Arianism Vs. the Trinity

[coolrok7]

In the common usage of English, "being", "person", and "individual" are interchangeable. It is only in the Trinitarian theological world that they are different.

Deal with it. That is all I am asking.

The point being the Trinity is the view I hold to not modalism as it is represented by Mormons (officially). So accurately reflect that when you're dealing with me, OK, is what I"m asking?

[coolrok7]

The Nicene Creed as it is confessed in the Lutheran Hymnal (Missouri Synod of which I

[Vance]

. . . Jesus stated Himself:

Jesus answered, . . .

[cdowis]

I simply want to point out that the original text of the Nicene Creed uses the word homoousia to describe the relationship among members of the godhead.

Look it up. and look up the definition.

Now, many churches, as they have translated the creed into their venacular, may have "fine tuned" the definition of homoousia to fit their current dogma.

[Vance]

<SNIP>

Nice sermon.

Well, I guess it was nice. I fell asleep part way through.

Wake me up when you actually want to have a discussion.

[Anakin7]

It would appear/seem that Mr.Coolrok comes here as a OCB outlet of his person to throw stones at us and shut up the Kingdom of God unto us [ John 8:7/Matthew 23:13]. Or he may be showing us his version of "Tough Love" for us. Is he not aware of the theological /unbiblicalness of his own faith as observed by other non LDS Christians in regard to his spiritual church daddy/father Martin Luther and Lutheranism ?, Pray tell.

Salvation Is In Christ The person

Anakin7

[T-Shirt]

The Mormon missionaries are the ones who come to the door with the same misunderstanding of the Trinty as the ones from back in the latter part of the 1970's when I first started having "discussions" with them. It hasn't changed.

You are grossly generalizing. Missionaries today are not instructed on what is or is not mainstream Christianity's doctrine of the Trinity. If any missionary, today, misrepresents your belief, he does so from his own understanding. I make no excuses for this misunderstanding, but it does not come from the Church.

The corrections requested is to state the Tritity (not modalistic) in the terms actually used such as one God, three persons being the one Lord (God not g(G)ods) as Jesus stated Himself:

Can you cite anything official from the last two or three decades where the Church has misrepresented your belief? Your citations from half a century ago do not constitute today's official teaching on the matter.

And, just for the record, whenever I hear a Mormon misrepresent mainstream trinitarian doctrine as modelism, I am quick to correct them. But, I assure, you, there is no official teaching on the matter in the Church that I am aware of.

T-Shirt

[T-Shirt]

Nice sermon.

Well, I guess it was nice. I fell asleep part way through.

Wake me up when you actually want to have a discussion.

Vance,

At the risk of being called a board nanny, could you ratchet things back a notch or two, there is no need to be condescending.

Best,

T-Shirt

[cdowis]

As a Mormon, coolr, I have given you the historical definition of the trinity, from the original Greek. It seems even you were not aware of this, so perhaps we have healed the wounds, correct misimpressions on both sides.

As a bonus, I have given you a correct understanding of LDS doctrine.

Hope this clears up everything for you. And may the missionaries always speak with accuracy and precision.

[coolrok7]

. . .The LDS do not believe in modalism, nor the Arian view. Both of those views are heretical, along with homoousia.

We accept the teaching of Christ as found in John 17:19-23. I think the closest terms to this concept is "power of attorney", or "Patrimony". You will find that specifically in the first couple of verses in Hebrews. We are joint heirs with Christ, as Christ and the apostles taught us.

I would suggest that you have no idea what we believe.

My bad, I didn't mean to state that Mormons believe in modalism or are Arian in their views (strike the underlined):

The thread is about Arianism Vs. the Trinity and how our view is distorted with modalism, an heretical view by Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses who are basically Arian in their view of Jesus. Read the opening of the thread. Anyone going to answer that as I provided the quotes from both organizations in their misrepresentation of the Trinitarian view?

It should have been stated this way:

The thread is about Arianism Vs. the Trinity and how our view is distorted by both Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses (Witnesses are basically Arian in their view of Jesus). Read the opening of the thread. Anyone going to answer that as I provided the quotes from both organizations in their misrepresentation of the Trinitarian view?

In my view at the time, based on what led up to me saying this, was that no one was really answering the opening comments I made and still aren't.

Modalism is not the Trinitarian view of the nature of God:

BCSpace, on 01 September 2010 - 09:34 AM, said:

Instead of three Persons, there is only one, the three being separate manifestations of the one Person. Otherwise, the same. God is an abstraction.

Congratulations....I believe you just described Modalism....the heresy the Nicene Creed was trying to do away with.

This post has been edited by Hannah Rebekah: A week ago

Hannah Rebekah

"LDS Christian"

My point was that the Nicene creed was mainly focused on dealing with Arianism; The context of these statements by both Mormons and Witnesses is modalistic in light of their statement/question (underlined):

. . .The Oneness of the Father and the Son: There has been much misunderstanding regarding the oft-repeated statement that Jesus and his Father are one. A careful reading of the seventeenth chapter of John should clarify this matter fully. As Jesus was about to be offered up, he prayed unto his Father and thanked him for his apostles, saying,

[Brennin]

Mormons routinely misrepresent the doctrine of the trinity (albeit unknowingly in most cases). The good news for the OP is that Mormonism, including its Christology, is manifestly false. The bad news for the OP is that his Trinitarian Christology is also.

[cdowis]

The good news for the OP is that Mormonism, including its Christology, is manifestly false.

Arre you willing to open a thread on that subject? Or is this just a pathetic sound bite with no substance.

Let's see what you got.

[Brennin]

Its 1x1x1=1 not 1+1+1=1 which would be 1+1+1 does not equal one.

It is also the case that:

1 x 1 x1 x1 =1

and

1^n =1, for any integer n.

Mathematics does not support your trinitarianism.

[volgadon]

On Deut. 6:4. http://calba-savua.blogspot.com/2010/07/monotheistic-declarations.html

[Brennin]

Also can't find "immaterial" anywhere.

That surprises me not in the least.

Premise 1: God is spirit (John 4:24)

Premise 2: A spirit does not have flesh and bones (Luke 24:39)

Conclusion: God does not have flesh and bones, i.e., is incorporeal.

Quod erat demonstrandum

[Brennin]

And Trinitarianism is not true Monotheism.

Nor is Mormon monolatry.

[Brennin]

Specifically the Nicene creed teaches "homoousia", or "one substance". The Father, Son and Holy Ghost are one substance.

Actually, the Holy Spirit (not "Holy Ghost") was not "granted" homoousios status until Constantinople (381).

This teaching gained the approval of the pagan emporer Constantine...

Constantine was an unbaptized catechumen at the time, not a "pagan."

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Mormons routinely misrepresent the doctrine of the trinity (albeit unknowingly in most cases).

I am sure that mis-representations happen, but I doubt highly that it is routine. I will say the same thing to you that I did to Cool, that is that you do not have the sole right to the word Trinity and there is a varity of beliefs that could be called trinitarian.

The good news for the OP is that Mormonism, including its Christology, is manifestly false. The bad news for the OP is that his Trinitarian Christology is also.

So Mormonism is manifestly false. I challanged you to demonstrate this.

What are you a JW?

[Vance]

That surprises me not in the least.

Premise 1: God is spirit (John 4:24)

Premise 2: A spirit does not have flesh and bones (Luke 24:39)

Conclusion: God does not have flesh and bones, i.e., is incorporeal.

Fact 1: Jesus has a body of flesh and bones.

Conclusion 2: Jesus is not God.

Edited to add,

Please feel free to show that a spirit must be "immaterial".

[coolrok7]

Brennin, can you give a brief where you're coming from in the sense of a religious organization please?

Also, can anyone answer the op in light of the following?

As always, there are self-appointed spokesman who scoff at what we believe and misrepresent what we teach. (The Ensign, Elder Boyd K. Packer, Nov. 1984, p.66)

But at the LDS Church

[Brennin]

I am sure that mis-representations happen, but I doubt highly that it is routine.

During my seven or so years as a Mormon (shudder), the Mormons I encountered got it wrong, except for the Sunday school teacher who (as I recall) read it and proclaimed it nonsense. (It is nonsense, of course, but so is the LDS Church's Christology.)

...there is a varity of beliefs that could be called trinitarian.

True. There is also the Economic Trinity of Tertullian and others of his era. However, Mormon tritheism doesn't count

So Mormonism is manifestly false. I challanged you to demonstrate this.

The evidence against Mormonism is so overwhelming that it would take several threads.

What are you a JW?

No but my Christology is close to theirs.

[Brennin]

Conclusion 2: Jesus is not God.

Correct.

Edited to add,

Please feel free to show that a spirit must be "immaterial".

That's what the syllogism was for bub.

[Brennin]

Brennin, can you give a brief where you're coming from in the sense of a religious organization please?

I don't attend a church. My complete rejection of trinitarianism limits my options.

[coolrok7]

I don't attend a church. My complete rejection of trinitarianism limits my options.

So what did you become when you left Mormonism?

[Brennin]

So what did you become when you left Mormonism?

An unchurched Christian.