

P.S. Yay, I have enough posts to edit now!

[bookofmormontruth]

The problem is in explaining those who read, pray, attend meetings, sustain leaders, keep the commandments, serve, yet don't have a testimony or lose a testimony, especially as a result of their doing these things.

In one comment, you said something to the effect: Well, perhaps these people believe they are doing these things, but they fail to do one thing or another. You had additional items of what things these might be: "sympathizing with apostates, sip of wine at a social event, shopping on Sunday".

I raised that by adding more rules that could be broken (I was really concerned with things like "sympathizing with apostates" [whatever that means]), then you have the problem of explaining how ANYONE gains a testimony. Since there are so many rules, ANYONE at any time could be said not to be following all of them.

Your response: you don't have to be perfect, but you have to put in work.

I was hoping you'd clarify something to distinguish, but you don't seem to have that. In other words, we are at the place I posted a while back: you have a system that you can use simultaneously to condemn those without a testimony (they weren't perfect, therefore they lost/didn't gain a testimony) and recuse the rest (they weren't perfect, but that doesn't matter).

P.S. Yay, I have enough posts to edit now!

Congrats.

Again, you aren't accurately portraying what I was saying. I see that you are trying while acting that you didn't know the simple sunday school answer that for any kind of member would know and it looks like we are comparing oranges to apples with our different backgrounds and perspectives on why members leave the Lord's Church. We obviously disagree.

I am afraid we will just go around in circles and wonder what the heck something was just stated, at least I feel that way, sorry.

To clarify, "sympathizing with apostates" and affiliating with various apostate groups is part of the questions for a recommend. It would fall under the step that leads to losing a testimony; in addition so would "sipping on wine at a social event" and "shopping on Sunday".

Bottom line: The Lord and His Prophets have completely different views than post-members etc on why members leave the Lord's Church. There usually is a certain pattern and certain steps why this happens and I know that is debatable - just not for me a "TBM" who believes in the Lord and His Prophets.