Baptism for the dead.

[ELF1024]

...which explains why this does not pertain to animals, who share much of the same genetic material as well.

Or to Demons, since they are not part of Adam's lineage, but Lillth's (according to Jewish Myth).

[evangelist]

I don't understand why anyone would have an issue with "proxy" baptism or anything else.

Didn't Jesus suffer, by "proxy" for the sins of the world? Was the suffering "physical" or was it "symbolic". Or was it, in some ways, both?

The redemption pla was only done through Jesus not someone else. so how can someone get some else saved or baptized without even their will or permission??

[LeSellers]

how can someone get some else saved or baptized without even their will or permission??

We do not believe that anyone is saved without his permission, so the first part of your question is moot.

We do baptize each other for people who have not given their permission in advance, however, the baptism is without effect unless and until "the principal" accepts it. This means your second point is also moot.

Lehi

[evangelist]

We do not believe that anyone is saved without his permission, so the first part of your question is moot.

We do baptize each other for people who have not given their permission in advance, however, the baptism is without effect unless and until "the principal" accepts it. This means your second point is also moot.

Lehi

If it all moot how can you know if a baptism had any effects whatsoever, it might have been a waiste of time and just getting wet with no effect.

Just as well just take a bath!

one love

[evangelist]

If the living natural baptism which people do is not a must why is it a must or a reqirement for the dead?

the bible says after death the Judgement not a baptism , or a pugatory or some pit stop on another planet!

one love

[LeSellers]

If it all moot how can you know if a baptism had any effects whatsoever, it might have been a waiste of time and just getting wet with no effect.

That's not what I said, so your conclusion is erroneous. What I said was that your questions are moot, not the baptisms we do on behalf of the dead.

We don't need to know if any specific person accepts his proxy baptism. It's not our concern unless the person is a direct ancestor. Even then, it's there's nothing we can do to influence his choice. We can hope he'll accept, but once our part of the ceremony is complete, we have done our best, and can do nothing more.

Our concern is to do what God has commanded us.

Just as well just take a bath!

No. Don't you know that Peter has told us that a baptism is not the same thing as taking a bath: baptism saves us. In fact, without baptism, nothing can save us. There are other criteria, of course: faith, obedience, and without question, the Atonement through the Grace of Christ. But one must cross all the thresholds, not just one, no matter how often mentioned in scripture.

Lehi

[LeSellers]

If the living natural baptism which people do is not a must why is it a must or a reqirement for the dead?

That's a big, and unjustified "if", there. The fact is that all must be baptized, both living and dead.

the bible says after death the Judgement not a baptism , or a pugatory or some pit stop on another planet!

The Bible says a lot of things, few of which can be taken in isolation.

However, it does say that baptism is a requirement for salvation, and it says that God does not distinguish among people: if some must be baptized, all must be baptized.

Lehi

[divinenature]

The Book of Mormon says that the Atonement covers little children, unaccountable people and those without the law.

The church teaches that some are exempt from baptism. They are alive in Christ. Those who believe otherwise are warned that they are in danger of torment and hell.

Moroni 8:20 And he that saith that little children need baptism denieth the mercies of Christ, and setteth at naught the atonement of him and the power of his redemption.

21 Wo unto such, for they are in danger of death, hell, and an endless torment. I speak it boldly; God hath commanded me. Listen unto them and give heed, or they stand against you at the judgment-seat of Christ.

22 For behold that all little children are alive in Christ, and also all they that are without the law. For the power of redemption cometh on all them that have no law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and unto such baptism availeth nothing

[selek]

If it all moot how can you know if a baptism had any effects whatsoever, it might have been a waiste of time and just getting wet with no effect.

Just as well just take a bath!

one love

For the record, two things need to be clearly established.

First, it was your loaded and bigoted questions which were moot, not the proxy baptisms.

Second, we perform proxy baptisms for one primary reason beyond all others: because we were commanded to by our Lord, Savior, and Redeemer.

Whether or not the intended recipient accepts the ordinance is irrelevant. Obeying the Lord Jesus Christ is NEVER a "waste of time".

[NauvooSaint]

I have copies of letters between Pauline Hancock and RLDS prophet Israel A. Smith from the 1950s where they discuss the issue of Baptism for the Dead. Mrs. Hancock was the leader of a break-off group in Independence that disagreed with some RLDS beliefs. Pauline was trying to stick Baptism for the Dead upon the RLDS church as a belief, while Israel A. Smith repeatedly tried to disconnect the church from it for different reasons. Other than the traditional pamphlets that deal with reasons why the RLDS church don't agree with it being practiced now...Israel A. focused on the fact that the two letters that discuss baptism for the dead were not officially presented to the conference of the church or priesthood quorums to be canonized as scripture and therefore binding upon the church.

These two letters were just included by John Taylor in the 1845 edition of the D&C without conference approval and mistakenly included in RLDS editions later. It wasn't until the 1970s & still later in the 1990s that these were completely removed by the RLDS conferences in the RLDS edition.

Although I don't agree personally with baptism for the dead, I know Joseph Smith, Jr. taught it and he even has an article he published in the 'Times and Seasons' on the topic while editor. Upon further study of the baptism for the dead topic, it seems there is a difference between those who die without the law and those who are presented with the gospel and don't accept it by being baptized. Perhaps it's those who hear it and die without accepting it who may be in need of proxy baptism as they would not be included among those who are Christ's and accept the gospel in Spirit Prison and rise at the sounding of the second trump at the time of the first Resurrection.

In my opinion Baptism for the Dead is not much different than Infant Baptism. The theory that an infant can choose to accept the baptism & be confirmed later in life is similar to a dead person choosing to accept/reject a proxy baptism. In Joseph Smith's 'Times and Seasons' Vol. 3, No. 12, April, 15, 1842, pg. 759-761 article he talks of a group in the New Testament times called the Marchionites, that would have a living person hide under the bed of the dead while another would ask the dead person if they wanted baptism. The living representative would answer for the dead, "Yes." and would then be proxy baptized for them. I realize the LDS belief is not the same in that regard, but ordinances for the dead are literally 'Dead Works'.

The LDS didn't stop with just baptism for the dead, but later in St. George, UT temple they began introducing confirmation for the dead, ordination, sealing/marriage between two that are dead, etc. I understand the sacrifice of the Savior Jesus Christ was an act in our behalf of something we could not do for ourselves, but the acceptance of His eternal atonement is something each individual will be accountable for whether in mortality or in the hereafter.

Malachi 3:5-6 says:

"Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord: And he shall turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse."

This scripture is also mentioned by Joseph as one of the prophecies Joseph Smith was told in vision would shortly come to pass & did come to pass later in the Kirtland Temple. Elijah was one of the heavenly messengers who visited Joseph & Sidney Rigdon in the temple. LDS interpret this as evidence of ordinances for the dead & their need for geneology research etc. Many don't realize that the Lord specifically states what this means regarding the hearts of the fathers & children in a revelation to the church in the Doctrine and Covenants 95:3d-e (LDS D&C 98:15-17).

"for if ye will not abide in my covenant, ye are not worthy of me; therefore, renounce war and proclaim peace, and seek diligently to turn the hearts of their children to their fathers, and the hearts of the fathers to the children. And again, the hearts of the Jews unto the prophets; and the prophets unto the Jews, lest I come and smite the whole earth with a curse, and all flesh be consumed before me."

Here we see this doesn't relate to proxy work for the dead, but rather bringing the Jews to the knowledge of and promises made to the prophets of Israel and their people, etc.

D&C 85:28a-29b (LDS D&C 88:99-101) when speaking of the time of the First Resurrection of the Dead states:

"And after this another angel shall sound, which is the second trump; and then cometh the redemption of those who are Christ's at his coming; who have received their part in that prison which is prepared for them, that they might receive the gospel, and be judged according to men in the flesh."

(second resurrection)

" And again, another trump shall sound, which is the third trump; and then come the spirits of men who are to be judged, and are found under condemnation; And these are the rest of the dead; and they live not again until the thousand years are ended, neither again, until the end of the earth."

If those who have accepted Christ and the gospel in Spirit Prison are raised at the sounding of the second trump at the time of the first resurrection, why can't they then be baptized for themselves if necessary to do so? I have heard from different LDS sources the theory that the thousand years will be spent doing ordinances for the dead, however those who have accepted the gospel will already be raised from the dead and could do any needed work for themselves.

In LDS D&C 137:6-10 (not in RLDS edition) is a vision Joseph had of the Celestial kingdom where he saw his dead brother Alvin. I quote:

"And marveled how it was that he (Alvin) had obtained an inheritance in that kingdom, seeing that he had departed this life before the Lord had set his hand to gether Israel the second time, and had not been baptized for the remission of sins. Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God; Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom; For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts. And I also beheld that all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven."

Here we see there is no mentioning of baptism needed for those who die without the law and also that it is by the Lord judging all men according to THEIR works. They are also classed similarly with children who die before the age of accountability.

Moroni chapter 8 (same in LDS edition) is a wonderful chapter on this topic of children who die under the age of accountability, baptism of infants and even those who die without the law. I recommend folks read the short chapter for themselves. I'll quote a portion in relation to those who die without the law.

Moroni 8:25-29 LDS edition: "For behold that all little children are alive in Christ and also all they that are without the law. For the power of redemption cometh on all they that have no law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, can not repent; and unto such baptism availeth nothing. But it is mockery before God, denying the mercies of Christ, and the power of his Holy Spirit, and putting trust in dead works. Behold, my son, this thing ought not to be; for repentance is unto them that are under condemnation, and under the curse of a broken law. And the first-fruits of repentance is baptism, and baptism cometh by faith, unto the fulfilling the commandments; and the fulfilling the commandments bringeth remission of sins..."

Here we see such a simple understanding of the topic. These are some of the evidences on why Baptism for the Dead has problems outside of the traditional reasons RLDS don't practice it. Now if we can find some scriptures that support proxy baptism for those who die UNDER the law, then perhaps it has a place in the plan of salvation.

NauvooSaint

[CV75]

In my opinion Baptism for the Dead is not much different than Infant Baptism. The theory that an infant can choose to accept the baptism & be confirmed later in life is similar to a dead person choosing to accept/reject a proxy baptism.

There is a great difference: little children cannot sin and so the Atonement covers their physical death while they remain spiritually alive. The accountable dead have sinned and require the ordinance.

[NauvooSaint]

CV75,

As mentioned in my post, Alvin Smith was an example of your 'accountable dead' as he was the oldest sibling in the Smith family & died prior to baptism & the establishment of the 1830 church. Joseph's vision showed Alvin & others of similar situation in Celestial glory. (See the Lord's answer in LDS D&C 137:6-10)

Another interesting situation is regarding the repentant thief on the cross next to Christ. The Lord informed him that he would be with him in Paradise that day, but we are not informed if he had been previously baptized at some earlier time in his life. It's possible. The scriptures tell us that those consigned to Paradise take part in the First Resurrection. What is the LDS/Mormon belief on the status of your 'accountable dead' prior the Resurrections? Are they consigned to Spirit Prision/Hell or Paradise until When/IF they are proxy baptized?

[thesometimesaint]

divinenature:

There is no single work that can or will save us. It takes a combination of our faith and works coupled with the Atonement of Christ that makes Salvation possible.

Baptism is a necessary work for us that are accountable.

[NauvooSaint]

divinenature:

There is no single work that can or will save us. It takes a combination of our faith and works coupled with the Atonement of Christ that makes Salvation possible.

Baptism is a necessary work for us that are accountable.

I'd say it's the Grace/Atonement of Christ, our acceptance of that gift by True Faith & the Works/Fruits of Christ in our lives (not our works...His works in us as new creations).

[CV75]

Alvin Smith was an example of your 'accountable dead' as he was the oldest sibling in the Smith family & died prior to baptism & the establishment of the 1830 church. Joseph's vision showed Alvin & others of similar situation in Celestial glory. (See the Lord's answer in LDS D&C 137:6-10)

Another interesting situation is regarding the repentant thief on the cross next to Christ. The Lord informed him that he would be with him in Paradise that day, but we are not informed if he had been previously baptized at some earlier time in his life. It's possible. The scriptures tell us that those consigned to Paradise take part in the First Resurrection. What is the LDS/Mormon belief on the status of your 'accountable dead' prior the Resurrections? Are they consigned to Spirit Prision/Hell or Paradise until When/IF they are proxy baptized?

D& 136:6-10 does not preclude baptism for the dead (I Peter 4:6, D&C 138). Joseph saw in vision that Alvin would benefit from the temple ordinances in his behalf, as if they had already been received (Jarom 1:11; Mosiah 3:13 and 16:6). Alvin had entered Paradise. The Lord knew his heart and could make such a statement.

RE: the LDS/Mormon belief on the status of your 'accountable dead' prior the Resurrection, I refer you to Alma 40: 11-21 and also the following:

http://lds.org/study/topics/spirit-world?lang=eng

http://classic.scriptures.lds.org/en/bd/p/5 and http://lds.org/study/topics/hell?lang=eng

http://classic.scriptures.lds.org/en/bd/h/32 (paragraph 2) and http://lds.org/study/topics/paradise?lang=eng (paragraph 1)

My understanding is that people are consigned to spirit prison until they accept the Gospel, and that their entering paradise in not contingent upon being baptized by proxy. The terms hell, prison and paradise can take on similar or disparate meanings depending on context. For example, the righteous in paradise are also in "hell" in that they still physically dead; they are likewise in a "prison" without the blessing of yet being united with their resurrected body.

[thesometimesaint]

NauvooSaint:

I don't know about you, but I find it hard work to keep the commandments. Further we have scripture that says "In as much as men do good works they shall in no wise lose their reward."

[evangelist]

That's not what I said, so your conclusion is erroneous. What I said was that your questions are moot, not the baptisms we do on behalf of the dead.

We don't need to know if any specific person accepts his proxy baptism. It's not our concern unless the person is a direct ancestor. Even then, it's there's nothing we can do to influence his choice. We can hope he'll accept, but once our part of the ceremony is complete, we have done our best, and can do nothing more.

Our concern is to do what God has commanded us.

No. Don't you know that Peter has told us that a baptism is not the same thing as taking a bath: baptism saves us. In fact, without baptism, nothing can save us. There are other criteria, of course: faith, obedience, and without question, the Atonement through the Grace of Christ. But one must cross all the thresholds, not just one, no matter how often mentioned in scripture.

Lehi

Where in the bible say someone else has to get baptism for another person?

it is like saying I can get someoene else saved and born again through and by my religious works and self righteousness and give atonement to others and that is not biblical!

one love

[evangelist]

That's a big, and unjustified "if", there. The fact is that all must be baptized, both living and dead.

The Bible says a lot of things, few of which can be taken in isolation.

However, it does say that baptism is a requirement for salvation, and it says that God does not distinguish among people: if some must be baptized, all must be baptized.

Lehi

Jesus is require for salvation but getting wet is just an act of a obedient act like reading the bible , praying, going to church and etc.

It is something we should do in a christian walk after you are saved, and have recieved salvation before any getting wet or baptized.

one love

[thesometimesaint]

evangelist:

The Bible doesn't say you have to get baptized for another person. But it does leave that as an option for those that have already passed on.

See http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_BaptDead.shtml

[evangelist]

evangelist:

The Bible doesn't say you have to get baptized for another person. But it does leave that as an option for those that have already passed on.

See http://www.jefflinds..._BaptDead.shtml

What did the Corithians realy practice in their pagan temples??

Was baptism to the dead a pagan ritual in the temples of corithians?

Was Paul for the baptism of the dead and did Paul also do such a tradition as being so called obedeint?

[russianwolfe]

What did the Corithians realy practice in their pagan temples??

Was baptism to the dead a pagan ritual in the temples of corithians?

Was Paul for the baptism of the dead and did Paul also do such a tradition as being so called obedeint?

[LeSellers]

Where in the bible say someone else has to get baptism for another person?

It does not say that any one must be baptized for someone else. I can't help it if the Bible lacks certain details. That's why we need a prophet

[LeSellers]

Jesus is require for salvation but getting wet is just an act of a obedient act like reading the bible , praying, going to church and etc.

So you're claiming that Jesus will save the disobedient?! That is not biblical. If baptism is obedience, and some fail to be baptized, they will not be saved.

But you have not even begun to address the issue of Peter's saying that water baptism "doth now also save us." His words, not mine.

It is something we should do in a christian walk after you are saved, and have recieved salvation before any getting wet or baptized.

That's not biblical. It's an invention of the reformers, who, knowing they had no Priesthood (or even priesthood) decided that they needed to ignore all the ceremonies of the past, including baptism, which is a requirement for salvation.

Lehi

[Zakuska]

What did the Corithians realy practice in their pagan temples??

Was baptism to the dead a pagan ritual in the temples of corithians?

Was Paul for the baptism of the dead and did Paul also do such a tradition as being so called obedeint?

[USU78]