Creatio ex Nihilo, Monotheism, and Divinization

[maklelan]

Keep in mind, as well, that my comments were specifically addressed to your comments about creatio ex nihilo, and my dating for 2 Macc 7 is largely immaterial to that debate. I also look forward to your responses to my discussion of the phrase in Greek literature.

[Daniel Peterson]

2 Maccabees 7:28 is scarcely breaking news to either Mormon or non-Mormon scholars arguing for the relative lateness of the doctrine of creation ex nihilo.

I discuss it, for example, in my article "Does the Qur'an Teach Creation Ex Nihilo? (John M. Lundquist and Stephen D. Ricks, eds., By Study and Also by Faith: Essays in Honor of Hugh W. Nibley on the Occasion of His Eightieth Birthday, 27 March 1990, 2 vols. [salt Lake City and Provo: Deseret Book and FARMS, 1990], 1:584-610), commencing already in the third paragraph.

That was twenty years ago.

See also my article "Creation" in Jane Dammen McAuliffe, et al., eds., Encyclopaedia of the Qur

[3DOP]

To my question about the importance of an early date for the appearance and definition of the doctrine of creation ex nihilo especially as it might apply to Catholics:

maklelan

I'm perfectly happy recognizing that multiple doctrines found their genesis in the theological milieu of Nicea and just before, and I wouldn't fault anyone for recognizing the same. There are quite a few traditional Christians who assert rather vehemently that creatio ex nihilo begins in Gen 1:1 and is found every step of the way since then. These arguments are aimed primarily at those antagonists.

Vance

I can only speak for myself, but, No!

Believing that "the Church" maintained authority to declare/clarify/(or even change) doctrine/practice, removes the need for Catholics to establish this.

Protestants (of the "sola scriptura" variety), on the other hand do.

Which brings up an interesting issue. Protestants reject Maccabees as authoritative. I don't know what kind of "Christian" Brennin clams to be (other than Anti-Mormon), but unless he is Catholic he hasn't a leg to stand on.

Rory

Very good. Thanks. I think I can consider myself excused from any personal concern in the discussion. I couldn't admit that creatio ex nihilo is clearly excluded by the biblical data, even in the abbreviated canon of the LDS and Protestants, but I certainly agree that Gen. 1:1 seems inconclusive and allows for the possibility of pre-existent matter. I have been wondering about this for a few years, monitoring maklelan's work on Maccabees, and am glad to have the clarification. I should have asked a lot sooner!

To be fair to Protestants Vance, even though Maccabees is not canonical for them, it could still be a Jewish literary document that showed what they consider to be a canonical teaching. I can understand why they appeal to it, just as they might Philo or Josephus if they see evidence that supports their position. If either of those sources showed a clear teaching on the subject, it would be some help to their cause wouldn't it? But I appreciate your seeing that the main problem is that by means of scripture alone, we are hard pressed to resolve the question. I fully agree with you about that.

3DOP

[Vance]

I suggest you familiarize yourself with that evidence before you try to undermine it with broad and flippant strokes.

Whoa there Mak! This is Brennin you are talking to. See the first quote in my sig line for a description of his MO.

[3DOP]

I am sorry to butt in for a minor complaint. But for what it might ever be worth to any of you, and especially for anyone who is often trying to be very clear for academic purposes, I would ask you to consider the following:

Because it is tradition (usually expressed with a large "T") that particularly separates Catholics from Protestants, Catholics like myself tend to identify very powerfully with the term "traditional". Protestants usually bristle at the idea of "Tradition" as having any authority. I know that LDS use the expression "traditional Christian" in general to refer to non-LDS Christianity and do not bring it to your attention except to say that if Protestants were truly "traditional", they could perhaps have "the leg to stand on" that Vance points out that they lack. The problem as a Catholic sees it, is that Protestants in this discussion and in many others, are NOT "traditional". Rejecting "Tradition", the scripture alone fails to resolve most serious doctrinal controversies and they end up by splitting and dividing among themselves. Although Catholics and Protestants often believe the same things, we believe them for different reasons and from different authoritative sources. That is why in most discussions, the truly "traditional Christians" could appreciate being distinguished from the Christians who pointedly reject tradition (Protestant sola scripturians).

Regards,

3DOP

[maklelan]

I am sorry to butt in for a minor complaint. But for what it might ever be worth to any of you, and especially for anyone who is often trying to be very clear for academic purposes, I would ask you to consider the following:

Because it is tradition (usually expressed with a large "T") that particularly separates Catholics from Protestants, Catholics like myself tend to identify very powerfully with the term "traditional". Protestants usually bristle at the idea of "Tradition" as having any authority. I know that LDS use the expression "traditional Christian" in general to refer to non-LDS Christianity and do not bring it to your attention except to say that if Protestants were truly "traditional", they could perhaps have "the leg to stand on" that Vance points out that they lack. The problem as a Catholic sees it, is that Protestants in this discussion and in many others, are NOT "traditional". Rejecting "Tradition", the scripture alone fails to resolve most serious doctrinal controversies and they end up by splitting and dividing among themselves. Although Catholics and Protestants often believe the same things, we believe them for different reasons and from different authoritative sources. That is why in most discussions, the truly "traditional Christians" could appreciate being distinguished from the Christians who pointedly reject tradition (Protestant sola scripturians).

Regards,

3DOP

My apologies for the ambiguity. I used it in the sense of "conservative" Christians, although many Mormons would fall into that category. I would use fundamentalist Christians, but that is a technical term for a specific movement within Evangelicalism, and that's not all I'm referring to. Do you have a suggestion for a more precise term?

[Vance]

I am sorry to butt in for a minor complaint. But for what it might ever be worth to any of you, and especially for anyone who is often trying to be very clear for academic purposes, I would ask you to consider the following:

Because it is tradition (usually expressed with a large "T") that particularly separates Catholics from Protestants, Catholics like myself tend to identify very powerfully with the term "traditional". Protestants usually bristle at the idea of "Tradition" as having any authority. I know that LDS use the expression "traditional Christian" in general to refer to non-LDS Christianity and do not bring it to your attention except to say that if Protestants were truly "traditional", they could perhaps have "the leg to stand on" that Vance points out that they lack. The problem as a Catholic sees it, is that Protestants in this discussion and in many others, are NOT "traditional". Rejecting "Tradition", the scripture alone fails to resolve most serious doctrinal controversies and they end up by splitting and dividing among themselves. Although Catholics and Protestants often believe the same things, we believe them for different reasons and from different authoritative sources. That is why in most discussions, the truly "traditional Christians" could appreciate being distinguished from the Christians who pointedly reject tradition (Protestant sola scripturians).

Regards,

3DOP

Good point.

I find it very interesting that many of the "sola scripturists" doctrines are not based on scripture at all, but rather on Catholic tradition.

[3DOP]

My apologies for the ambiguity. I used it in the sense of "conservative" Christians, although many Mormons would fall into that category. I would use fundamentalist Christians, but that is a technical term for a specific movement within Evangelicalism, and that's not all I'm referring to. Do you have a suggestion for a more precise term?

Please don't think I took offense. It isn't ambiguous here at MA&DB. I understand you not wanting to grant the term "conservative" to them too. If you can see what I mean, I appreciate it, and am sure you will keep it in mind in the future depending on your audience. I am afraid that I cannot think of a single term at the moment either. Sometimes we just have to spell things out. Believe me, I think it is fine for over here at MA&DB. I am thinking of when you might express yourself elsewhere or write papers or something to be published. You could spend a sentence or two explaining the problem and your terms and definitions for the purpose of clarity at the beginning and then go ahead unhindered.

I would suggest that you use "Protestant". But the problem with "Protestant", or even "conservative Protestant" is that you end up in getting side tracked with how "I'm not protesting anything." It's almost impossible to make everybody happy, but we all know that a happy reader is more likely to listen to us. So I know you'll do your best. Thanks for your concern for clarity that is pleasing to everyone.

3DOP

[Daniel Peterson]

I favor the simple adjective wrong for anybody who disagrees with my positions. An easily-spoken monosyllable, it's also helpfully unambiguous and works just as well for politics as it does for religious issues (where damned is another useful modifier, but slightly more limited in scope).

[WalkerW]

I will take my time with this one and plan on finishing late next year. It's going to be pretty intensive and lengthy (around 200 pages), and I've got dozens of German articles and books I have to stagger through, but I do plan on making it award-worthy, even if TWU doesn't give out awards for theses.

I love how you point out that the articles are German.

[WalkerW]

This is not credible.

Well, I'm rubber and you're glue. Whatever you say bounces off of me and sticks to you. I guess I win.

[urroner]

This is not credible.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

[WalkerW]

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

[ELF1024]

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

According to the Google Overlords... Credible means...

('cred

[maklelan]

I love how you point out that the articles are German.

I have many more articles in English than German, but the books and articles in German take a particularly long time for me to struggle through, as my academic German is not quite what it should be.

[WalkerW]

I have many more articles in English than German, but the books and articles in German take a particularly long time for me to struggle through, as my academic German is not quite what it should be.

I'm just giving you crap. German articles are great (when they are retranslated into English so that I can read them...). Nothing wipes the smile from a fundamentalist's face more than seeing Zeitschrift fur die alttestamentliche Wissenschaft in your citation. You can almost hear their thoughts saying, "What the hell is that...?"

[WalkerW]

According to the Google Overlords... Credible means...

Funny, I don't see anything here about that which Brennin does/doesn't agree with.

I believe it was a movie quote.

[Daniel Peterson]

I'm just giving you crap. German articles are great (when they are retranslated into English so that I can read them...). Nothing wipes the smile from a fundamentalist's face more than seeing Zeitschrift fur die alttestamentliche Wissenschaft in your citation. You can almost hear their thoughts saying, "What the hell is that...?"

Years ago, my book Offenders for a Word: How Anti-Mormons Play Word Games to Attack the Latter-day Saints was reviewed by the late Pastor John L. Smith in his anti-Mormon rag, The Utah Evangel. One of his chief accusations against the book -- I'm not making this up -- was that German-language books and articles were prominent in its bibliography.

I felt so ashamed.

[ELF1024]

I believe it was a movie quote.

Um... yeah... I was furthering the mocking by pointing out that the real defintion of the word has nothing to do with what "bones" (brennin) agrees with.

Perhaps I just should have added "Go away or I shall taunt you a second time!" to it, just to make my meaning clear.

[WalkerW]

Years ago, my book Offenders for a Word: How Anti-Mormons Play Word Games to Attack the Latter-day Saints was reviewed by the late Pastor John L. Smith in his anti-Mormon rag, The Utah Evangel. One of his chief accusations against the book -- I'm not making this up -- was that German-language books and articles were prominent in its bibliography.

I don't think you can make stuff like that up.

I felt so ashamed.

As you should. How dare you read anything beyond the God-given language of English. If it was good enough for Jesus, then it is good enough for me.

[WalkerW]

Um... yeah... I was furthering the mocking by pointing out that the real defintion of the word has nothing to do with what "bones" (brennin) agrees with.

Perhaps I just should have added "Go away or I shall taunt you a second time!" to it, just to make my meaning clear.

That was my fault. I didn't read your post carefully enough. I just realized that. Sorry. You may fart in my general direction.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Well, I'm rubber and you're glue. Whatever you say bounces off of me and sticks to you. I guess I win.

I was thinking something along these lines.

"Its a free country, I can do what I want".

What is this the 3rd grade?

[WalkerW]

I was thinking something along these lines.

"Its a free country, I can do what I want".

What is this the 3rd grade?

Your mom goes to college.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Your mom goes to college.

You mom? Lol. Brilliant.

[WalkerW]

That is a great paper. I highly recommend it.

I cited it in something I wrote quite some years back. I just can't remember what!

I think you've cited it in several.