Social Justice in the Bible

[volgadon]

I was pointing more at the tendency to manipulate or call upon government to do the work rather than working as a people. Israel may be a culture that is less prone to offer assistance where productivity exists. It may also be the person looked like a Palestinian. There is more to a viceral reaction, especially a nation surrounded by people that may be enemies at a drop of a hat.

No, he looked like the Ashkenazi that he is. Besides, most professional beggars I know in Israel are Mizrachi, that is, they look Arab. However, we are fairly good at telling who is what in Israel.

[Tarski]

YUP!

Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.

Or two poor minorities and one rich white guy voting on whether the current system is fair or not.

[Jeff K.]

Ashkenazi are not necessarily viewed with brotherly love by the immigrant groups as I recall. In many ways Israelis remain tribal, whether of Polish or Russian or Western versus Eastern European descent.

[volgadon]

Ashkenazi are not necessarily viewed with brotherly love by the immigrant groups as I recall. In many ways Israelis remain tribal, whether of Polish or Russian or Western versus Eastern European descent.

It depends. Tel-Aviv has a large Ashkenazi presence, in many ways it is an extremely Ashkenazic city. All this is neither here nor there. Israel is a society more well-disposed towards beggars, yet begging doesn't tend to bring in a very large or depandable income. Of course there are people who abuse welfare systems, as there are people who abuse anything and everything.

[Hamba Tuhan]

I haven't read this entire thread, but, for what it's worth, I read this quote from Pres Faust just this morning: 'When we preach the gospel of social justice, no doubt the devil is not troubled' (link).

[WalkerW]

I will. It will be great to finally meet you in person.

As for capitalism [rubs hands in delight], here is some recent research that discusses the moral, collective nature of markets:

Paul J. Zak (ed.), Moral Markets: The Critical Role of Values in the Economy (Princeton University Press, 2008). See

with him for an overview of his findings.

J. Henrich, R. Boyd, S. Bowles, C. Camerer, E. Fehr, H. Gintis, R. McElreath, M. Alvard, A. Barr, J. Ensminger, K. Hill, F. Gil-White, M. Gurven, F. Marlowe, J. Patton, N. Smith, D. Tracer,

[David Bokovoy]

Good, because an appeal to authority is a fallacy, and I have been somewhat discomfited and embarrassed for you in some of your personal claims. Hugh Nibley would never have drawn attention to his personal qualifications. Better to remain humble and to engage the issues directly.

Embarrassed for me because I've shared with the board a little of what it took to gain a serious academic background in an area in which I hold passion, but for which I recognize that there is generally speaking, very little interest and perhaps slightly less practical worth?!! Embarrassed because despite the trivial nature of the degree, to me and my family, the degree means something so that I expressed a wiliness to entertain other perspectives and/or disagreement with my views, yet refused to be told publicly that I don't understand my field?!!

Clearly yours is a perfect illustration why one should not pass judgment upon an individual one doesn't know based upon a couple of comments posted on a message board.

Frankly, I'm tired of the personal attacks, name-calling, and self-righteous judgment manifested so frequently in this forum. What a shame.

[Jeff K.]

It depends. Tel-Aviv has a large Ashkenazi presence, in many ways it is an extremely Ashkenazic city. All this is neither here nor there. Israel is a society more well-disposed towards beggars, yet begging doesn't tend to bring in a very large or depandable income. Of course there are people who abuse welfare systems, as there are people who abuse anything and everything.

mail on line

Why Professional Beggars Earn More Money Than You

I think panhandlers like any group have some that aren't as good as others. The point is that all systems are open to all kinds of abuse, not just from the poor, as my earlier post illustrates. Even corporations can be "panhandlers".

[WalkerW]

I'm currently reading Steven Johnson, Where Good Ideas Come From: The Natural History of Innovation (Riverhead Books, 2010). It is a nice companion piece to Ridley's book. See his

. I follow economist Deirdre McCloskey's lead in redefining "capitalism" and "markets" as "innovation." View Johnson's work through the lens of Ridley's concept that "

" in the market.

So, add this to the list.

He actually has an interesting approach to markets toward the end of his book. He is interested more so in supporting the free flow of ideas rather than defending market systems entirely. He points to universities as examples of innovative areas that are "non-market," yet allow the free flow of ideas.

As Ridley has noted, "I am becoming a bit obsessed with how misleading the word capitalism is to describe what is now happening in the free-enterprise system. Facebook is an utterly different form of business from Andrew Carnegie's U.S. Steel, not least in needing far less capital."

[Jeff K.]

It also employs far less people and so the multiplier diminishes significantly.

[volgadon]

Good, because an appeal to authority is a fallacy, and I have been somewhat discomfited and embarrassed for you in some of your personal claims. Hugh Nibley would never have drawn attention to his personal qualifications. Better to remain humble and to engage the issues directly.

I'm certainly not embarrassed for David. I read the following from Sayings of the Fathers over him. "Ben Zoma said, Who is wise (alt. sage)? He that learns from every man; for it is said, From all my teachers I gat understanding (Ps. 119:99)."

David has always shown a willingness to listen to the opinions, proposals and conjecture of people, even when they have little training in biblical studies or Hebrew.

[gurn]

Fair enough. I appreciate where you're coming from. My perspective, is that when the wealthy hoard resources, they do actively harm the poor. Additionally, since I accept the validity of the biblical view regarding communal sins, I believe that the government representing a community holds a moral responsibility to see that virtue and charity are legislated. If they do so, from a biblical perspective, God will bless that community; so the leaders representing that body should do everything they can to insure that no one harms the poor. I believe that communities and their governments should seek to implement the counsel of Jacob in the Book of Mormon, "Think of your brethren like unto yourselves, and be familiar with all and free with your substance, that they may be rich like unto you" (Jacob 2:17).

This quote caused me hours of lost sleep. Were this merely some academic exercise in the study of ancient texts, I

[WalkerW]

It also employs far less people and so the multiplier diminishes significantly.

Very true and I don't think he denies that. His main point was to emphasize that it is the free flow of ideas that is most important when it comes to innovation. He went on to talk about liberalizing copyrights and the like.

Believe me, he is a big supporter of markets throughout the book.

[David Bokovoy]

I will oppose David and his ilk at every step until the prophet reveals that God will use government to institute Zion. I suspect we

[Vance]

Or two poor minorities and one rich white guy voting on whether the current system is fair or not.

Or two indolent wastrals and one industrious hard worker voting on whether the current system is fair or not.

[volgadon]

Fifteen minutes of purely speculative, "What I think Christ is saying here..."

I have got to tell you about gospel doctrine class in January. Me and my wife were in class, and when the lesson reached the Massacre of the Innocents, someone raised their hand and said, "Do you know, the mayor of Logan is just as bad as Herod ever was. He will stop at nothing to stay in power!"

[volgadon]

BUT!!!!

Taxes weren't being used. Taxes weren't even being collected.

Mosiah 2:14 And even I, myself, have labored with mine own hands that I might serve you, and that ye should not be laden with taxes, and that there should nothing come upon you which was grievous to be borne

[WalkerW]

I am truly convinced that much of the disagreement with "communal" or "collective" economics comes from thinking of capitalism in purely individualistic terms. This is due largely to the influence of the Protestant Reformation and the Enlightenment (and particularly John Locke, a product of both) on Western civilization.

One main factor of markets is the utilization of dispersed knowledge throughout the community or, in other words, the utilization of communal knowledge.

This is a revised version of a blog post I wrote a while back on this topic:

The first American settlers of Jamestown arrived in May 1607. The settlers engaged in a kind of communalism in which the products of labor would be placed into a common pool to sustain the settlement. Despite the plentiful amount of game and fertile soil, only 38 of the original 104 settlers were alive within six months largely due to famine. Another 500 were sent a couple years later, only to have another 440 die in the first six months. Scholars and economists have long recognized the connection between communal ownership and lack of production. The incentive to provide quality labor was sorely missing, which led to free riding and an eventual lack of output. Laziness was the common plague. In 1611, Sir Thomas Dale was sent by the British government as the "high marshal" of the Virginia colony. Dale put into place private ownership, which not only increased individual responsibility and risk, but overall prosperity as well [1].

The Pilgrims at Plymouth ran into similar problems (within six months, almost 1/2 of the population was wiped out). It was not until private ownership was put into effect that the Pilgrims began to prosper, with each family being assigned one to ten acres [2]. William Bradford blamed the collectivist mentality on Platonic philosophy, declaring (mark this) that "God in His wisdom saw another course fitter for them." It was this course that actually led to the economic survival and growth of the American colonies and the eventual establishment of the United States of America [3].

Upon arrival in the Great Basin, Mormon pioneers engaged in similar economic activity known as the United Order. Robert Ellickson of Yale University points out that group ownership among these three historic examples was most likely a risk-spreading device:

All three pioneer settlements were remote outposts, located weeks or months away from civilization...Remoteness precluded risk-spreading through multigenerational kinship networks, insurance markets, or government welfare programs. The settlers could spread risks only among themselves, and one option was to have a collective economy that guaranteed each member some share of total group output...[A]fter a few years, the risk-spreading benefits of group land ownership would no longer outweigh its familiar shortcomings, such as the shirking that notably afflicted Jamestown and Plymouth. [4]

On the Great Basin experience, Nathan Oman of William & Mary Law School notes,

To a greater and lesser extent, all of these [united Order] programs failed economically. Why was this, and is there anything to be gleaned about how we should think about markets from these failures?

Generally speaking, Mormons have offered two explanations for the failure of these arrangements. The first is unrighteousness. The saints were simply too selfish and petty to pull it off. The required levels of self-sacrifice, charity, and unity could not be met. People cheated and held back a portion and the whole thing fell apart. The second dominant explanation is persecution. Things were humming along quite nicely, we claim, until malignant outside forces in the form of either

[WalkerW]

I have got to tell you about gospel doctrine class in January. Me and my wife were in class, and when the lesson reached the Massacre of the Innocents, someone raised their hand and said, "Do you know, the mayor of Logan is just as bad as Herod ever was. He will stop at nothing to stay in power!"

[volgadon]

I think this is probably why we segregate investigators in gospel essentials classes.

[WalkerW]

Vance, I wouldn't be too hasten in stating that taxes weren't even being collected. It seems that King Benjamin is saying that he did not place heavy taxes and levies upon the people. It seems rather obvious that KB is alluding to the notorious incident at the beginning of Rehoboam's reign over the united Israelite kingdom. Please note how often certain key words in Mosiah 2 appear in the following account. Hardly coincidental.

And Jeroboam and all the congregation of Israel came, and spake unto Rehoboam, saying,

Thy father made our yoke grievous: now therefore make thou the grievous service of thy father, and his heavy yoke which he put upon us, lighter, and we will serve thee.

And he said unto them, Depart yet for three days, then come again to me. And the people departed.

And king Rehoboam consulted with the old men, that stood before Solomon his father while he yet lived, and said, How do ye advise that I may answer this people?

And they spake unto him, saying, If thou wilt be a servant unto this people this day, and wilt serve them, and answer them, and speak good words to them, then they will be thy servants for ever.

But he forsook the counsel of the old men, which they had given him, and consulted with the young men that were grown up with him, and which stood before him:

And he said unto them, What counsel give ye that we may answer this people, who have spoken to me, saying, Make the yoke which thy father did put upon us lighter?

And the young men that were grown up with him spake unto him, saying, Thus shalt thou speak unto this people that spake unto thee, saying, Thy father made our yoke heavy, but make thou it lighter unto us; thus shalt thou say unto them, My little finger shall be thicker than my father's loins.

And now whereas my father did lade you with a heavy yoke, I will add to your yoke: my father hath chastised you with whips, but I will chastise you with scorpions.

So Jeroboam and all the people came to Rehoboam the third day, as the king had appointed, saying, Come to me again the third day.

And the king answered the people roughly, and forsook the old men's counsel that they gave him;

And spake to them after the counsel of the young men, saying, My father made your yoke heavy, and I will add to your yoke: my father also chastised you with whips, but I will chastise you with scorpions.

Wherefore the king hearkened not unto the people; for the cause was from the LORD, that he might perform his saying, which the LORD spake by Ahijah the Shilonite unto Jeroboam the son of Nebat.

So when all Israel saw that the king hearkened not unto them, the people answered the king, saying, What portion have we in David? neither have we inheritance in the son of Jesse: to your tents, O Israel: now see to thine own house, David. So Israel departed unto their tents.

-1 Kings 12:3-16.

Rehoboam's rough treatment of the people cost him half the kingdom.This was seen as a political, social and religious crisis. King Benjamin alludes to it, and contrasts his behavior with that of Rehoboam. Pretty politically savy, actually.

Great insight!

I too have always interpreted King Benjamin's sermon as being light on taxes, not no taxes.

For a natural law approach to taxes, see Edward Feser, "Classical Natural Law Theory, Property Rights, and Taxation," Social Philosophy and Policy 27:1 (2010).

[WalkerW]

I think this is probably why we segregate investigators in gospel essentials classes.

I think this is why some seasoned members still prefer to go to gospel essentials classes.

[Jeff K.]

Very true and I don't think he denies that. His main point was to emphasize that it is the free flow of ideas that is most important when it comes to innovation. He went on to talk about liberalizing copyrights and the like.

Believe me, he is a big supporter of markets throughout the book.

I think the free flow of ideas is prehaps the greatest innovation that the internet has provided. And for the most part it benefits society tremendously. But it is not without its negative aspects as well.

[Jeff K.]

I am truly convinced that much of the disagreement with "communal" or "collective" economics comes from thinking of capitalism in purely individualistic terms. This is due largely to the influence of the Protestant Reformation and the Enlightenment (and particularly John Locke, a product of both) on Western civilization.

One main factor of markets is the utilization of dispersed knowledge throughout the community or, in other words, the utilization of communal knowledge.

This is a revised version of a blog post I wrote a while back on this topic:

But capitalism's basis is purely individualistic. Smith stated the individual knew more clearly what was better for him than the government did. You would have to toss out "Wealth of Nations" to walk away from that idea.

[WalkerW]

I think the free flow of ideas is prehaps the greatest innovation that the internet has provided. And for the most part it benefits society tremendously. But it is not without its negative aspects as well.

Dead-on. Johnson notes that big cities are 17x more innovative than smaller towns and villages. He also points out that crime is higher, possibly because criminals are also more innovative at their trade.