If God doesn't want us to sin . . .

[zerinus]

Things are working out exactly "as planned". Father knew we would sin, but that's far from saying He wanted us to sin or that He required that we sin.

Father is at least as good a tactician and strategist as Napoleon or Patton. And they both knew how to use the enemy's habits and history to gain their objectives. Patton famously read Rommel and could use that information when he planned his own campaigns against the German.

God does not want us to sin. If He did, he'd be going against His own nature (which is not even possible): "For I the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance". He is holy.

But, knowing we would sin, He provided a way by which we could repent and return to holiness ourselves so we can live with Him again. But, while He planned for it, it was not His will.

Lehi

Thank you LeSellers, I was hoping that somebody would turn up and put a bit of sense into this.

[zerinus]

Then why is it called the plan of salvation?

So if you rescued someone from drowning, that means that his original drowning was a good thing because it gave you the chance to rescue him?

[zerinus]

You completely miss the point as long as you continue to see it this way.

I think you missed the point long ago.

Have I mentioned we are all respectively Adam and Eve?

Yes, and replied to in post #259.

[zerinus]

And in the hopes of clarity (since I am known to be confusing), there can be no such thing as a command to sin. It is an oxymoron.

It is only through violating commandments that we sin.

And that is why God gives us commandments he knows we cannot keep.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

That is the false theology of Protestantism and Evangelicalism. It is a far cry from teachings of Mormonism.

[consiglieri]

Thank you LeSellers, I was hoping that somebody would turn up and put a bit of sense into this.

God knows you haven't.

[zerinus]

Do you see any problem claiming this about an omniscient Being?

No! Did you want to tell me about it?

[consiglieri]

So if you rescued someone from drowning, that means that his original drowning was a good thing because it gave you the chance to rescue him?

If the entire episode were called "The Plan of Rescue," one would think the rescue might be part of the plan.

[consiglieri]

That is the false theology of Protestantism and Evangelicalism. It is a far cry from teachings of Mormonism.

Has it ever occurred to you that "Protestantism and Evangelicalism" might have gotten some things right?

[consiglieri]

No! Did you want to tell me about it?

Is there anything that could stop you?

[zerinus]

It isn't about wanting us to sin. It's about recognizing the necessity of experiencing opposition in order to acquire knowledge.

Experiencing opposition does not necessitate sinning. As I said before, Learning good and evil by experience is achieved by experiencing adversity, not by sinning. As Paul said of Jesus, "Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered" (Hebrews 5:8 ). He learned obedience like the rest of us by experiencing adversity, not by sinning. We, too, don't need to sin to "learn obedience," but experience adversity.

If He was solely governed by His inability to abide sin, He would intercede every time an evil act occured, and yet He doesn't.

He does not do that because He respects our freewill. That does not mean that He condones our sins, or even regards it as inevitable.

[zerinus]

Ooooh, I wish I'd said that. That is exactly how I see it. It's the design of the test, not the test instructions that makes the outcome inevitable.

Wrong!

[consiglieri]

Wrong!

You know, when zerinus uses an exclamation mark, I find myself more inclined to believe him.

[zerinus]

Adam and Eve were commanded by God not to eat of the fruit.

Ps. It was not impossible. All they had to do was wait until God commanded them to eat of the fruit.

Thank you. An insightful post.

[mercyngrace]

Wrong!

Remember when Zerinus said we dated in the pre-existence? This is why I didn't look him up once my eyes were opened.

[zerinus]

If the entire episode were called "The Plan of Rescue," one would think the rescue might be part of the plan.

It is: "If Adam puts forth his hand and partake of the fruit, we will provide a savior for him . . ."

[mercyngrace]

It is: "If Adam puts forth his hand and partake of the fruit, we will provide a savior for him . . ."

Zerinus, that only establishes Adam's incorruptible state in the garden. Once Adam fell, as Lehi said he must, if became when which is precisely why there is there is no path to salvation except through the redemption of Jesus Christ. The words you're referencing were uttered before death and hell entered the world.

[Senator]

which is precisely why there is there is no path to salvation except through the redemption of Jesus Christ.

Evidently there is. I queried big Z way back in post 128 about this, to which I never got a response.

[zerinus]

Has it ever occurred to you that "Protestantism and Evangelicalism" might have gotten some things right?

I am sure they have, but that is not one of them.

[zerinus]

Remember when Zerinus said we dated in the pre-existence? This is why I didn't look him up once my eyes were opened.

Or maybe by the time you had opened your eyes it was too late!

[mercyngrace]

Or maybe by the time you had opened your eyes it was too late!

If we dated at all, I opened my eyes too late.

[mercyngrace]

Evidently there is. I queried big Z way back in post 128 about this, to which I never got a response.

It's kind of tough to say there is another way when the first principles of the gospel are faith and REPENTANCE....

[zerinus]

Zerinus, that only establishes Adam's incorruptible state in the garden. Once Adam fell, as Lehi said he must, if became when which is precisely why there is there is no path to salvation except through the redemption of Jesus Christ. The words you're referencing were uttered before death and hell entered the world.

I take back something I said. There is no "inevitability" about sin. No one has to sin. The fact that as a consequence of the Fall mankind has acquired a tendency to commit sin, does not mean that he has to sin, or that it is necessary for him to sin.

[zerinus]

If we dated at all, I opened my eyes too late.

In the preexistence we walked by sight, not by faith, remember?

[LeSellers]

Do you see any problem claiming this about an omniscient Being?

None whatsoever.

God's omniscience has no effect on our acts.

Lehi

[consiglieri]

It is: "If Adam puts forth his hand and partake of the fruit, we will provide a savior for him . . ."

Here's an interesting quotation for you:

"For they would not hearken unto his voice, nor believe on his Only Begotten Son, even him whom he declared should come in the meridian of time, who was prepared from before the foundation of the world." (Moses 5:57)

Sounds to me like the fall was a fait accompli.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri