The Church of Jesus Christ of Early-Day Saints

[Tribunal]

I was reading the New Testament the other day and noticed that in many ways Saul/Paul is very similar to Joseph Smith. Both 'claimed' to have seen and heard God in a vision. Both 'established' the doctrine of the Church through Epistles or the Doctrine of Covenants.

We already know what the Church looks like without the Book of Mormon (and D&C), but what would the Church look like without Paul and the inspiration he received, and the Epistles with the various congregations? I hear about the conflict between LDS apostles after the death of Joseph Smith, but wasn't there conflict after the death of Jesus between Simon Peter, James, and Paul? And does it require just as much faith to believe in Paul, and the picture he paints of the Church, as it does with Joseph Smith, and the picture he paints?

Finally, those who are critical of Mormons and claim that Mormons are not Christian, could Pauline Christians also be considered not Christian if you applied the same standards against Paul as is done with Joseph Smith?

[Uncle Dale]

I was reading the New Testament the other day and noticed that in many ways Saul/Paul is very similar to Joseph Smith. Both 'claimed' to have seen and heard God in a vision. Both 'established' the doctrine of the Church through Epistles or the Doctrine of Covenants.

We already know what the Church looks like without the Book of Mormon (and D&C), but what would the Church look like without Paul and the inspiration he received, and the Epistles with the various congregations? I hear about the conflict between LDS apostles after the death of Joseph Smith, but wasn't there conflict after the death of Jesus between Simon Peter, James, and Paul? And does it require just as much faith to believe in Paul, and the picture he paints of the Church, as it does with Joseph Smith, and the picture he paints?

Finally, those who are critical of Mormons and claim that Mormons are not Christian, could Pauline Christians also be considered not Christian if you applied the same standards against Paul as is done with Joseph Smith?

Odd -- that Paul seems to be one of the few biblical figures

who never appeared to Brother Joseph.

As for the Jesus-followers before Paul, my guess is that they

would have spoken and acted in much the same manner as what

we see in the "Q-sayings" of Luke and Matthew. Perhaps they

would have also been somewhat like the Jesus-followers we

discern in the Gospel of Thomas --- but probably without all

of that text's gnostic doctrines.

Probably there were individual, separate groups of Jesus-followers,

who were in touch with various apostles -- or, perhaps with no

apostles at all. They probably would have fellowshiped the remaining

disciples of John the Baptist -- would have looked and acted a

lot like Galilean Jews.

UD

[Anakin7]

Odd -- that Paul seems to be one of the few biblical figures

who never appeared to Brother Joseph.

As for the Jesus-followers before Paul, my guess is that they

would have spoken and acted in much the same manner as what

we see in the "Q-sayings" of Luke and Matthew. Perhaps they

would have also been somewhat like the Jesus-followers we

discern in the Gospel of Thomas --- but probably without all

of that text's gnostic doctrines.

Probably there were individual, separate groups of Jesus-followers,

who were in touch with various apostles -- or, perhaps with no

apostles at all. They probably would have fellowshiped the remaining

disciples of John the Baptist -- would have looked and acted a

lot like Galilean Jews.

UD

Paul may have appeared to Joseph Smith Jr. but was not recorded.

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

[LeSellers]

Paul may have appeared to Joseph Smith Jr. but was not recorded.

We don't have the record, but we do have good reason to conclude that he did see Paul: he described him, including his voice.

January 5, 1841. "At the organization of a school of instruction. Description of Paul: He is about five feet high; very dark hair; dark complexion; dark skin; large Roman nose; sharp face; small black eyes, penetrating as eternity; round shoulders; a whining voice, except when elevated, and then it almost resembled the roaring of a lion. He was a good orator, active and diligent, always employing himself in doing good to his fellow man."

Franklin D. Richards and James A. Little, Compendium of the Doctrines of the Gospel, p.286 - 287

Lehi

[Joseph Antley]

I've always had an issue with Paul's vision and missionary adventures in that it seems to against the revealed order of things. There were already Twelve Apostles, and Paul was out gallivanting without their knowledge. Who gave Paul his priesthood authority? No wonder Peter and him didn't get along.

[Tribunal]

I've always had an issue with Paul's vision and missionary adventures in that it seems to against the revealed order of things. There were already Twelve Apostles, and Paul was out gallivanting without their knowledge. Who gave Paul his priesthood authority? No wonder Peter and him didn't get along.

Exactly! And how much of the Christian churches today are based on the teachings of Paul? Doesn't it require just as much faith to believe in what Paul teaches about Christianity as it does with Joseph Smith and what he teaches about the Restored Gospel? And what would Christian churches look like if it weren't for the involvement of Paul?

[Muc'ul Ajwalil]

I've always had an issue with Paul's vision and missionary adventures in that it seems to against the revealed order of things. There were already Twelve Apostles, and Paul was out gallivanting without their knowledge. Who gave Paul his priesthood authority? No wonder Peter and him didn't get along.

When I look in the Book of Acts, I see a period of about 15 years from Paul's vision on the road to Damascus, to his calling in the Apostleship along with Barnabas.

People can have pretty interesting visions and dreams before their calling as apostle or prophet. What I see here, is that Paul once converted did seek out the Apostles, instead of trying to found his own ministry. He didn't act until acted upon by the Lord.

[Tribunal]

He didn't act until acted upon by the Lord.

...according to Paul. Just like Joseph Smith didn't act until acted upon by the Lord, according to Joseph Smith.

[Calm]

I've always had an issue with Paul's vision and missionary adventures in that it seems to against the revealed order of things. There were already Twelve Apostles, and Paul was out gallivanting without their knowledge.

Are you sure about the "without their knowledge"? Seems to me there is much parallel in his account and in the account of the sons of Mosiah.

[Lightbearer]

There are some similarities between Paul and Joseph, in fact Joseph recognized this and commented on it himself:

(JS-History 1:24-25) "However, it was nevertheless a fact that I had beheld a vision. I have thought since, that I felt much like Paul, when he made his defense before King Agrippa, and related the account of the vision he had when he saw a light, and heard a voice; but still there were but few who believed him; some said he was dishonest, others said he was mad; and he was ridiculed and reviled. But all this did not destroy the reality of his vision. He had seen a vision, he knew he had, and all the persecution under heaven could not make it otherwise; and though they should persecute him unto death, yet he knew, and would know to his latest breath, that he had both seen a light and heard a voice speaking unto him, and all the world could not make him think or believe otherwise. So it was with me. I had actually seen a light, and in the midst of that light I saw two Personages, and they did in reality speak to me; and though I was hated and persecuted for saying that I had seen a vision, yet it was true; and while they were persecuting me, reviling me, and speaking all manner of evil against me falsely for so saying, I was led to say in my heart: Why persecute me for telling the truth? I have actually seen a vision; and who am I that I can withstand God, or why does the world think to make me deny what I have actually seen? For I had seen a vision; I knew it, and I knew that God knew it, and I could not deny it, neither dared I do it; at least I knew that by so doing I would offend God, and come under condemnation."

There were some differences, Paul had persecuted the Church and had "Alma-like" been called on it, and He repented and spent the remainder of his life trying to undo the damage he had caused. Paul was a strict Pharasee before his conversion, God in His wisdom saw Paul as a major player in sending the Gospel to the gentiles, and with his background he was the right man for this task. In fact he did have a dispute with Peter over circumcision a major doctrinal problem in the early Church, while Peter as the Prophet did have the revelation opening the preaching to the gentiles, yet it took the calling of Paul to move this work forward, it was not a new dispensation but it was a major shift in policy (much as the 1978 revelation on the priesthood caused a turning point in the preaching of the Gospel in the Latter-day church). But there is no evidence that Paul started his own church or ministry independent from that of the rest of the Twelve. The truth is the record we have is rather sketchy and there surely is more to it than we have on record. But I do not believe Paul preached any other Gospel than Peter preached, yet there were elements of apostacy in the Church in that early time as evidenced by Paul and Peter's epistles.