LAST DAYS

[DH]

LeSellers, you sound like a crazy fanatic to me.

Deborah, I think Elder Pace was correct in saying we should participate in community life. Not only in an effort to win people over to our way of thinking, but just because it's the right thing to do. God loves all his children, and regardless of whether or not we face imminent world meltdown, loving others is what saints do.

I get a little tired of people hyperventilating about how terrible everything is, and all the disasters that are going to occur. Yes, we all face tough times, but I think the Lord will see to it everything works out for the best in the end. It's not our job to stand idly by and watch other people suffer, but rather to help relieve that suffering. It's what Christ would do.

[LeSellers]

LeSellers,

As I have done with many other here, I invite you to call me Lehi, as my mother-in-law does and as (thankfully) former Presidents Carter and Clinton did.

you sound like a crazy fanatic to me.

Yup, thas me, awright: crazy fanatic.

There are typically two kinds of people who react that way: grtf-welfare school teachers and their families, and radical left-wing liberals who agree with the party line being crammed down the throats of our children.

I won't ask which category you fall into.

I think Elder Pace was correct in saying we should participate in community life. Not only in an effort to win people over to our way of thinking, but just because it's the right thing to do. God loves all his children, and regardless of whether or not we face imminent world meltdown, loving others is what saints do.

So who was advocating anything else?

I get a little tired of people hyperventilating about how terrible everything is, and all the disasters that are going to occur. Yes, we all face tough times, but I think the Lord will see to it everything works out for the best in the end. It's not our job to stand idly by and watch other people suffer, but rather to help relieve that suffering. It's what Christ would do.

Again, who was advocating a different approach?

Lehi

[Nathair/|\]

Stash massive quantities of weapons?

(Check the date before you respond)

I was thinking the same thing,

Don't know if you can tell from the picture, but that is a claymore (same style William Wallace carried) over my right shoulder--battle ready, not wall hanger.

Yours under the barbaric oaks,

Nathair /|\

[Nathair/|\]

As I have done with many other here, I invite you to call me Lehi, as my mother-in-law does and as (thankfully) former Presidents Carter and Clinton did.

Yup, thas me, awright: crazy fanatic.

There are typically two kinds of people who react that way: grtf-welfare school teachers and their families, and radical left-wing liberals who agree with the party line being crammed down the throats of our children.

I won't ask which category you fall into.

So who was advocating anything else?

Again, who was advocating a different approach?

Lehi

Lehi,

You're probably the best person to ask, what's this I hear about Utah reestablishing gold and silver as legal tender?

[DH]

As I have done with many other here, I invite you to call me Lehi, as my mother-in-law does and as (thankfully) former Presidents Carter and Clinton did.

Yup, thas me, awright: crazy fanatic.

There are typically two kinds of people who react that way: grtf-welfare school teachers and their families, and radical left-wing liberals who agree with the party line being crammed down the throats of our children.

I won't ask which category you fall into.

So who was advocating anything else?

That was probably a bit rude of me--my apologies. I am neither a school teacher nor a person who tows the party line. I am, however, a product and supporter of public education. I don't think public education detracted in any way from my understanding or acceptance of the gospel of Jesus Christ, and it gave me a pretty decent foundation on which to build my future studies. It's not perfect, but what in this world is?

My comments to Deborah had nothing to do with you. I was not suggesting that you or anybody else here was advocating any other approach. It's just that I see a lot of other people (like people at work, in the media, etc.) getting all excited and wringing their hands. I have to admit that I get anxious about the state of the world, too, BUT I have faith that God will sort things out (we may have to wait till the next life, but hey!). I'm sure that you share that faith, too.

Peace.

[Deborah]

I see a lot of other people (like people at work, in the media, etc.) getting all excited and wringing their hands. I have to admit that I get anxious about the state of the world, too, BUT I have faith that God will sort things out (we may have to wait till the next life, but hey!).

I agree. All we can do is prepare as much as we can and then trust in the Lord. This scripture from D&C 123:17 comes to mind. "Therefore, dearly beloved brethren, let us cheerfully do all things that lie in our power; and then may we stand still, with the utmost assurance, to see the salvation of God, and for his arm to be revealed."

[erichard]

I saw this quote today.

"We know the prophecies of the future. We know the final outcome. We know the world collectively will not repent, and, consequently, the last days will be filled with much pain and suffering. Therefore, we could throw up our hands and do nothing but pray for the end to come so the millennial reign could begin. To do so would forfeit our right to participate in the grand event we are all awaiting. We must all become players in the winding-up scene, not spectators. We must do all we can to prevent calamities and then do everything possible to assist and comfort the victims of tragedies that do occur."

[Questing Beast]

Yeah, that whole repent and prepare message throughout the scriptures is sooooo passe. Good thing we have people now to tell us how super we are and how everything is going great.

Gag me.

It is fear-mongering: very old tactics to control people, and caused by the human vice of seeking power, and to a lesser degree the desire to make people behave (who otherwise would act outrageously). A bit of the "fear of God" does some stubborn people some good, some priggish people feel. Also, an "end justifies the means" mentality (yet another human vice) seems enough justification for "lying for the Lord" in order to get said-miscreants to behave, etc.

Look at history: countless times in the last 2K years Christianity has apprehended the LAST DAYS and SECOND COMING with all its calamities. Instead of that "blessed" event, we have a steady emancipation of humanity from its (inbred) superstitions and prejudices. If you think that the world is worse than it has ever been, and getting worse by the hour, then you are a sad, angry little being and I pity you.

Who is more likely to be right: a sad, fearful, angry person; or a hopeful, ecumenical peaceful person? I have participated in the former and have since embraced the latter. It goes along with Elwood P. Dowd's famous line: "In this life you must either be oh so smart, or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I tried smart. I prefer pleasant. You may quote me"....

[The Nehor]

It is fear-mongering: very old tactics to control people, and caused by the human vice of seeking power, and to a lesser degree the desire to make people behave (who otherwise would act outrageously). A bit of the "fear of God" does some stubborn people some good, some priggish people feel. Also, an "end justifies the means" mentality (yet another human vice) seems enough justification for "lying for the Lord" in order to get said-miscreants to behave, etc.

And if it isn't a lie?

Look at history: countless times in the last 2K years Christianity has apprehended the LAST DAYS and SECOND COMING with all its calamities.

Yes, and their being wrong on the date does not mean it will never happen.

Instead of that "blessed" event, we have a steady emancipation of humanity from its (inbred) superstitions and prejudices.

We have the same thing we have always had. A generation of humans with their generational pet vices and pet virtues. We do some things well, ignore others as irrelevant, and the bogeyman is always the opposite of our excesses in the other direction. We are kinder to children but less kind to the elderly. We are more tolerant of previously disenfranchised minorities then ever but political and social discourse has become harsher and more unkind. We are emphasizing the virtues of education for all, being politically active, providing humanitarian charity to those suffering while we deemphasize the virtues of chastity, temperance, and humility.

If you think that the world is worse than it has ever been, and getting worse by the hour, then you are a sad, angry little being and I pity you.

I don't so I guess I am a happy, calm big being.

Who is more likely to be right: a sad, fearful, angry person; or a hopeful, ecumenical peaceful person?

Neither. Give me the realist.

[Questing Beast]

Imho, a "realist" is someone who admits the enormous advances our species have made especially in the last few generations. We are more inclined to be charitable than ever. Religion has fallen below the radar of public concern for fairness and equality, and especially justice. A realist knows that human nature has not changed, but application of Law has improved steadily, to the point where we now demand a democratic attention to the details: the Qaddafi's of the world are old school barbaric tyranny and are a dying breed. We are in the final death throes of their demise: democratic, ecumenical thinking people simply outnumber the tyrants and their sycophants too much for the dark side to triumph in the near future. "Until the next time" is even prophesied for the end of the millennium: so we need not think that because we have "arrived" at this most advanced, best state of existence that our species has ever known, that we are guaranteed success indefinitely. Enormous power always carries with it enormous potential for destruction.

Our powers are destructive enough to eliminate life on our world. It follows, that such power carries with it the capability to create a paradise instead. And I do not see people "circling the bowl" toward inevitable (prophesied) doom. There will be no burning of the majority; because the majority are not wicked, just flawed in countless ways.

The old sexual morality of the dogmatic religions is unpopular because it is not believed in by very many people. That does not mean that people are jumping in and out of bed with each other in ever-increasing numbers. I see people concerned with finding and selecting "the right one" with whom to live, hopefully for life. That these same people try each other out before leaping into a permanent, lawful relationship is the result of the failure of "the Greatest Generation" to stay married, or faithful within marriage in the first place. Marriage has been discredited as a "requirement" for polite society, that's all. "Marriage" is in the mind and heart, not on paper; only the Law cares about the paperwork. People care about the relationship. If it works out that they want to get the paperwork too, it will happen; but not until they are reasonably confident that their companionship is real and honest. How, exactly, is that mindset some kind of immorality?

As for the rest of it: education is reaching everywhere more and more swiftly. Economics is becoming homogeneous and the direction it is developing will answer everyone's needs justly in not very many years; the old inequities will become history. Wars will continue to diminish. Disease will continue to diminish. Life will get longer and less troubled by pain. The so-called American Dream is what is being copied and modified and improved throughout the earth. And not least, tolerance toward differences, in cultures, beliefs, religions (or the utter lack thereof) is on the upswing, not fading away before it even got a chance to mature.

There, that's my rebuttal to your rhetoric of negativity, if not doom. I don't see Judeo-Christianity as the paradigm of the future. No religion knows the future. It is yet to be written, ergo it cannot be foretold. The closest that you could forecast the future is to allow that it is malleable, i.e. it can be "reset", like an electronic game or dream. I suppose that every version we ever imagine, of our personal and shared future, has already been "played" countless times. So why not dream and work for "the best of all possible worlds"?...

[The Nehor]

Imho, a "realist" is someone who admits the enormous advances our species have made especially in the last few generations.

I did. I also say we are going backwards in other areas. We always do this in every age of history. We always emphasize our pet virtues because (unsurprisingly) those are the ones we value.

We are more inclined to be charitable than ever.

Don't think so. Unless you're just referring to charitable giving?

Religion has fallen below the radar of public concern for fairness and equality, and especially justice.

An unwelcome development. Religion has been involved in wonderful social advances like abolition and the Civil Rights movement.

A realist knows that human nature has not changed, but application of Law has improved steadily, to the point where we now demand a democratic attention to the details: the Qaddafi's of the world are old school barbaric tyranny and are a dying breed. We are in the final death throes of their demise: democratic, ecumenical thinking people simply outnumber the tyrants and their sycophants too much for the dark side to triumph in the near future.

I couldn't disagree more. Our politicians are forced to win through sound bytes and trying to get on the news through obnoxiousness. They do this because they have to. Negative campaign ads are in use because they work and slogans and hyperbole rule our elections. We don't have a "democratic attention to the details".

Tyrants come and go. I expect we have not seen their last. Some crisis in the future will lead people to demand their return as has happened before and will happen again.

"Until the next time" is even prophesied for the end of the millennium: so we need not think that because we have "arrived" at this most advanced, best state of existence that our species has ever known, that we are guaranteed success indefinitely. Enormous power always carries with it enormous potential for destruction. Our powers are destructive enough to eliminate life on our world. It follows, that such power carries with it the capability to create a paradise instead. And I do not see people "circling the bowl" toward inevitable (prophesied) doom. There will be no burning of the majority; because the majority are not wicked, just flawed in countless ways.

I disagree with your characterization of our state of existence.

The ability to create hell or heaven on earth. What has humanity chosen so far? Is there any reason they should choose differently in the future?

The old sexual morality of the dogmatic religions is unpopular because it is not believed in by very many people. That does not mean that people are jumping in and out of bed with each other in ever-increasing numbers.

Yes.

Yes they are. Been to college lately?

I see people concerned with finding and selecting "the right one" with whom to live, hopefully for life. That these same people try each other out before leaping into a permanent, lawful relationship is the result of the failure of "the Greatest Generation" to stay married, or faithful within marriage in the first place. Marriage has been discredited as a "requirement" for polite society, that's all.

Yes, and that concern has always been there. It's also a leading cause for divorce and infidelity as "the right one" designation shifts from person to person. The romantic drive is incredibly melodramatic. This is usually a good thing but it also leads to seeking any kind of sexual and romantic fulfillment because denying it carries such tragic pathos. 'To miss this chance will have been to have missed one's purpose in life'.

Our ancestors became known for their infidelity and unchastity. Therefore the cure is more of the same?

"Marriage" is in the mind and heart, not on paper; only the Law cares about the paperwork. People care about the relationship. If it works out that they want to get the paperwork too, it will happen; but not until they are reasonably confident that their companionship is real and honest.

Society cares. The relationship is not all. You are taking the risk of procreating. Society has a vested interest in making sure you don't unless you both are willing to raise your children together.

People have done this since arranged marriages went out of style. I like the older forms better when we called it courting or dating.

How, exactly, is that mindset some kind of immorality?

Because it violates the Law of God.

As for the rest of it: education is reaching everywhere more and more swiftly.

And much of it is becoming poorer quality.

Economics is becoming homogeneous and the direction it is developing will answer everyone's needs justly in not very many years; the old inequities will become history. Wars will continue to diminish. Disease will continue to diminish. Life will get longer and less troubled by pain.

You worry about us prophesying doom but you are perfectly willing to prophesy a secular millenium. The Victorians thought the same way. The Great War and the Fascist states put the lie to their 'steady progress to perfection' mentality.

The so-called American Dream is what is being copied and modified and improved throughout the earth. And not least, tolerance toward differences, in cultures, beliefs, religions (or the utter lack thereof) is on the upswing, not fading away before it even got a chance to mature. There, that's my rebuttal to your rhetoric of negativity, if not doom.

Victorian era rhetoric in the opposite direction?

I don't see Judeo-Christianity as the paradigm of the future.

I don't either and this is what scares me.

No religion knows the future. It is yet to be written, ergo it cannot be foretold. The closest that you could forecast the future is to allow that it is malleable, i.e. it can be "reset", like an electronic game or dream. I suppose that every version we ever imagine, of our personal and shared future, has already been "played" countless times.

Yet you did it endlessly throughout your post. To sum up your ideas you think 'everything is getting better and will continue to do so'. You are replacing religious prophecy with secular prophecy. At least we claim to have an omniscient giving it. You're guessing. It's a guess that has been made repeatedly throughout history in societies where things are going well from Rome at it's height to Assyria victorious to Victorian cultural evolution to today. Their hopes were all dashed. I'm not sure why you think this time should be different.

So why not dream and work for "the best of all possible worlds"?...

I do. A world that neither you or I can possibly imagine.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

If you think that the world is worse than it has ever been, and getting worse by the hour, then you are a sad, angry little being and I pity you.

Stop you are embarrassing me with all your sweet talk.