To non-LDS Christians: What beliefs can keep one from Salvation?

[David T]

This is a question that was initially directed towards Coolrok7 on a thread for which this discussion would be off topic, but I open it to all non-LDS Christians.

I would like to specifically ask LDS members to refrain from mocking or insulting the non-LDS participants or their views in this thread. If I see it, I will ask the moderators to remove you from the thread. I believe this can be a fruitful discussion without resorting to base behavior, victory dances, and 'telling off'. If you don't, and can't restrain yourself, you're not welcome here in this thread.

So, the question again: What specific doctrinal points you feel one must believe (or not believe) to have "Biblical Salvation".?

Doing a search of the New Testament using the terms 'believe' and 'saved' does not bring up any elements LDS do not believe, so I'm curious as to what differences are severe enough that, even though we believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, our savior, and redeemer, and that salvation comes through His grace, God would withhold Justification because we were 'misled' into sincerely believing some additional beliefs.

I'm not looking for general warnings of those who believe false prophets. I'm looking for your understanding of, and the citation of, the specific Biblical references for:

1. What one must believe to be saved

2. What one will be damned for if they do believe, even when they believe all of that which is in #1 - With a specific and clear biblical statement that one will forfeit their salvation for believing it.

[SilverKnight]

I can help you out with this one.

I had a conversation with Hick Preacher (an ex LDS Evangelical) on this very topic in another thread. I specifically probed him about which 'incorrect" mormon beliefs might threaten my salvation. He hedged and did not elaborate on which specific beliefs would disqualify me from salvation, but I gathered that believing God to be an exalted human male (from another planet) is highest on the heresy list.

Here are Hick Preacher's responses, which seem to me to be those of a fairly reasonable, but biblically-devout Evangelical Christian:

Condemnation is certainly for those who after hearing the way of salvation, overtly rebel against it. This is evident by the way Jesus spoke giving warnings in his confrontations with those who outwardly opposed Him during His Earthly Ministry.

Not all Mormons believe the same things about God and/or Gods. One thing is certain, If you harden you heart against Christ and overtly rebel against God for the sake of pleasing men, there will be consequences of some sort.

It is important to be loyal to Christ and NOT only to a Church organization.

A person who is able to think, access information, and make determinations about the true nature of God, he or she then needs to do so, and take action to change if needed, or face consequences the possibility of following a false God.

95% or More of a Mormon's religious life has nothing to do with the odd teachings that God the Father had to first be a mortal man off on some other planet, and so forth. A Mormon's life instead revolves around family and the Ward activities. The beliefs related to typical Ward activities are a fairly close analog to Biblical Christianity. I doubt that anyone with the attitude of most Mormons whose lives revolve around a Ward unit will be condemned for for such things as seen in Sacrament meetings.

I will say that if God sends messengers, to warn Mormons about some of its higher teachings of its inner circles, no matter how flawed the messenger if the messenger is ignored, and shunned there could potentially be eternal consequences for certain Mormons. God will be the judge on that.

[3DOP]

This is a question that was initially directed towards Coolrok7 on a thread for which this discussion would be off topic, but I open it to all non-LDS Christians.

I would like to specifically ask LDS members to refrain from mocking or insulting the non-LDS participants or their views in this thread. If I see it, I will ask the moderators to remove you from the thread. I believe this can be a fruitful discussion without resorting to base behavior, victory dances, and 'telling off'. If you don't, and can't restrain yourself, you're not welcome here in this thread.

So, the question again: What specific doctrinal points you feel one must believe (or not believe) to have "Biblical Salvation".?

Doing a search of the New Testament using the terms 'believe' and 'saved' does not bring up any elements LDS do not believe, so I'm curious as to what differences are severe enough that, even though we believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, our savior, and redeemer, and that salvation comes through His grace, God would withhold Justification because we were 'misled' into sincerely believing some additional beliefs.

I'm not looking for general warnings of those who believe false prophets. I'm looking for your understanding of, and the citation of, the specific Biblical references for:

1. What one must believe to be saved

2. What one will be damned for if they do believe, even when they believe all of that which is in #1 - With a specific and clear biblical statement that one will forfeit their salvation for believing it.

According to the Catholic faith one is not saved according to what one profess to believe. We are saved or not according to what we are. It surely is a disadvantage to believe a bunch of wrong things, but we don't go to Hell for making innocent mistakes about hard questions. "Biblical Salvation" denies that mere belief is salvific, for the devils believe. You can believe all the right things and not be saved. You can believe a lot of wrong things and be saved. I am not sure that total unbelief is always necessarily incompatible with salvation.

It would be difficult to find how one could be excused for atheism but Silver Knight has been instructing me on how persuasive rational arguments are indeed making people conclude there is no God in our day. Maybe the passage I am citing below can be interpreted in a different historical context than our own where more excuses have developed? I will not assume that all atheists go to Hell. But one like me hates to deny the faith of a simple soul who believes in a Creator because the sky is beautiful and things grow and the world just seems to shout the glory of God. I think some of us have exchanged simplicity for big long words and arguments between dead brilliant guys who believe in God who most can't understand anyway, and living brilliant guys who most can't understand and don't believe in God. So I won't say it is an absolute essential to salvation, but St. Paul seems to speak pretty harshly against those who deny God the Creator:

For the invisible things of him, from the creation of the world, are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made; his eternal power also, and divinity: so that they are inexcusable.

---Romans 1:20

[BookofMormonLuvr]

I am a non-LDS Christian that believes in the Book of Mormon...

- The belief that you don't have to follow Christ into the waters of baptism after you have been taught the commandment.

- The belief that you can sin all you want, but since you confessed Jesus' name once when you were 10 you are saved.

[TAO]

- The belief that you don't have to follow Christ into the waters of baptism after you have been taught the commandment.

Erm... this isn't our doctrine...

- The belief that you can sin all you want, but since you confessed Jesus' name once when you were 10 you are saved.

As someone who didn't fully come to realize the world till they were in their 8th grade, I understand.

However, as someone who also has sinned alot, and realized that it's nigh impossible to go 'cold turkey', I also realize that you can't just 'sin all you want'.... the same spirit exists in you, and will compel you to do the same things. In other words, persay, though the sins may drop, the temptations do not, and temptations are far more dangerous in my view.

Oh also... tis 8, not 10.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Erm... this isn't our doctrine...

As someone who didn't fully come to realize the world till they were in their 8th grade, I understand.

However, as someone who also has sinned alot, and realized that it's nigh impossible to go 'cold turkey', I also realize that you can't just 'sin all you want'.... the same spirit exists in you, and will compel you to do the same things. In other words, persay, though the sins may drop, the temptations do not, and temptations are far more dangerous in my view.

Oh also... tis 8, not 10.

I didn't realize I was supposed to detail LDS beliefs that keep you from Salvation, I thought it was beliefs in general that keep you from salvation.

I can't think of a particular LDS belief that would keep you from salvation.

[Koloborator]

According to the Catholic faith one is not saved according to what one profess to believe. We are saved or not according to what we are. It surely is a disadvantage to believe a bunch of wrong things, but we don't go to Hell for making innocent mistakes about hard questions. "Biblical Salvation" denies that mere belief is salvific, for the devils believe. You can believe all the right things and not be saved. You can believe a lot of wrong things and be saved. I am not sure that total unbelief is always necessarily incompatible with salvation.

It would be difficult to find how one could be excused for atheism but Silver Knight has been instructing me on how persuasive rational arguments are indeed making people conclude there is no God in our day. Maybe the passage I am citing below can be interpreted in a different historical context than our own where more excuses have developed? I will not assume that all atheists go to Hell. But one like me hates to deny the faith of a simple soul who believes in a Creator because the sky is beautiful and things grow and the world just seems to shout the glory of God. I think some of us have exchanged simplicity for big long words and arguments between dead brilliant guys who believe in God who most can't understand anyway, and living brilliant guys who most can't understand and don't believe in God. So I won't say it is an absolute essential to salvation, but St. Paul seems to speak pretty harshly against those who deny God the Creator:---Romans 1:20

Well said 3DOP. As an elaboration on what we Catholics believe, there is simply no way that one person can determine whether another person is not going to go to heaven. God wants to save everyone, and we believe he will go to great lengths to give everyone the opportunity to accept His grace.

Some of the more popular Catholic devotions originate with Saint Faustina Kowalska, a Polish nun who had several revelations during the 1930s. One of her revelations, which I've heard cited by priests, is that Christ repeatedly calls everyone at the moment of death, giving even the most hardened sinners an opportunity to accept salvation.

[cksalmon]

This is a question that was initially directed towards Coolrok7 on a thread for which this discussion would be off topic, but I open it to all non-LDS Christians.

I would like to specifically ask LDS members to refrain from mocking or insulting the non-LDS participants or their views in this thread. If I see it, I will ask the moderators to remove you from the thread. I believe this can be a fruitful discussion without resorting to base behavior, victory dances, and 'telling off'. If you don't, and can't restrain yourself, you're not welcome here in this thread.

So, the question again: What specific doctrinal points you feel one must believe (or not believe) to have "Biblical Salvation".?

Doing a search of the New Testament using the terms 'believe' and 'saved' does not bring up any elements LDS do not believe, so I'm curious as to what differences are severe enough that, even though we believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, our savior, and redeemer, and that salvation comes through His grace, God would withhold Justification because we were 'misled' into sincerely believing some additional beliefs.

I'm not looking for general warnings of those who believe false prophets. I'm looking for your understanding of, and the citation of, the specific Biblical references for:

1. What one must believe to be saved

2. What one will be damned for if they do believe, even when they believe all of that which is in #1 - With a specific and clear biblical statement that one will forfeit their salvation for believing it.

Hi nackhadlow--

I appreciate the tenor of your inquiry.

A relevant counter-question may be, "What specific doctrinal points [do] you feel one must believe (or not believe) to be saved in the Celestial Kingdom?"

Your question seems to be about arguing a coherent soteriology as adjudicated by citations to the Bible, alone.

[TAO]

A relevant counter-question may be, "What specific doctrinal points [do] you feel one must believe (or not believe) to be saved in the Celestial Kingdom?"

The requirements for salvation are quite different compared to the ones for the Celestial Kingdom, if I here my non-LDS friends describe it right.

Your question seems to be about arguing a coherent soteriology as adjudicated by citations to the Bible, alone.

Uh yah.... that's partly why he's asking - because people are not clear as to what they believe 'damns to hell', and why it does so. Nobody lays it out, it's very vague.

[saemo]

The requirements for salvation are quite different compared to the ones for the Celestial Kingdom, if I here my non-LDS friends describe it right.

Venturing into salvation vs exaltation, Catholics make no distinction between the requirements for salvation compared to theosis. Theosis is a result of God's saving grace, they go together and are not separated.

[cksalmon]

The requirements for salvation are quite different compared to the ones for the Celestial Kingdom, if I here my non-LDS friends describe it right.

The requirements for ultimate salvation in the Celestial Kingdom do seem to be different from the requirements for ultimate salvation, say, in so-called Protestantism or Roman Catholicism, yes. That's rather my point.

You make a distinction here between "salvation" more generally conceived and "salvation in the Celestial Kingdom." Of course, I recognize no such distinction, personally. (Nor, do I affirm the existence of the three kingdoms.) So, perhaps you feel the force of my question, which was: "What specific doctrinal points [do] you feel one must believe (or not believe) to be saved in the Celestial Kingdom?"

[David T]

The requirements for salvation are quite different compared to the ones for the Celestial Kingdom, if I here my non-LDS friends describe it right.

TAO, please see this thread. What we understand as Non-exalted Salvation in the Celestial Kingdom is generally equivalent to the non-LDS view of Salvation. But I do not want this thread to be a discussion of that. I specifically want the specific questions I asked discussed in this thread.

[David T]

The requirements for ultimate salvation in the Celestial Kingdom do seem to be different from the requirements for ultimate salvation, say, in so-called Protestantism or Roman Catholicism, yes. That's rather my point.

You make a distinction here between "salvation" more generally conceived and "salvation in the Celestial Kingdom." Of course, I recognize no such distinction, personally.

I consider what LDS understand as Salvation in the Celestial Kingdom as equivalent to General Salvation in most non-LDS views. Exaltation is indeed a different concept that goes beyond this.

So, perhaps you feel the force of my question, which was: "What specific doctrinal points [do] you feel one must believe (or not believe) to be saved in the Celestial Kingdom?"

That is a different discussion. I would like to keep this thread focused on discussing the specific questions I posed in the OP, directed to non-Mormon Christians.

[TAO]

TAO, please see this thread. What we understand as Non-exalted Salvation in the Celestial Kingdom is generally equivalent to the non-LDS view of Salvation. But I do not want this thread to be a discussion of that. I specifically want the specific questions I asked discussed in this thread.

Yah, I know, that's why I wasn't responding to the question, don't worry, I will not derail the thread =).

[David T]

According to the Catholic faith one is not saved according to what one profess to believe. We are saved or not according to what we are. It surely is a disadvantage to believe a bunch of wrong things, but we don't go to Hell for making innocent mistakes about hard questions. "Biblical Salvation" denies that mere belief is salvific, for the devils believe. You can believe all the right things and not be saved. You can believe a lot of wrong things and be saved. I am not sure that total unbelief is always necessarily incompatible with salvation.

It would be difficult to find how one could be excused for atheism but Silver Knight has been instructing me on how persuasive rational arguments are indeed making people conclude there is no God in our day. Maybe the passage I am citing below can be interpreted in a different historical context than our own where more excuses have developed? I will not assume that all atheists go to Hell. But one like me hates to deny the faith of a simple soul who believes in a Creator because the sky is beautiful and things grow and the world just seems to shout the glory of God. I think some of us have exchanged simplicity for big long words and arguments between dead brilliant guys who believe in God who most can't understand anyway, and living brilliant guys who most can't understand and don't believe in God. So I won't say it is an absolute essential to salvation, but St. Paul seems to speak pretty harshly against those who deny God the Creator:---Romans 1:20

Well said 3DOP. As an elaboration on what we Catholics believe, there is simply no way that one person can determine whether another person is not going to go to heaven. God wants to save everyone, and we believe he will go to great lengths to give everyone the opportunity to accept His grace.

Some of the more popular Catholic devotions originate with Saint Faustina Kowalska, a Polish nun who had several revelations during the 1930s. One of her revelations, which I've heard cited by priests, is that Christ repeatedly calls everyone at the moment of death, giving even the most hardened sinners an opportunity to accept salvation.

I want thank both of you for your contributions on the Catholic side. I very much appreciate the insight.

Are there any Protestants/Evangelicals who would be willing to respond? It is from this group that I often hear that certain beliefs we have disqualify us for Salvation. Because these groups generally profess Sola Scriptura, I specifically would like to see their clear Biblical precedent presented.

[SilverKnight]

A relevant counter-question may be, "What specific doctrinal points [do] you feel one must believe (or not believe) to be saved in the Celestial Kingdom?"

In this life? Nothing.

Mormon belief allows for the eventual salvation/exaltation of avowed atheists.

The fate of the unevangelized is not an issue for LDS.

[David T]

[mistake]

[joeyday]

Are there any Protestants/Evangelicals who would be willing to respond? It is from this group that I often hear that certain beliefs we have disqualify us for Salvation. Because these groups generally profess Sola Scriptura, I specifically would like to see their clear Biblical precedent presented.

I'm Reformed and therefore a subscriber to the Solas of the Reformation including Sola Scriptura. This is my first post here and I'm very sorry it's such a long one. Please go easy on me.

If I may say, I think you're asking the question from the wrong angle. I don't hold to the idea that our beliefs or doctrines, by themselves, get us into or keep us out of heaven. As others have already said (and I find it sort of strange

[Hick Preacher]

It seems this thread wants non-LDS to describe the terms of salvation.

Off the cuff understanding of things:

To be saved we must be obedient to God, not man. We must take the grace that God offers us and use that grace to work out our salvation.

A Part of, doing the will of God is connected with knowing what is true about God and His Nature, Identity, and Character. And follow through in obedience in Faith-

As it is written-

Joh 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

1Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? ***

2:7 In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,

And on the divine identity of Christ

John 8: 24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

A significant part of doing God

[David T]

Thanks to everyone who has participated so far. It appears that all who have responded so far would allow for the possibility that those who hold to the doctrines of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints may be Saved. If this is not correct, please make clear how you disagree with this statement, and the scriptures by which this belief is based.

Are there any of our lurkers who believe that specific beliefs LDS have will exclude them from salvation? If so, please present what you feel that belief is, and where in the Bible it points out that someone who believes such will disqualify them for salvation.

I know I have seen the accusation and assertion many, many times, and am looking for someone who holds this belief to please present your Biblical basis for believing so.

In accordance with the terms I set in the OP, I promise you will not be mocked or ridiculed, or have your own personal beliefs assaulted. If this does happen, I will certainly request that the individual doing so is banned from the thread, in accordance with the terms I set out in the OP. This goes for anyone who participates here in such a disrespectful manner, and just makes insulting assertions without presenting the specific scriptural basis for your belief.

I know coolrok7 has specifically made such an assertion, and I continue to request his respectful participation in this discussion.

[cksalmon]

In this life? Nothing.

Mormon belief allows for the eventual salvation/exaltation of avowed atheists.

The fate of the unevangelized is not an issue for LDS.

I understand that, but that's not at all my point. I simply reject the apparent premise that LDS and non-LDS affirmation of certain biblical texts, without any reference whatever to their respective totalizing worldviews, says anything useful re: the question, "What must [one] believe to be saved?" That's a fool's errand.

[David T]

I understand that, but that's not at all my point. I simply reject the apparent premise that LDS and non-LDS affirmation of certain biblical texts, without any reference whatever to their respective totalizing worldviews, says anything useful re: the question, "What must [one] believe to be saved?" That's a fool's errand.

cksalmon:

I'd welcome any contextual framing of one's answer to the question, specifically in explaining your own beliefs. When answering the positive (what you must believe), I would prefer that you keep it to affirmations of your belief, and not statements that Mormons do not believe particular things.

When presenting the framework for the 'cannot believe', likewise, I would prefer it be framed in, 'such a belief would not be exceptable, because...' instead of as 'Mormons believe [this], therefore, you're not saved".

In other words, I would very much like an expression of your own beliefs, using the scriptural references that give that belief authority for you, and please feel free to include an explanation of the framework and worldview where that comes from. I recognize this is essential in understanding doctrinal convictions. (which is a key reason I started this thread to begin with)

Thank you for your contributions!

[jerald_lopez]

I think, the only difference between Mormons and traditional christians have is their belief of who God is.Im not yet good in english but i will try to explain my point of view.This is what I've got as far as I know:We, traditional Christians believe the 'Jesus' of the bible who was sent by God to save us from condemnation caused from our sinful nature.And he has the very nature of God, and the image of invisible God.Mormons believe that 'Jesus' is a spiritual brother of Satan. And both Jesus and Satan are litteral children (and so are the people of the world) of God who used to have a wife and has flesh and used to be a man once from another planet, exalted and become God. So that is a different Jesus and different God.We believe that God is not subject to the principles of nature, but He is the one who created not just everything but also the concept of 'principle'. There are more things i wanted to add but this will pretty much sure give you the insight of my idea.Logically, if u believe in a different 'Jesus and God' then there is no salvation at all. Sincerity cannot save us. But God can.I cannot judge anyone if they are saved or not.And i leave up to you the decision on what to believe.

[David T]

I think, the only difference between Mormons and traditional christians have is their belief of who God is.Im not yet good in english but i will try to explain my point of view.This is what I've got as far as I know:We, traditional Christians believe the 'Jesus' of the bible who was sent by God to save us from condemnation caused from our sinful nature.And he has the very nature of God, and the image of invisible God.

You're fine up until this point...

Mormons believe that 'Jesus' is a spiritual brother of Satan. And both Jesus and Satan are litteral children (and so are the people of the world) of God who used to have a wife and has flesh and used to be a man once from another planet, exalted and become God. So that is a different Jesus and different God.

This thread is not for you to tell me what you think all Mormons believe (nor is it necessary for LDS to do a point by point rebuttal of such presentation - that will just derail the thread) .

It to explain your belief, and the specific scriptural references you find to specifically state that a particular belief disqualified one for Salvation. When others try to explain others' beliefs, they almost always get it wrong - like you have.

We believe that God is not subject to the principles of nature, but He is the one who created not just everything but also the concept of 'principle'. There are more things i wanted to add but this will pretty much sure give you the insight of my idea.Logically, if u believe in a different 'Jesus and God' then there is no salvation at all. Sincerity cannot save us. But God can.I cannot judge anyone if they are saved or not.And i leave up to you the decision on what to believe.

Please note what I said above:

I'd welcome any contextual framing of one's answer to the question, specifically in explaining your own beliefs. When answering the positive (what you must believe), I would prefer that you keep it to affirmations of your belief, and not statements that Mormons do not believe particular things.

When presenting the framework for the 'cannot believe', likewise, I would prefer it be framed in, 'such a belief would not be exceptable, because...' instead of as 'Mormons believe [this], therefore, etc".

While I thank you for your willingness to participate, for this discussion, I'm not looking for affirmations as to why you think we're wrong, or not Christians.

I'm looking for the scriptural references that state specific beliefs concerning one's understanding of the God the Father and Jesus Christ of the Bible will disqualify them for salvation.

[Vance]

I was hoping to see more non-LDS participation in this thread. I for one, would like to know the answer to the OP question.