Social Justice in the Bible

[Loran Howard Blood]

There is nothing that states that going to the state cannot take place at the same time as family and Church assistance is sought and church leaders can even offer assistance in seeking out this assistance.

I have never heard this taught, in half a century, in any gospel manual, by any Bishop, an GA, or anyone else in authority in the Church. But why quibble? Here's what Providing the Lord's Way asserts:

When Church members are doing all they can to provide for themselves but still cannot meet their basic needs, they should first turn to their families for help. When this is not sufficient, the Church stands ready to assist.

Every Bishop, every SP I've ever known has taught that, only after these are exhausted, are we to turn to the state. This is the optimum progression and pattern.

There are no conditions on when this direction should take place. My bishop up in Canada was told at a leadership meeting that the Church was not there to duplicate what the government was already doing, but rather was to help fill in the gaps and promote self-reliance in the long run.

Tell us some more stories Cal...

[volgadon]

No &%#@ Sherlock. I'm well aware of that. But, as that has nothing to do with what I'm arguing here, I pass on it.

No, I guess it has nothing to do with your smug, self-righteous condescension.

[Loran Howard Blood]

No, I guess it has nothing to do with your smug, self-righteous condescension.

And now it came to pass that after I, Nephi, had made an end of speaking to my brethren, behold they said unto me: Thou hast declared unto us hard things, more than we are able to bear.

And it came to pass that I said unto them that I knew that I had spoken hard things against the wicked, according to the truth; and the righteous have I justified, and testified that they should be lifted up at the last day; wherefore, the guilty taketh the truth to be hard, for it cutteth them to the very center (1 Nephi 16: 1-2).

[volgadon]

I have never heard this taught, in half a century, in any gospel manual, by any Bishop, an GA, or anyone else in authority in the Church. But why quibble? Here's what Providing the Lord's Way asserts:

Every Bishop, every SP I've ever known has taught that, only after these are exhausted, are we to turn to the state. This is the optimum progression and pattern.

I've served as a councillor in my branch presidency, and my dad was branch president for over a decade. Guess what, Calmoriah is right. In Israel, where unemployment is paid by the state, we have never told someone to get help from family first, the branch second, and only then unemployment. If both unemployment and family isn't enough, then the branch will help.

[volgadon]

And now it came to pass that after I, Nephi, had made an end of speaking to my brethren, behold they said unto me: Thou hast declared unto us hard things, more than we are able to bear.

And it came to pass that I said unto them that I knew that I had spoken hard things against the wicked, according to the truth; and the righteous have I justified, and testified that they should be lifted up at the last day; wherefore, the guilty taketh the truth to be hard, for it cutteth them to the very center (1 Nephi 16: 1-2).

Just how is "No &%#@ Sherlock" an acceptable expression of Nephi's staement, or is it a carte blanc for you to be a jerk?

[Loran Howard Blood]

I've served as a councillor in my branch presidency, and my dad was branch president for over a decade. Guess what, Calmoriah is right. In Israel, where unemployment is paid by the state, we have never told someone to get help from family first, the branch second, and only then unemployment. If both unemployment and family isn't enough, then the branch will help.

So, you don't use Providing the Lord's Way over in Israel eh? Do you have an alternative set of General Authorities over there as well? Do you have an alternative General Conference?

If you think I'm going to fall for this, Volgladon, please take a seat, as you'll be waiting a very, very long time.

Coming from a anti-liberal collectivist such as yourself, forgive me if I place little weight in your anecdotes.

[Loran Howard Blood]

Just how is "No &%#@ Sherlock" an acceptable expression of Nephi's staement, or is it a carte blanc for you to be a jerk?

No, its just time that pompous, condescending leftist bigots like yourself be put in their place without a great deal of flowery language to soften the blow.

[Hestia]

No, its just time that pompous, condescending leftist bigots like yourself be put in their place without a great deal of flowery language to soften the blow.

Enough name calling. You are out of the thread.

[volgadon]

So, you don't use Providing the Lord's Way over in Israel eh?

Yes, we do, but the church knows that circumstances vary the world over.

Do you have an alternative set of General Authorities over there as well?

We used to report directly to the twelve.

Do you have an alternative General Conference?

Yes, and another Jesus too.

If you think I'm going to fall for this, Volgladon, please take a seat, as you'll be waiting a very, very long time.

Coming from a anti-liberal collectivist such as yourself, forgive me if I place little weight in your anecdotes.

Anti-liberal? I thought I was an apologist for socialism, according to you.

[volgadon]

No, its just time that pompous, condescending leftist bigots like yourself be put in their place without a great deal of flowery language to soften the blow.

You are welcome to act as unpleasent as you like, just as long as we are clear that your behaviour is NOT in keeping with Nephi's statement.

[Calm]

Tell us some more stories Cal...

Don't have to, the Handbook makes it clear.

[Jeff K.]

I am sorry, but you really are clueless here about what I do and do not see. I really wish you would stop making assumptions and jumping the conversation ahead to attacking positions I do not hold. You have not been right on one thing yet.

It seems also that I am not the only one you are doing this to.

Every instance of Zion existing in the past and every description of Zion in the future has Zion under the direction of Christ and/or the prophet/priestking. Some of us take that direction as a given.

Well you shouldn't. So far all I see are rather shallow platitudes without a very basic understanding of what must be. I don't think you have much of an idea how Zion would be organized, much less the ideal that everyone must agree. The only time I know of Zion existing, in its fullest form was the City of Enoch. Now if you know something of that organization, please feel free to let us know.

Otherwise, it really is a silly exercise of beating people over the head with "social justice", maintaining that vagueness is not the way of explaining Zion.

[Calm]

I've served as a councillor in my branch presidency, and my dad was branch president for over a decade. Guess what, Calmoriah is right. In Israel, where unemployment is paid by the state, we have never told someone to get help from family first, the branch second, and only then unemployment. If both unemployment and family isn't enough, then the branch will help.

Almost every last young family I've known at BYU and in Utah County over the past 40 years has been on some sort of temporary government assistance, usually either WIC or food stamps...and this is with plenty of food in the Bishop's Storehouse down here. It makes no sense for the Church to spend money on something that has already been paid for when they could use the money for something that isn't.

[volgadon]

Otherwise, it really is a silly exercise of beating people over the head with "social justice", maintaining that vagueness is not the way of explaining Zion.

Perhaps you missed my post on the social background to social justice. The Bible conceived of Israel as being God's kin, with an obligation to care, provide and protect for ALL its members.

[Jeff K.]

It is a position that one is likely to hold if one believes that the scriptures are inerrant, that God's teachings to men have always been the same no matter what the cultural understandings or some such thing and such teachings have always been clearly transmitted by their human carriers.

Or, it could be that there are other interpretations plausible which do not necessarily fall under the classification of presentism.

[Jeff K.]

Perhaps you missed my post on the social background to social justice. The Bible conceived of Israel as being God's kin, with an obligation to care, provide and protect for ALL its members.

That is not Zion. That is tribalism. A system not unique to Israel. Just because the Bible explains it does not mean that has the endorsement of God as Zion. Israel was a tribal nomadic group that did indeed kill or exile those who did not live up to the standards it had addressed. I would also point out they tended towards genocide in order to acquire resources.

Did God lead them every step of the way? Not really. We know of many instances when they rejected God's position. We don't know of all the instances, and to presume that we do would advocating a completeness and inerrancy.

Something to consider.

[volgadon]

That is not Zion. That is tribalism. A system not unique to Israel. Just because the Bible explains it does not mean that has the endorsement of God as Zion. Israel was a tribal nomadic group that did indeed kill or exile those who did not live up to the standards it had addressed. I would also point out they tended towards genocide in order to acquire resources.

Did God lead them every step of the way? Not really. We know of many instances when they rejected God's position. We don't know of all the instances, and to presume that we do would advocating a completeness and inerrancy.

Something to consider.

No, it isn't really tribalism, it grew out of tribalism. When society became too large to be governed by tribes, the new social relationships were expressed in language drawn from that of kinship.

[Jeff K.]

No, I disagree, the population was reduced to various tribal groups. Generally under familial reigns.

The rules they followed were tribal rules. There was no system of federalism, in which central authority interacted with local tribal leaders (making it a nation state), nor was there a fixed system in which distinct tribal authorities interacted with a central governing system. Indeed tribes worked together, worked against each other, sometimes made alliances with Philistines, Egyptians, and so on. It was their "tribe" that counted, not Zion. We especially see this later when the kingdoms fractured (they were always on the verge of breaking away.

I would not call that Zion.

[David Bokovoy]

Self-trained, for the most part. I say for the most part because one of the unique features of Israeli schools is that biblical studies are part of the required curriculum from 2nd grade upwards. That provides the basic framework for biblical scholarship. I've learned a lot from interacting with you as well.

Yes, but you have a natural feel for the land, people, and language that I certainly will never come close to possessing. Honestly, thanks for participating you dirty, rotten, socialist, scum of the earth bag, you!

(Sorry, I'm just trying to fit in).

Love ya, Bro!

[volgadon]

Yes, but you have a natural feel for the land, people, and language that I certainly will never come close to possessing.

Thank you, that is high praise.

do you think that the prohibition on keeping a coat as a pledge overnight has more to do with dignity (having as it does status connotations) or is it a matter of providing for the basic needs of the weak, even when it injures your own interest?

Honestly, thanks for participating you dirty, rotten, socialist, scum of the earth bag, you!

(Sorry, I'm just trying to fit in).

Love ya, Bro!

Thank you, my brother, you pseudo-intellectual posturer and unorthodox iconoclast. =)

[Calm]

Thank you, my brother, you pseudo-intellectual posturer and unorthodox iconoclast. =)

All about the old boys club, how come none of us girls are getting called names. It's not fair!;)

[TAO]

All about the old boys club, how come none of us girls are getting called names. It's not fair!:crazy:

I can fix that

You awesome beautiful virtuous sacred temple of your loving spouse!

There. You've been insulted (somewhat).

I'm sure you could ask your husband for more 'insults'. I'm pretty sure he'd be more than willing to oblige in those terms and biases I gave.

Best Wishes,

TAO

[Calm]

I can fix that

You awesome beautiful virtuous sacred temple of your loving spouse!

There. You've been insulted (somewhat).

I'm sure you could ask your husband for more 'insults'. I'm pretty sure he'd be more than willing to oblige in those terms and biases I gave.

Best Wishes,

TAO

You never disappoint, Tao.

[WalkerW]

No, its just time that pompous, condescending leftist bigots like yourself be put in their place without a great deal of flowery language to soften the blow.

Being someone who interacts with volgadon outside of these forums, I'm deeply offended by this.

The only one who has shown any bigotry in this entire conversation is you, Loran. You happen to be the only one who keeps bringing up "left" and "right" as well.

[WalkerW]

Taking two minutes to explain the ancient pagan concept of prayer as reflected in the Greek Magical Papyri saves fifteen minutes of discussing what vain repetition isn't.

Fifteen minutes of purely speculative, "What I think Christ is saying here..."