Facsimile 3 Posted June 30, 2010 Posted June 30, 2010 lolum....I am not required to use all of the various definitions in the list at once. That's not how language works. In fact, normally I must not use more than one meaning at a time lest I fall into equivocation. I prefer my sentences to have truth value."game over"lolGive me a break. (oh, must I exclude the meaning of "break" as when one says "I will break your nose"? That's not the kind of break I want you to give me.)This silliness has gone on long enough. Do you have any evidence or rational argument for the notion that an NDE represents an actual encounter with an afterlife or not?NDEs are mystical and remain in the subjective realm. I have no interest in making such an argument though I think NDEs offer great personal evidence (kind of like how we all need to form our own personal testimony of the Book of Mormon). I just responded to you to give you a hard time and further emphasize the point I made in post #81. Feel free to put me back on your ignore list (I don't have a PHD yet).
Facsimile 3 Posted June 30, 2010 Posted June 30, 2010 That really hasn't been my experience. For me, it's like being in an airport in a foreign country. I can hear the announcements over the intercom but I can't understand the language. I have, however, talked to people who can understand it.Yours under the aware oaks,Nathair /|\Hmm. I don't really understand what you are trying to say.
Nathair/|\ Posted June 30, 2010 Posted June 30, 2010 Posted 5 minutes agoNathair, on 30 June 2010 - 01:45 AM, said:That really hasn't been my experience. For me, it's like being in an airport in a foreign country. I can hear the announcements over the intercom but I can't understand the language. I have, however, talked to people who can understand it.Yours under the aware oaks,Nathair /|\Hmm. I don't really understand what you are trying to say.I can hear them speak, but unlike Enoch, I don't know what they are saying.
paulpatter Posted June 30, 2010 Posted June 30, 2010 Will I? Because I know of plenty of people who died rather unexpectedly. The evaluation process may well have taken place before those unexpected deaths. In fact, for some people it's an ongoing process; hence, the practice of New Year's resolutions.: A nice theory, but an atheist might very well argue that belief in God is also a universal need, and pride themselves in bucking that trend. They're certainly welcome to do that, but I suspect (haven't done a survey) that they are a fraction of a fraction of the atheist community.: And who is to say who is psychologically healthy? In the mind of an athiest, 90% of humanity has an irrational belief in the Invisible Sky Bully.And who is to say what constitutes an "irrational belief"?
Skywalker Posted June 30, 2010 Posted June 30, 2010 the same end you would look for if you were to live for eternities: to be the best you can, to be the happiest you can, etc, just for the sake of being itself. There is no 'greater' reason: we simply want to be; thus, we want to live to be able to be.What is it about us that makes us want to be these things? What is it about us that makes us want to progress, accomplish, and become successful? What is this curiosity in our species that dwarfs the curiosity of other inhabitants of Earth? What evolutionary advantage do these things have? In fact, what evolutionary advantage does a cerebral cortex have? Why can't we simply operate on our limbic system like much of the animal kingdom? it matters because we would feel and act very differently if you knew you would die in a week than if you knew you were going to die in 100 years.Perhaps, but the end result is the same... so who cares what I do, have done, or will do? It doesn't matter in the slightest.that may be the case in reality outside our perception but within your perception and to your consciousness time is indeed a factor... that is why we are discussing the hopelessness some people feel when believing they won't last forever.as I said before, you are just begging the question. why to even be good at all (for 5 minutes of for an eternity)?Contrary to popular belief, I do not choose to be good simply because I believe some guy in the sky will punish me if I am not. I choose to be good because whatever intrinsic benefits are associated with me being good will be part of me forever, added to my repertoire of deeds for eternity. What I do here, echoes in eternity, and that is the most profound truth for me.
Jason Posted June 30, 2010 Posted June 30, 2010 I find a negligible importance in 'marriage' by itself. in the quality of the marriage I do see the 'importance' which is what I am talking about. The reason why it may seem that an eternal marriage may be more fulfilling is because you have an infinite number of chances to be happy again and again and again. What I am saying, though, is that it would seem like we would have less of an impulse to make the most out of our marriage if we knew we would have all eternity to do it anyways than if we knew it will only last for some years.Personally I find the idea that I'm going to be stuck with the choice I make now for all eternity, for good or ill, to be an admirable incentive to get the choice right.
Jason Posted June 30, 2010 Posted June 30, 2010 The evaluation process may well have taken place before those unexpected deaths. In fact, for some people it's an ongoing process; hence, the practice of New Year's resolutions.I know a lot of people who don't do New Year's resolutions either.They're certainly welcome to do that, but I suspect (haven't done a survey) that they are a fraction of a fraction of the atheist community.It depends on how you define "atheist". When I use the term I mean those who believe there is no God, not just people who are unsure or beleive His existence unlikely.And who is to say what constitutes an "irrational belief"?Exactly my point. An atheist who is also a moral relativist (as many of them seem to be) has no reason to accept anyone else's opinion on what is and isn't rational or moral. Who cares if I'm a serial killer or Mother Teresa? In 10 billion years it won't matter at all one way or the other.
mfbukowski Posted June 30, 2010 Posted June 30, 2010 The trees I've encountered tend to live slower than we do, but they are hardly unconscious. If anything, they seem to be more aware than many people I deal with.Yours under the intelligent oaks,Nathair /|\ah- now I get the green font color!
MistahStokes Posted June 30, 2010 Posted June 30, 2010 Contrary to popular belief, I do not choose to be good simply because I believe some guy in the sky will punish me if I am not. I choose to be good because whatever intrinsic benefits are associated with me being good will be part of me forever, added to my repertoire of deeds for eternity. What I do here, echoes in eternity, and that is the most profound truth for me. Your most profound truth is one based in selfish prudence?
MistahStokes Posted June 30, 2010 Posted June 30, 2010 Who cares if I'm a serial killer or Mother Teresa? In 10 billion years it won't matter at all one way or the other.What does anything 10 billion years from now have to do with the present?
Tarski Posted June 30, 2010 Posted June 30, 2010 NDEs are mystical and remain in the subjective realm. I have no interest in making such an argument though I think NDEs offer great personal evidence (kind of like how we all need to form our own personal testimony of the Book of Mormon). I just responded to you to give you a hard time and further emphasize the point I made in post #81. Feel free to put me back on your ignore list (I don't have a PHD yet).I do not have an ignore list and I have never put anyone on "ignore".
Jason Posted June 30, 2010 Posted June 30, 2010 What does anything 10 billion years from now have to do with the present?Why worry about the present? In an instant it will be nothing but a memory, and when those who remember it are also gone it won't even be that.Why shouldn't I have my fun - killing who I wish, raping who I wish, and generally acting like a jerk to everyone? At the worst they can punish me for but an instant, and then there is nothing but oblivion.
zeezrom Posted June 30, 2010 Posted June 30, 2010 As others have said, I think the beauty and complexity of life is the best evidence that a God exists.Why does complexity and beauty necessitate a God?
Facsimile 3 Posted June 30, 2010 Posted June 30, 2010 I do not have an ignore list and I have never put anyone on "ignore".
MistahStokes Posted June 30, 2010 Posted June 30, 2010 Why worry about the present? In an instant it will be nothing but a memory, and when those who remember it are also gone it won't even be that.I dare say we worry about the present because we exist in the present. If I take an asprin to get rid of a nasty headache now, that event isn't meaningless because I won't remeber taking the asprin 10 years from nowWhy shouldn't I have my fun - killing who I wish, raping who I wish, and generally acting like a jerk to everyone? At the worst they can punish me for but an instant, and then there is nothing but oblivion.I don't think there is any fun to be had in killing and raping people and I don't think you'd find any fun in it either. I think those that do really enjoy those types of things, do them regardless of the punishment they entail. I don't see why having a infinite regress of justifcations for actions is any more senseical then a chain of justifications that come to an end. Your line of thought seems to make an odd demand that reasons within life are incomplete, but it also suggests that any reasons that come to an end are incomplete. This makes it impossible to supply any reasons at all.
Jason Posted June 30, 2010 Posted June 30, 2010 I dare say we worry about the present because we exist in the present. If I take an asprin to get rid of a nasty headache now, that event isn't meaningless because I won't remeber taking the asprin 10 years from nowIsn't it?
paulpatter Posted June 30, 2010 Posted June 30, 2010 I know a lot of people who don't do New Year's resolutions either. And I know a lot who do. What's your point?: It depends on how you define "atheist". When I use the term I mean those who believe there is no God, not just people who are unsure or beleive His existence unlikely. Speculation at best. Any credible sources?: Exactly my point. An atheist who is also a moral relativist (as many of them seem to be) has no reason to accept anyone else's opinion on what is and isn't rational or moral. Which helps to explain why we can't build prisons fast enough. : Who cares if I'm a serial killer or Mother Teresa? In 10 billion years it won't matter at all one way or the other.But up to 9.99 billion years, it will matter, huh? Seriously, if a serial killer murdered your son or daughter, I'm quite certain you would care--big time.
thesometimesaint Posted June 30, 2010 Posted June 30, 2010 Jason:I remember quite vividly the migraine headache I used to get as a child and teenager. It hurt so much I would literally vomit. Those memories still influence my actions 40 years later.
paulpatter Posted June 30, 2010 Posted June 30, 2010 Why worry about the present? In an instant it will be nothing but a memory, and when those who remember it are also gone it won't even be that.Why shouldn't I have my fun - killing who I wish, raping who I wish, and generally acting like a jerk to everyone? At the worst they can punish me for but an instant, and then there is nothing but oblivion.There are people who actually hold that view. They place no value on the sanctity of human life. The adjective generally used to describe them is psychopathic.
Jason Posted June 30, 2010 Posted June 30, 2010 And I know a lot who do. What's your point?That I don't see much evidence for this self-evaluation you speak of being truly universal in scope.Speculation at best. Any credible sources?Speculation? I'm telling you how I use the term. I don't need "credible sources" to back me up.Seriously, if a serial killer murdered your son or daughter, I'm quite certain you would care--big time.But the ultimate logical consequence of the atheist viewpoint is that no, I wouldn't. Not in any way that mattered to anyone for more than an infinitessimal instant. One might as well cry over spilled milk.
Jason Posted June 30, 2010 Posted June 30, 2010 There are people who actually hold that view. They place no value on the sanctity of human life. The adjective generally used to describe them is psychopathic.Yes, you are indeed getting closer to grasping my point.
MistahStokes Posted June 30, 2010 Posted June 30, 2010 But the ultimate logical consequence of the atheist viewpoint is that no, I wouldn't. Not in any way that mattered to anyone for more than an infinitessimal instant. One might as well cry over spilled milk.As opposed to being overjoyed because they are now in spirit prison and one step closer to the sweet by n by, yes? Whats the purpose of grief if you are going to spend enternity together?
mapman Posted June 30, 2010 Posted June 30, 2010 Well there's the ontological argument:It is proposed that a being has maximal excellence in a given possible world W if and only if it is omnipotent, omniscient and wholly good in W; and It is proposed that a being has maximal greatness if it has maximal excellence in every possible world. Maximal greatness is possibly exemplified. That is, it is possible that there be a being that has maximal greatness. (Premise) Therefore, possibly it is necessarily true that an omniscient, omnipotent and perfectly good being exists. Therefore, it is necessarily true that an omniscient, omnipotent and perfectly good being exists. (By S5) Therefore, an omniscient, omnipotent and perfectly good being exists.I don't know enough about philosophy or logic to know if it's actually valid or not, though.
Jason Posted June 30, 2010 Posted June 30, 2010 As opposed to being overjoyed because they are now in spirit prison and one step closer to the sweet by n by, yes?Perhaps you could be a little more clear?Whats the purpose of grief if you are going to spend enternity together?Grief is an aspect of love.
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