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Seer stones


zappa

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It's been a slow day and You Tube has held quite a lot of my attention. I came across one of the old bible movies, King David with Richard Geer, on there.

Now when it came to Samuel going to Jesse to find one of his sons, he (Samuel) used, what looked very much like to be, seer stones to discern which of the sons would be king. I'll admit to being a little lazy and only scanning some verses in Samuel but in the account of him going to Jesse I don't see a reference to seer stones. But in 1 Samuel 9:9 Samuel is called a "seer".

In Ancient Israel, or the ANE in general, did they consider seers needing to have stones in order to "see"?

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They were one of many things that seers used to receive revelation.

Saul wasn't doing the Lord's will, so the Urim and other methods refused to work. He then went out and found an evil substitute. 1 Samuel 28:6-7

Also, Joseph in Egypt received some revelation through his precious cup, I imagine similar to how JS used the Seer Stone. They were tools for seers, they didn't make the seer.

Genesis 44:

1 And he commanded the steward of his house, saying, Fill the men

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Thanks for the reply.

I think what impressed on me was that, in the film they seemingly chose to add the stones into that part of the narrative.

As for the Joseph account, that hadn't ever stood out to me before.

What I never fully understand is that we have several instances of prophets using objects (stones, cups) to "see" and yet Joseph Smith gets ridiculed for it. Yeah, putting a stone in a hat is weird but how is it any weirder than looking into a cup or stone?

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Thanks for the reply.

I think what impressed on me was that, in the film they seemingly chose to add the stones into that part of the narrative.

As for the Joseph account, that hadn't ever stood out to me before.

What I never fully understand is that we have several instances of prophets using objects (stones, cups) to "see" and yet Joseph Smith gets ridiculed for it. Yeah, putting a stone in a hat is weird but how is it any weirder than looking into a cup or stone?

I suspect a good director will do research. There is plenty of material in Jewish manuscripts to support such an idea. Not all truth is confined to the scriptures, eh?

Also, besides cups and stones, there are rods. Aaron's rod that Moses used. Oliver Cowdrey was also using a rod, when he failed at his attempt to translate. ("you took no thought, save it was to ask me")

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I will add here that Revelations mentions 24 Elders, that look upon a sea of glass that is near the throne of God.

We're also told in Rev. 2 that those who overcome will be given a white stone.

There is opposition and counterfeits in all things. Prophets used stones and the Priesthood. Wizards use crystals and enchantments.

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What I never fully understand is that we have several instances of prophets using objects (stones, cups) to "see" and yet Joseph Smith gets ridiculed for it. Yeah, putting a stone in a hat is weird but how is it any weirder than looking into a cup or stone?

a full understanding of the entire nature of situation is required. at issue is:

1. where did the stones actually come from? if they were "simply found any ol where", then the entire BoM is bogus because the stones weren't found with the plates. but if the stones were found with the plates then why was immoral gain allowed to take place?

2. what was done with the stones prior to translating the BoM.

now, locking a thread is the easiest way of avoiding a response... but reality cannot be changed or altered by simply locking a thread.

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1. where did the stones actually come from?

It depends on which stones you are referring to. Two of them Joseph claimed to receive from the angel with the plates. Other stones were found.

if they were "simply found any ol where", then the entire BoM is bogus because the stones weren't found with the plates.

What if a couple stones were found "any ol where," and other stones were later received from the angel?

but if the stones were found with the plates then why was immoral gain allowed to take place?

Why do you say "immoral gain"?

2. what was done with the stones prior to translating the BoM.

Treasure seeking.

now, locking a thread is the easiest way of avoiding a response... but reality cannot be changed or altered by simply locking a thread.

What makes you think this thread will be locked? Drop the antagonistic tone, and I think you'll get a better response from participants on this forum.

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I suspect a good director will do research. There is plenty of material in Jewish manuscripts to support such an idea. Not all truth is confined to the scriptures, eh?

Also, besides cups and stones, there are rods. Aaron's rod that Moses used. Oliver Cowdrey was also using a rod, when he failed at his attempt to translate. ("you took no thought, save it was to ask me")

Thanks for the extra examples. It's peaked my interest to look out for them more often.

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a full understanding of the entire nature of situation is required. at issue is:

1. where did the stones actually come from? if they were "simply found any ol where", then the entire BoM is bogus because the stones weren't found with the plates. but if the stones were found with the plates then why was immoral gain allowed to take place?

2. what was done with the stones prior to translating the BoM.

see here: http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Seer_stones

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and does anyone here believe Joseph Smith successfully located real treasure with the seer stones?

no of course not. not once.

now, there was a time when the church was going to sell the BoM rights in Canada because it needed to raise some funds... what easier way to raise some funds than to dig up some buried treasure?

JS simply staged the small events, knowing ahead of time where the desired object is, and then proceeded to make everyone believe "he found something".

yet when it came to locating REAL treasure... JS explained how the "cursed gold" was sinking faster than the diggers could dig.

ohhhh! he got such bad headaches when trying to "see" 40 or more feet down.

auchhhh! my leg hurts from pulling on it so hard!

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yet when it came to locating REAL treasure... JS explained how the "cursed gold" was sinking faster than the diggers could dig.

ohhhh! he got such bad headaches when trying to "see" 40 or more feet down.

What is your point? Clearly you don't believe Joseph Smith "gift" was real. Neither do I. Why the antagonism? Why are you here? To make fun of Mormons for their beliefs... to persuade people to change their views? If the latter, tone it down. If the former, take it elsewhere.

auchhhh! my leg hurts from pulling on it so hard!

???

How old are you?

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What is your point?

getting at truth.

my sister-in-law is a church member who told me "everything about the church is completely open and available for everyone to see".

I said "if that's true then can you tell me what's in the First President's Vault?"

the truth is hidden away in a walk in vault somewhere.

there is no effort to "want the truth"... when it's locked away, out of sight, out of mind.

can anyone explain the truth that they haven't seen or even know exists?

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I said "if that's true then can you tell me what's in the First President's Vault?"

the truth is hidden away in a walk in vault somewhere.

there is no effort to "want the truth"... when it's locked away, out of sight, out of mind.

can anyone explain the truth that they haven't seen or even know exists?

Didn't you see the announcement?

http://www.angelfire.com/tv2/Homer/Sounds/hmralcap.wav

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my sister-in-law is a church member who told me "everything about the church is completely open and available for everyone to see".

I said "if that's true then can you tell me what's in the First President's Vault?"

the truth is hidden away in a walk in vault somewhere.

CFR that there is such a vault. CFR that there is anything locked away in this mythical vault.

can anyone explain the truth that they haven't seen or even know exists?

Indeed, one wonders.

Lehi

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getting at truth.

You can't handle the truth... that's why you revile against what you cannot understand or even believe in.
my sister-in-law is a church member who told me "everything about the church is completely open and available for everyone to see".
I pity her...
I said "if that's true then can you tell me what's in the First President's Vault?"

the truth is hidden away in a walk in vault somewhere.

there is no effort to "want the truth"... when it's locked away, out of sight, out of mind.

can anyone explain the truth that they haven't seen or even know exists?

Oh NO! You caught us! You realize what this means? We must now find a new resting place for the Ark of the Covenant! Area 51 is out of the question, guess we must move it to the granite vault in the mountains where the geneological records are!

Oh and one thing if the Church wanted to hide some damning documents or records why not just burn them? Every think of that?

Sounds as if you have watched one to many episodes of "The X Files"! :P

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getting at truth.

my sister-in-law is a church member who told me "everything about the church is completely open and available for everyone to see".

Well. That's simply not true.

I said "if that's true then can you tell me what's in the First President's Vault?"

Good question.

the truth is hidden away in a walk in vault somewhere.

I am sure quite a bit of truth is locked away in it.

there is no effort to "want the truth"... when it's locked away, out of sight, out of mind.

Do we agree that the best way to hide it would be to destroy the incriminating evidence, rather than lock it away out of sight?

can anyone explain the truth that they haven't seen or even know exists?

The good news is that, although we may not have everything available to us, quite a bit is. I've found the LDS Church history library to be very generous, accommodating, and helpful in my studies.

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getting at truth.

my sister-in-law is a church member who told me "everything about the church is completely open and available for everyone to see".

I said "if that's true then can you tell me what's in the First President's Vault?"

the truth is hidden away in a walk in vault somewhere.

there is no effort to "want the truth"... when it's locked away, out of sight, out of mind.

can anyone explain the truth that they haven't seen or even know exists?

Oh..... I am ready to leave the church this second. You win. I will say it.

Destiny! Destiny! No escaping destiny!

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"There was nothing in Al Capone's vault, but it wasn't Geraldo's fault..."

Does anyone else hate the automatic note that a post was edited? There should be like a 30 second grace period or something to allow for the correction of a quotation mark, for example, so that it doesn't look like some major change was made. :P

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