Jesus Christ as the Father

[Molloch]

Well, if I thought that David (the adulterous murderer) was speaking by the Spirit rather than by a guilty conscience then I might think it was literal.

Edited to add,

Besides, I thought you guys believed that hell is the separation FROM God. Am I wrong?

You mean David "after my own heart", that David? By the way just for fun Vance, let's assume that it is not meant to be taken literally, what would David be trying to show by saying God was in two opposite extremes? Oh, and who is "us guys"?

[Vance]

You mean David "after my own heart", that David?

No, not the pre adultery, pre murderer David, but the post adultery, post murderer David.

By the way just for fun Vance, let's assume that it is not meant to be taken literally, what would David be trying to show by saying God was in two opposite extremes?

That David could not escape from his guilt. He could not hide his guilty soul from God.

Oh, and who is "us guys"?

Are you saying that you don't believe that hell is separation from God? Why are you avoiding the question? Is it because to answer it, a serious flaw in your theology will be exposed?

[zeezrom]

I just don't get the traditional Christian concept of God... To me their attempts to explain the godhead is truly "incomprehensible."

The Godhead in Mormonism has never been easy for me, but that never bothered me. Should the concept of God be easy to understand or comprehensible to a mere human being?

[Vance]

The Godhead in Mormonism has never been easy for me, but that never bothered me. Should the concept of God be easy to understand or comprehensible to a mere human being?

Isn't that one of the reasons Jesus came, to SHOW us what God is like?

[Molloch]

No, not the pre adultery, pre murderer David, but the post adultery, post murderer David.

That David could not escape from his guilt. He could not hide his guilty soul from God.

Are you saying that you don't believe that hell is separation from God? Why are you avoiding the question? Is it because to answer it, a serious flaw in your theology will be exposed?

1. The one who was humbled and begged forgiveness, that post adultery, murderer, david?

2. How convenient for you! Except that he could of course, since you've obviously established that God is only in heaven.

3. No, I don't believe that, who is "us guys"?

[zeezrom]

Isn't that one of the reasons Jesus came, to SHOW us what God is like?

He did show us a lot. I agree with that. But is not God full of awe and amazing too? Wouldn't it be a good thing for God to be beyond our comprehension in many ways? Otherwise, nature and science would be greater than God and we would worship the greater thing.

[volgadon]

Do you mean the same David that on his deathbed made his son promise to settle old scores with people to whom he had granted life?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Is this 1 plus 1 plus 1 equals 1 thing in a pamphlet or something? You're the third person in this thread alone to say that.

Nope just common sense and logic. Try this one on for size.

A+B+C=D. A=God the Father, B= Jesus, C= the Holy Ghost, and D= the Godhead. Now does A=C? Does B=A? Does C=B? Does A=D? Does B=D. Does C=D?

Since A, B, or C by it

[Vance]

1. The one who was humbled and begged forgiveness, that post adultery, murderer, david?

"humbled", maybe.

"begged forgiveness", begging for it doesn't mean he got it.

2. How convenient for you!

You mean the truth? Yes, it is convenient for me.

Except that he could of course, since you've obviously established that God is only in heaven.

So, David was able to hide his sin from God? Really?

One wonders if you have actually read the account. Who do you think revealed it to the prophet that confronted David?

I guess that you also believe that because the sun is so far away, we can't feel its presence.

3. No, I don't believe that, who is "us guys"?

So, you don't believe there is any possible way to be separated from God?

"you guys" is a reference to the "typical" evangelical anti-mormon. If that isn't you then you would be an atypical anti-mormon.

If the shoe fits, wear it, if it doesn't, don't, but why not try to use it as a red herring to distract from your losing the argument.

Edited to add,

Well I have these,

John 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not THE FATHER WHICH HATH SENT HIM.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Nope just common sense and logic. Try this one on for size.

A+B+C=D. A=God the Father, B= Jesus, C= the Holy Ghost, and D= the Godhead. Now does A=C? Does B=A? Does C=B? Does A=D? Does B=D. Does C=D?

Since A, B, or C by it

[David T]

I made a diagram to express the idea I described in my former post.

Jesus' nature was revealed in a tri-partite manner in order to greater help us understand the roles and nature of the Godhead, and perhaps the nature of Godhead itself. Just as there are three members of the Godhead who have specific roles, Christ's nature personifies and reveals aspects of those roles. In other words, as Paul wrote, "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." (Colossians 2:9). In understanding the full nature of Christ, we greater appreciate the distinct members of the Godhead. This, I believe, is a key role of the Book of Mormon. To understand, experience, and know Jesus Christ in all of his roles. Later revelation that came to Joseph expanded and revealed specific characterstics of the other members of the Godhead. But when we understand that Christ was the Greatest Revelation of God to Man, the text and purpose of the book of Mormon becomes clearer.

When read with this in mind, we can greater appreciate how the Book of Mormon is such a powerful and profound Revelation of Jesus Christ - as well as our own potential and nature.

[zeezrom]

I made a diagram to express the idea I described in my former post.

snip

who is this speaking in these verses:

Moses 2:

1 I am the Beginning and the End, the Almighty God; by mine Only Begotten I created these things; yea, in the beginning I created the heaven, and the earth upon which thou standest. ... 3 And I, God, said: Let there be light; and there was light.

etc...

?

[David T]

If you were to ask Joseph Smith when it was written, he would have said, "The Great Jehovah." And I would agree with him.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

If you were to ask Joseph Smith when it was written, he would have said, "The Great Jehovah." And I would agree with him.

Christ always speaks in the first person as the Father

[zeezrom]

If you were to ask Joseph Smith when it was written, he would have said, "The Great Jehovah." And I would agree with him.

FYI - I'm not asking to try and kick up flames but sincerely curious.

Why would Jehovah say, "By mine only begotten" ?

[zeezrom]

I made a diagram to express the idea I described in my former post.

snip

Nack,

I'm failing to see how your figure is easier to comprehend than the traditional view of the Trinity. Your pie chart of Christ is pretty much a Trinity figure with a couple of guys on the sidelines looking pretty bored.

[Vance]

FYI - I'm not asking to try and kick up flames but sincerely curious.

Why would Jehovah say, "By mine only begotten" ?

Jehovah/Jesus Christ has the authority to speak for, in behalf of, and AS the Father.

[zeezrom]

Jehovah/Jesus Christ has the authority to speak for, in behalf of, and AS the Father.

But why?

Why would Jesus say, "Through mine only Begotten son..."

Why?

[volgadon]

But why?

Why would Jesus say, "Through mine only Begotten son..."

Why?

Are you listening? They are saying that Christ spoke as the father, on behalf of the father.

[David T]

Nack,

I'm failing to see how your figure is easier to comprehend than the traditional view of the Trinity. Your pie chart of Christ is pretty much a Trinity figure with a couple of guys on the sidelines looking pretty bored.

Personally? I think the traditional view of the Trinity is a pretty decent description of the three natures of Jesus Christ alone. When it truly goes astray is where it denies the existence of two additional physically distinct personages.

It is a matter of LDS Doctrine that the Personage of the Father - who we currently designate as Elohim - only very, very rarely makes personal appearances - and then, generally only to introduce His Agent and Son, Jesus Christ, presenting Him as His representative, and to be heard as His Own Voice.

The Father 'Elohim', is the Supreme Being and Parent of the Universe. Jesus Christ was sent to reveal important aspects of His Exalted Father. We could not see a premortal Elohim. We could not see a Mortal Elohim. In Jehovah's ministry to Earth, we see - in process - all the aspects of The Father. We see him as a premortal Spirit and Creator. We see him living a mortal life. We see him dying, and being Resurrected into a glorified personage. In seeing Christ, we see the full process of the Plan of Salvation manifest in the most ideal manner possible. We see all aspects of the Universal Presidency/Godhead at work, and in process. The Life and Ministry of Jehovah/Jesus Christ is the greatest revelation of God presented to us.

While not physically here, Jesus Christ was sent to reveal the Father. Hence, " If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him... Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? (John 14:7,9)

The other members of the Godhead are not 'on the sidelines looking pretty bored' - they are extraordinarily active in their responsibilities. Jesus Christ is their face to us, their revelation to us. The "image of the unseen God" (Colossians 1:15). The Holy Ghost points to testifies of the Truth of Christ, who in turn points us to and reveals the Father. The greatest desire of the Savior is to prepare us to personally behold the Face of the Exalted Father, and to be able to dwell with Him.

[Vance]

But why?

Why would Jesus say, "Through mine only Begotten son..."

Why?

The Father sent the Son to deliver a message from the Father. The Son delivered it in the voice of the Father because He, the Son is/was authorized to do so.

[Molloch]

Since A, B, or C by it

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

And there is where we differ.

What you think that A=B? Or that A=C. Can Jesus by himself = D (the Godhead). No? Please explain. If you can't I take that as an admission that my point stands. Nothing like waving a hand.

[Molloch]

"humbled", maybe.

"begged forgiveness", begging for it doesn't mean he got it.

You mean the truth? Yes, it is convenient for me.

So, David was able to hide his sin from God? Really?

One wonders if you have actually read the account. Who do you think revealed it to the prophet that confronted David?

I guess that you also believe that because the sun is so far away, we can't feel its presence.

So, you don't believe there is any possible way to be separated from God?

"you guys" is a reference to the "typical" evangelical anti-mormon. If that isn't you then you would be an atypical anti-mormon.

If the shoe fits, wear it, if it doesn't, don't, but why not try to use it as a red herring to distract from your losing the argument.

Edited to add,

Well I have these,

John 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not THE FATHER WHICH HATH SENT HIM.

[zeezrom]

The Father sent the Son to deliver a message from the Father. The Son delivered it in the voice of the Father because He, the Son is/was authorized to do so.

I understand that answer.

It seems weird that Jesus would echo words from the Father like that. It approaches a feeling of deception. But I'm not God so I can't dictate how things should be done.