Vance Posted January 5, 2011 Posted January 5, 2011 Not recognized by whom? God? Sure doesn't say that in the Biblical text.Is that why Paul had to RE-baptize believers? (see Act 19:1-7)
thesometimesaint Posted January 5, 2011 Posted January 5, 2011 LifeOnaPlate:She was a brave soul. I value her testimony and her life.
Hughes Posted January 5, 2011 Posted January 5, 2011 Not recognized by whom? God? Sure doesn't say that in the Biblical text.Perhaps not, Hughes, but we LDS "believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and that He will yet reveal many great and important truths pertaining to the Kingdom of God". This includes the revelation that baptism is only valid when performed by proper authority, and that this authority is held only by the prophet of the LDS Church, who is authorised to delegate that authority.Then the bible and the BoM contradict each other at that point. For we have one high priest, whom we all have access to. "For who so ever will... " can come. God is always ready to forgive.
Vance Posted January 5, 2011 Posted January 5, 2011 Then the bible and the BoM contradict each other at that point.You are going to have to provide some support for this assertion. For we have one high priest, whom we all have access to.True, but irrelevant. "For who so ever will... " can come. God is always ready to forgive.True, but irrelevant.You need to make the connection, simply asserting it won't do. Also you have yet to address Act 19:1-7 where Paul RE-baptized believers.
ElfLord Posted January 5, 2011 Posted January 5, 2011 Then the bible and the BoM contradict each other at that point. For we have one high priest, whom we all have access to. "For who so ever will... " can come. God is always ready to forgive.If there is "one" High Priest... why in the world is he part of an "order"?Hebrews 5:6As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.And why are we being trained to offer sacrifices?1 Peter 2:5Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
Hughes Posted January 5, 2011 Posted January 5, 2011 Is that why Paul had to RE-baptize believers? (see Act 19:1-7)As the text states, "5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus." It had nothing to do with authority, but in whom they believed. Since we as believers are all priests before God, we all have the authority to baptize those who put their trust in Christ for salvation (1 Peter 2:5-9).Further, there are now no earthly mediators between God and man as existed in the Old Testament priesthood (1 Timothy 2:5).
Hughes Posted January 5, 2011 Posted January 5, 2011 If there is "one" High Priest... why in the world is he part of an "order"?Hebrews 5:6As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.And why are we being trained to offer sacrifices?1 Peter 2:5Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.Why is Jesus apart of the order of Melchisedec? To fulfill the law. Why are we being trained? Because we are all apart of the royal priesthood. No longer is the earthly order of Melchisedec applicable. Only the priesthood that is acceptable to God, through Christ in the Spirit.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted January 5, 2011 Posted January 5, 2011 No longer is the earthly order of Melchisedec applicable. Only the priesthood that is acceptable to God, through Christ in the Spirit.This is false and is no were taught in the bible.
ElfLord Posted January 5, 2011 Posted January 5, 2011 Why is Jesus apart of the order of Melchisedec? To fulfill the law. Why are we being trained? Because we are all apart of the royal priesthood. No longer is the earthly order of Melchisedec applicable. Only the priesthood that is acceptable to God, through Christ in the Spirit.If the Earthly order is no longer applicable. Then God lied to Phinehas.Num 2511 Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, hath turned my wrath away from the children of Israel, while he was zealous for my sake among them, that I consumed not the children of Israel in my jealousy.12 Wherefore say, Behold, I give unto him my covenant of peace:13 And he shall have it, and his seed after him, even the covenant of an everlasting priesthood; because he was zealous for his God, and made an atonement for the children of Israel.Hmmm.... Yet another verse proclaiming the eternal nature of the Aaronic Priesthood!
ELF1024 Posted January 5, 2011 Posted January 5, 2011 Why do we need Prophets?It would seem that the need for Prophets today would be self evident.Nuclear Obliteration/Mutually Assured Destruction9/11Terrorist Attacks since 9/11Corrosion of the FamilyStandards of behavior loweringWars and Rumors of WarsThe expectation of Christ's returnWe need Prophets today just as much if not more than the people at the time of Moses.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted January 5, 2011 Posted January 5, 2011 I'm "Josh", Randy's friend. Welcome.Defining this central message of the Old Testament is the key to our interpretive process because without a proper understanding of Scripture we do not have access to truly loving and knowing the real Jesus.So, how did we get these scriptures? My relationship with Jesus is very personalThat is great, so is mine and all of the LDS people that I know., yes, there are chruch leaders that have a certain authority over me, And who gave them this authority? Remember that a person must be called of God as was Aaron.yes there are people to whome God gives the gift of prophecy, but to say that the lds church has THE mouthpiece of God to the worldI think there is an underlying issue with what you are talking about. There is prochecy such as what is talked about in Revelations, that the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. Then you have prophecy such as a Moses that was a leader and was given authority over God's people by God. The two types of prophets are not the same. - after pentecost and the Holy Spirit entered the hearts and minds of believers - And no were in scripture does it say that they were all prophets at that time. is an undo-ing of a great part of the life, work and purpose of Jesus Christ.You assertion is most lacking.
Hughes Posted January 5, 2011 Posted January 5, 2011 This is false and is no were taught in the bible.There is only one mediator between God and man. Jesus Christ. We no longer require priests to offer sacrifices, as recorded in Matthew 27:51 the veil was torn from the top. We, all as priests have direct access to God.
Hughes Posted January 5, 2011 Posted January 5, 2011 If the Earthly order is no longer applicable. Then God lied to Phinehas.Num 2511 Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, hath turned my wrath away from the children of Israel, while he was zealous for my sake among them, that I consumed not the children of Israel in my jealousy.12 Wherefore say, Behold, I give unto him my covenant of peace:13 And he shall have it, and his seed after him, even the covenant of an everlasting priesthood; because he was zealous for his God, and made an atonement for the children of Israel.Hmmm.... Yet another verse proclaiming the eternal nature of the Aaronic Priesthood! I agree, either God lied or Joseph did. Since the BoM is all based on an untestable and uncorroborated claim of Joseph Smith that it was translated, I don't think God lied.
thesometimesaint Posted January 5, 2011 Posted January 5, 2011 Hughes:What do you do with Ephesians 4:11-14:11. And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12. For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13. Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ: 14. That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
ELF1024 Posted January 5, 2011 Posted January 5, 2011 If the Earthly order is no longer applicable. Then God lied to Phinehas.Num 2511 Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, hath turned my wrath away from the children of Israel, while he was zealous for my sake among them, that I consumed not the children of Israel in my jealousy.12 Wherefore say, Behold, I give unto him my covenant of peace:13 And he shall have it, and his seed after him, even the covenant of an everlasting priesthood; because he was zealous for his God, and made an atonement for the children of Israel.Hmmm.... Yet another verse proclaiming the eternal nature of the Aaronic Priesthood!I agree, either God lied or Joseph did. Since the BoM is all based on an untestable and uncorroborated claim of Joseph Smith that it was translated, I don't think God lied.CFR where Joseph Smith Jr. had anything to do with the Book of Numbers.
Vance Posted January 5, 2011 Posted January 5, 2011 As the text states, "5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus." It had nothing to do with authority, but in whom they believed. You need to read it again, apparently."2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?"Paul identifies them as BELIEVERS and disciples (see verse 1)!!!!!!"And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost."Paul learns here that the person that baptized them didn't have authority because an authorized person would have KNOWN about the Holy Ghost coming after proper baptism."3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted January 5, 2011 Posted January 5, 2011 There is only one mediator between God and man. Jesus Christ. We no longer require priests to offer sacrifices, as recorded in Matthew 27:51 the veil was torn from the top. We, all as priests have direct access to God.This is what you claimedNo longer is the earthly order of Melchisedec applicable. Only the priesthood that is acceptable to God, through Christ in the Spirit.This is false, you rebutted with nothing that addresses your assertion.The "earthly order of Melchisedec applicable" no longer being needed is no were taught in the bible.No were does the bible teach that all believers are priests. This appears to be another bald assertion that is no were taught in the bible.And being a preist does not = "direct access to God". That is not what being a priest means. It is true that certain duties of a priest changes after Christ.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted January 5, 2011 Posted January 5, 2011 You need to read it again, apparently."2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?"Paul identifies them as BELIEVERS and disciples (see verse 1)!!!!!!"And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost."Paul learns here that the person that baptized them didn't have authority because an authorized person would have KNOWN about the Holy Ghost coming after proper baptism."3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John
ELF1024 Posted January 5, 2011 Posted January 5, 2011 There is only one mediator between God and man. Jesus Christ. We no longer require priests to offer sacrifices, as recorded in Matthew 27:51 the veil was torn from the top. We, all as priests have direct access to God.Matthew 27:50-53 50
Vance Posted January 5, 2011 Posted January 5, 2011 Exactly how did you get that intrepretation out of these verses?He doesn't!He PUTS it in, not gets it out. It takes a large sledge hammer to force it though.
Hughes Posted January 5, 2011 Posted January 5, 2011 Hughes:What do you do with Ephesians 4:11-14:11. And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12. For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13. Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ: 14. That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;All believers aren't prophets, but all believers are apart of the royal priesthood, as Peter stated.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted January 5, 2011 Posted January 5, 2011 All believers aren't prophets, but all believers are apart of the royal priesthood, as Peter stated.Being part of "a royal priesthood" means what exactly?Can you even define that?
Hughes Posted January 5, 2011 Posted January 5, 2011 CFR where Joseph Smith Jr. had anything to do with the Book of Numbers.You are correct Joseph Smith didn't have anything to do with Numbers, but the idea that the earthly priesthood was eternal. In essence, the priesthood bestowed on all believers fulfills this idea, but it couldn't be both earthly and eternal. IF it's in fact eternal then it's spiritual.
Obiwan Posted January 5, 2011 Posted January 5, 2011 For the cultural context of the priesthood ban, see in BYU Studies vol 44 n 1 (2005) Book reviews by Stirling Adams for The Curse of Ham: Race and Slavery in Early Judaism, Christianity, and Islam by David M Goldberg and Noah
thesometimesaint Posted January 5, 2011 Posted January 5, 2011 Hughes:There is no such thing as the Priesthood of all believers. That is strictly a Protestantism. Somethings that are bound on earth can be bound in the eternities.
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