Joseph Smith as a Hebrew Student

[phaedrus ut]

I was reading recently on the influence Joseph's study of Hebrew with Joshua Seixas while he was translating the Book of Abraham and the influence that had on the subject matter of the BoA. But something struck me as out of the ordinary that I hadn't really ever considered.

Joseph Smith could translate reformed Egyptian, actual Egyptian, even hidden parchments like the parchment of John presumable in Greek. Simultaneous to him translating Egyptian and writing the BoA he needs a teacher to walk him through something like the Hebrew of the Book of Genesis? Does that seem strange to anybody else?

Pheadrus

[volgadon]

No, because he sought to improve his normal abilities, to be able to read Genesis in Hebrew without waiting for God to command him to translate it by supernatural means.

[phaedrus ut]

No, because he sought to improve his normal abilities, to be able to read Genesis in Hebrew without waiting for God to command him to translate it by supernatural means.

So he had the ability to translate ancient languages by Urim & Thummim, stone, and nothing at all but reading Genesis in Hebrew fell outside the scope of his abilities and/or calling as Prophet?

I seem to recall Joseph providing ad hoc translation without specific command.

Phaedrus

[rockslider]

It

[William Schryver]

I was reading recently on the influence Joseph's study of Hebrew with Joshua Seixas while he was translating the Book of Abraham and the influence that had on the subject matter of the BoA. But something struck me as out of the ordinary that I hadn't really ever considered.

Joseph Smith could translate reformed Egyptian, actual Egyptian, even hidden parchments like the parchment of John presumable in Greek. Simultaneous to him translating Egyptian and writing the BoA he needs a teacher to walk him through something like the Hebrew of the Book of Genesis? Does that seem strange to anybody else?

Pheadrus

You're so transparently disingenuous at times--it's laughable.

Anyway, Joseph Smith was a seer. He received (according to several accounts, actually "saw") English "translations" of ancient texts originally written in foreign languages and then recited them while others recorded his words.

There is no evidence that Joseph Smith ever deciphered unknown characters from a foreign script and produced a "translation" of a text written in a foreign language. That is a plain and simple fact readily apparent to anyone with even a passing familiarity with the historical record surrounding his restorations of ancient texts.

I acknowledge that there are undoubtedly many Latter-day Saints, who have never really looked into the history of the Prophet and his translations, who therefore hold to incorrect preconceptions concerning the manner in which those translations were produced. They should do a little reading and broaden their knowledge of the way the Prophet of the restoration was enabled to miraculously produce his translations of scripture.

[William Schryver]

I seem to recall Joseph providing ad hoc translation without specific command.

CFR

[phaedrus ut]

It

[phaedrus ut]

CFR

From the top of my head I recall both the Greek Psalter and the Kinderhook plates.

Phaedrus

[J Green]

I acknowledge that there are undoubtedly many Latter-day Saints, who have never really looked into the history of the Prophet and his translations, who therefore hold to incorrect preconceptions concerning the manner in which those translations were produced. They should do a little reading and broaden their knowledge of the way the Prophet of the restoration was enabled to miraculously produce his translations of scripture.

Will,

Would you consider Dr. Ricks to be one who should broaden his horizons?

A more reasonable scenario, in my estimation, would be one in which the means at Joseph's disposal (the seerstone and the interpreters) enhanced his capacity to understand the basic meanings of the words and phrases of the book as well as to grasp the relation of these words to each other. However, the actual translation was Joseph's alone and the opportunity to improve it in grammar and word choice still remained open. All who have had experience in translating are aware of the often considerable cleavage between being able to construe a sentence and actually rendering it in a felicitous translation. All who have translated are also keenly aware that it is a rare translation which cannot be improved. Thus, while it would be incorrect to minimize the divine element in the process of translation of the Book of Mormon, it would also be misleading and potentially hazardous to deny the human factor.

I understand your partiality to Dr. Skousen's conclusions, but I for one don't think that the conversation on the translation process is over just yet. He makes some very good points. But so do others.

Regards

[phaedrus ut]

You're so transparently disingenuous at times--it's laughable.

If it's so transparent I'm curious as to how specifically I'm being disingenuous?

There is no evidence that Joseph Smith ever deciphered unknown characters from a foreign script and produced a "translation" of a text written in a foreign language. That is a plain and simple fact readily apparent to anyone with even a passing familiarity with the historical record surrounding his restorations of ancient texts.

Apparently someone like Royal Skousen fails your test of having a "passing familiarity" with the historical record. But of course maybe we can direct him to some of your scholarship for enlightenment.

Phaedrus

[William Schryver]

Will,

Would you consider Dr. Ricks to be one who should broaden his horizons?

A more reasonable scenario, in my estimation, would be one in which the means at Joseph's disposal (the seerstone and the interpreters) enhanced his capacity to understand the basic meanings of the words and phrases of the book as well as to grasp the relation of these words to each other. However, the actual translation was Joseph's alone and the opportunity to improve it in grammar and word choice still remained open. All who have had experience in translating are aware of the often considerable cleavage between being able to construe a sentence and actually rendering it in a felicitous translation. All who have translated are also keenly aware that it is a rare translation which cannot be improved. Thus, while it would be incorrect to minimize the divine element in the process of translation of the Book of Mormon, it would also be misleading and potentially hazardous to deny the human factor.

I understand your partiality to Dr. Skousen's conclusions, but I for one don't think that the conversation on the translation process is over just yet. He makes some very good points. But so do others.

Regards

Well, first of all, I'm not really thinking about Royal's conclusions, although they do confirm what I believe the rest of the evidence suggests. Nevertheless, and notwithstanding the fact that I do sincerely believe that the evidence is overwhelmingly suggestive of the fact that Joseph Smith never actually deciphered foreign characters of any kind at any time, I'm not disturbed by the fact that others see things differently. I see a prophet. They see a prophet. We both see through a glass darkly when it comes right down to it, and the essential spiritual judgments are made on an entirely different plane than the one where debates about translation techniques take place. So I figure I can afford to wax a little hyperbolic in certain scenarios without, in the final analysis, clinging dogmatically to any particular theory. Fair enough?

[phaedrus ut]

the evidence is overwhelmingly suggestive of the fact that Joseph Smith never actually deciphered foreign characters of any kind at any time

To quote Skousen on Joseph actually transcribing then translating characters.

During this early period, Joseph would first copy some of the characters directly from the plates onto sheets of paper, from which sheets he would then translate his transcribed characters into English by means of the Urim and Thummim. Joseph Smith's Translation of the Book of Mormon: Evidence for Tight Control of the Text - Royal Skousen

Since as you say "There is no evidence that Joseph Smith ever deciphered unknown characters from a foreign script and produced a "translation" of a text written in a foreign language" you might recommend to Skousen that he "do a little reading and broaden [his] knowledge of the way the Prophet of the restoration was enabled to miraculously produce his translations of scripture"

I remain disingenuously,

Phaedrus

[CV75]

Joseph Smith could translate reformed Egyptian, actual Egyptian, even hidden parchments like the parchment of John presumable in Greek. Simultaneous to him translating Egyptian and writing the BoA he needs a teacher to walk him through something like the Hebrew of the Book of Genesis? Does that seem strange to anybody else?

Not to me, because, speaking from personal experience, there is something in some people that motivates them to develop physical and temporal talents even as they exercise spiritual gifts. Some talents are developed in performing a specific duty to God, some as an assigned or voluntary duty to others, and some as a duty to self. Plus we don't know to what wonderful things his association with Josiah may have led.

[William Schryver]

To quote Skousen on Joseph actually transcribing then translating characters.

Since as you say "There is no evidence that Joseph Smith ever deciphered unknown characters from a foreign script and produced a "translation" of a text written in a foreign language" you might recommend to Skousen that he "do a little reading and broaden [his] knowledge of the way the Prophet of the restoration was enabled to miraculously produce his translations of scripture"

I remain disingenuously,

Phaedrus

I acknowledge the fact that, during this first stage of the BoM translation process, Joseph Smith first copied characters from the plates and then produced his "translation." However, there is no evidence whatsoever that he produced his "translation" by coming to understand the meaning, in English, of the strings of individual characters he had copied. Quite to the contrary, it appears that the "translation" was produced in precisely the same fashion as was the remainder of the book, after the plates and the Nephites Urim and Thummim had been taken back by the angel: that is, Joseph "received" the English translation via the seer stones (in this case, apparently, the Nephite seer stones contained in the U&T).

Incidentally, I have spoken at length with Professor Skousen about this very thing, and you are mistaken if you believe that Royal thinks the Prophet actually deciphered the reformed Egyptian characters in order to produce his "translation." He most certainly does not believe that. Quite to the contrary, he believes that the process was the same in all the cases you have mentioned, from the BoM to the Book of Moses, to D&C 7, and the BoA. He believes that Joseph simply received, in some fashion or another, an already "translated" English text (apparently, according to his findings, by simply reading the English words right off the seer stone). I believe that, as his gift of seership evolved, he also came to simply "see" in his mind's eye, the content of the revelations he was speaking.

At any rate, I maintain that the evidence is overwhelmingly conclusive: Joseph Smith never "worked out" his "translations" in a fashion analogous to a modern cryptographer or linguist. He merely served as a conduit for translated English texts of ancient documents to be "restored." That there was a "human element" involved in the transmission of these texts is undeniable. What form (and what effects) that "human element" took remains to be discovered at some future time. But, as my ongoing studies of the Kirtland Egyptian Papers have confirmed, Joseph Smith did not understand the fundamental principles of any of the ancient languages/scripts in which these documents were originally authored. That said, his ignorance on that count did not prevent him from producing miraculous "translations" of those documents, through the gift and power of God.

[MAsh]

Will,

Would you consider Dr. Ricks to be one who should broaden his horizons?

A more reasonable scenario, in my estimation, would be one in which the means at Joseph's disposal (the seerstone and the interpreters) enhanced his capacity to understand the basic meanings of the words and phrases of the book as well as to grasp the relation of these words to each other. However, the actual translation was Joseph's alone and the opportunity to improve it in grammar and word choice still remained open. All who have had experience in translating are aware of the often considerable cleavage between being able to construe a sentence and actually rendering it in a felicitous translation. All who have translated are also keenly aware that it is a rare translation which cannot be improved. Thus, while it would be incorrect to minimize the divine element in the process of translation of the Book of Mormon, it would also be misleading and potentially hazardous to deny the human factor.

I understand your partiality to Dr. Skousen's conclusions, but I for one don't think that the conversation on the translation process is over just yet. He makes some very good points. But so do others.

Regards

Either I've misunderstood your point or you've misunderstood Ricks. I'm quite certain that Ricks doesn't think JS became a "translator" in the academic sense of the word by virtue of the U&T. I lean towards a translation method that is described by Ricks. JS would have understood the intent or concept of what was on the plates, but had to convert that into the Jadobian scriptural language with which he, and his readers, were familiar.

[William Schryver]

Either I've misunderstood your point or you've misunderstood Ricks. I'm quite certain that Ricks doesn't think JS became a "translator" in the academic sense of the word by virtue of the U&T. I lean towards a translation method that is described by Ricks. JS would have understood the intent or concept of what was on the plates, but had to convert that into the Jadobian scriptural language with which he, and his readers, were familiar.

For the record, I have no problem with this proposed scenario, although I have to admit that I don't see compelling evidence for this kind of process at work in Joseph's "translations." In any case, the fact remains (as you correctly observe) that the Prophet Joseph Smith never operated as a "translator in the academic sense." That is, when it comes right down to it, my fundamental point.

[hagoth7]

I was reading recently on the influence Joseph's study of Hebrew with Joshua Seixas while he was translating the Book of Abraham and the influence that had on the subject matter of the BoA. But something struck me as out of the ordinary that I hadn't really ever considered.

Joseph Smith could translate reformed Egyptian, actual Egyptian, even hidden parchments like the parchment of John presumable in Greek. Simultaneous to him translating Egyptian and writing the BoA he needs a teacher to walk him through something like the Hebrew of the Book of Genesis? Does that seem strange to anybody else?

At first it seemed strange.

Until I realized Joseph meant what he said about...a prophet being a prophet only when he was speaking as such.

Which means that for the rest of the time, a prophet was a regular joe. With regular limitations.

And with regular interests...despite such limitations.

Which brings us to his interest in Hebrew. A skill which he had to cultivate on his own initiative.

Likewise, God apparently didn't wash Joseph's clothes, or chop his wood, or tend to his animals, etc.

Some things in life require human effort - and we become better people because of it.

So it makes sense that Joseph was left to his own volition in areas that didn't need prophetic insight.

General Hebrew vocabulary and conjugation being one of them.

(That said, he drew additional prophetic insight from some of the Hebrew things he was taught.)

But this thread isn't about Joseph's riffing...it's about the reality that a prophet is allowed to be human too.

[Joseph Antley]

As others have mentioned, I don't think that Joseph believed that he could actually read ancient characters. God inspired him to interpret the texts, but he did not actually understand the characters outside of his inspired interpretation, which was not based directly on the characters.

I expect that because of his supernatural translating experiences, gaining a formal, personal knowledge of ancient languages was something he envied.

[J Green]

Either I've misunderstood your point or you've misunderstood Ricks. I'm quite certain that Ricks doesn't think JS became a "translator" in the academic sense of the word by virtue of the U&T. I lean towards a translation method that is described by Ricks. JS would have understood the intent or concept of what was on the plates, but had to convert that into the Jadobian scriptural language with which he, and his readers, were familiar.

Hi, MASH.

Since I didn't elaborate on the Ricks passage I fail to understand how you can think that I miss his point. That being said, I like how both you and Ricks explain it.

[volgadon]

It

[Martin.Harris]

This is my understanding. Thanks, Volgadon!

No, because he sought to improve his normal abilities, to be able to read Genesis in Hebrew without waiting for God to command him to translate it by supernatural means.

[phaedrus ut]

At any rate, I maintain that the evidence is overwhelmingly conclusive: Joseph Smith never "worked out" his "translations" in a fashion analogous to a modern cryptographer or linguist. He merely served as a conduit for translated English texts of ancient documents to be "restored." That there was a "human element" involved in the transmission of these texts is undeniable.

So the caractors document that Martin Harris took to New York "and presented the characters which had been translated, with the translation thereof, to Professor Charles Anthon, a gentleman celebrated for his literary attainments. Professor Anthon stated that the translation was correct, more so than any he had before seen translated from the Egyptian" wasn't a translation? Why take characters to a professor to verify a document and translation when it wasn't an actual attempt at translation? If it is merely revelation directly from God then why have characters at? Why have Moroni bury the plates, why have the records kept, why the fantastic story of discovering the plates, why even have Nephi kill Laban when actual written words aren't necessary?

I can understand the present desire to distance the end product with it's supposed sources. I think B.H. Roberts accurately predicted the present circumstances.

"if Joseph Smith

[William Schryver]

So the caractors document that Martin Harris took to New York "and presented the characters which had been translated, with the translation thereof, to Professor Charles Anthon, a gentleman celebrated for his literary attainments. Professor Anthon stated that the translation was correct, more so than any he had before seen translated from the Egyptian" wasn't a translation? Why take characters to a professor to verify a document and translation when it wasn't an actual attempt at translation? If it is merely revelation directly from God then why have characters at? Why have Moroni bury the plates, why have the records kept, why the fantastic story of discovering the plates, why even have Nephi kill Laban when actual written words aren't necessary?

I can understand the present desire to distance the end product with it's supposed sources. I think B.H. Roberts accurately predicted the present circumstances.

Phaedrus

First of all, there is little, if any, evidence (and much to the contrary) that the so-called "Caractors" document was in fact what Martin Harris presented to Charles Anthon in 1829.

But even if it is, the fact that Joseph Smith may have been informed, by revelation, that a certain portion of his translation corresponded to the characters he transcribed does not mean that he really knew how to decipher those characters, only that he learned that those characters were the source of that part of the translation he had already received. Remember that the document prepared for Anthon was produced AFTER the completion of the BoM translation.

Again, there is no evidence at all that Joseph Smith understood the meaning of individual characters, or that he had any understanding of the nature of the scripts and languages of the source materials he employed for the Book of Mormon, D&C 7, or the Book of Abraham. Indeed, there is a substantial body of evidence that indicates he never consulted the plates of Mormon for any of the published Book of Mormon. In addition, there is a growing body of evidence (much of which will be reviewed in a presentation at the upcoming FAIR conference) that he did not use the Egyptian papyri in order to produce his translation of the Book of Abraham. The BoA papyri presented a unique opportunity for him to attempt, after the fact, to understand the relationship between the source materials and the translation. However, despite spending years poring over the papyri as opportunity presented itself, there is no evidence that Joseph Smith ever acquired any understanding of the meaning of the texts on the scrolls, or even ever knew for certain where the Abraham text was located on those scrolls. The KEP clearly demonstrate that he and his associates were uncertain of what Egyptian characters on the scrolls represented the text of the Book of Abraham.

Finally, there is no conscious effort to distance Joseph Smith's translations from their source materials. Not at all. There is only an effort to understand better the nature of the seeric processes involved. Indeed, the more I learn, the greater regard I have for Joseph Smith as a prophet, seer, and revelator--even if he never became much of a linguist.

[phaedrus ut]

First of all, there is little, if any, evidence (and much to the contrary) that the so-called "Caractors" document was in fact what Martin Harris presented to Charles Anthon in 1829.

I haven't seen the contrary evidence. Can you give me an example?

But even if it is, the fact that Joseph Smith may have been informed, by revelation, that a certain portion of his translation corresponded to the characters he transcribed does not mean that he really knew how to decipher those characters, only that he learned that those characters were the source of that part of the translation he had already received.

I see a lot of speculation in your language without any specifics. I've provided numerous examples of Joseph translating characters and all I've seen from you is conjecture about what could have happened. In the Anthon scenario it's specifically said that Joseph copied characters from the plates and provided a translation for Martin Harris to take to Anthon. That pretty unambiguous.

Remember that the document prepared for Anthon was produced AFTER the completion of the BoM translation.

No the Anthon affair predates the both 116 pages and the BOM.

Again, there is no evidence at all that Joseph Smith understood the meaning of individual characters, or that he had any understanding of the nature of the scripts and languages of the source materials he employed for the Book of Mormon, D&C 7, or the Book of Abraham.

Here are a few quotes from Joseph himself where he is very specific about his translation and understanding:

"I have given a brief history of the manner in which the writings of the fathers, Abraham and Joseph, have been preserved, and how I came in possession of the same--a correct translation of which I shall give in its proper place."

"The remainder of this month, I was continually engaged in

translating an alphabet to the Book of Abraham, and arranging a grammar of the Egyptian language as practiced by the Ancients

."

"October 1.--This afternoon I labored on the Egyptian alphabet... during the research, the principles of astronomy as understood by Father Abraham and the ancients unfolded to our understanding, the particulars of which will appear hereafter."

"Tuesday, 24.--...In the afternoon we

translated some of the Egyptian records

"

"Thursday, 26.--Spent the day in

translating Egyptian characters from the papyrus

"

(History of the Church, vol.2 for all)

Another very specific example is Facsimile #3 in the BoA. Joseph provided a translation for characters #'s 2, 4,& 5.

2.)King Pharaoh,

whose name is given in the characters above his head

.

4.)Prince of Pharaoh, King of Egypt,

as written above the hand

.

5.)Shulem, one of the king

[William Schryver]

Phaedrus:

I've provided numerous examples of Joseph translating characters