Jesus Really is Anti-War

[Jason]

Maybe half of the country wasn't really fighting for Hitler, but the rest were, in relation to the Nationalistic Pride he created...

Fighting for national pride is something very different than "fighting for Hitler". Certainly it's different from "fighting to exterminate all the Jews".

By the time my old scoutmaster joined up, he was very much fighting to protect his home and family from the Allies, regardless of who started the war (he was LDS at the time).

Also, soldiers actually tend to fight for an Ideology/Idea first, then for their family, their country, etc.

I disagree. I think soldiers might enlist first and foremost for an ideal, secondly their family, etc., but that when it comes down to it the primary reason they pull a trigger is because if they don't they or their buddies are going to get shot.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

To quote a famous 20th century poet, "You may say that I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one. I hope someday you'll join us, and the world will be as one."

As long as were are being real. I can go along with this.

[Jeff K.]

Jeff K.:

It is my fault that a beautiful word like Pacifism has been corrupted to include things that it is not.

Shalom

No, your fault only lies within the lack of knowledge, for which you cannot be condemned, it is but an opportunity for you to learn.

[Jeff K.]

To quote a famous 20th century poet, "You may say that I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one. I hope someday you'll join us, and the world will be as one."

The poet who dumped his wife and kid? That poet?

[volgadon]

I really like your stuff David, BUT PPLLEEAASSEE!!!

So are you saying that Moroni waited until AFTER the SECOND ATTACK before he defended the Nephites?

I don't think so.

Moroni was ready, able and willing to shed the blood of Lamanites upon the tresspass of the Lamanite army into Nephi land.

Alma 43:18 And it came to pass that he met the Lamanites in the borders of Jershon, and his people were armed with swords, and with cimeters, and all manner of weapons of war.

This preparation scared the Lamanites and they temporarily withdrew.

22 Behold, now it came to pass that they durst not come against the Nephites in the borders of Jershon; therefore they departed out of the land of Antionum into the wilderness, and took their journey round about in the wilderness, away by the head of the river Sidon, that they might come into the land of Manti and take possession of the land; for they did not suppose that the armies of Moroni would know whither they had gone.

23 But it came to pass, as soon as they had departed into the wilderness Moroni sent spies into the wilderness to watch their camp; and Moroni, also, knowing of the prophecies of Alma, sent certain men unto him, desiring him that he should inquire of the Lord whither the armies of the Nephites should go to defend themselves against the Lamanites.

(Wouldn't that be considered an act of war?)

25 Now Moroni, leaving a part of his army in the land of Jershon, lest by any means a part of the Lamanites should come into that land and take possession of the city, took the remaining part of his army and marched over into the land of Manti.

26 And he caused that all the people in that quarter of the land should gather themselves together to battle against the Lamanites, to defend their lands and their country, their rights and their liberties; therefore they were prepared against the time of the coming of the Lamanites.

All this preparation and STILL no FIRST attack!

35 And as the Lamanites had passed the hill Riplah, and came into the valley, and began to cross the river Sidon, the army which was concealed on the south of the hill, which was led by a man whose name was Lehi, and he led his army forth and encircled the Lamanites about on the east in their rear.

36 And it came to pass that the Lamanites, when they saw the Nephites coming upon them in their rear, turned them about and began to contend with the army of Lehi.

So now we have the FIRST attack. BUT we don't know DIFINITIVELY who attacked whom FIRST.

AND YET the action taken by the Nephites in this exchange was justified in vs. 46

46 And they were doing that which they felt was the duty which they owed to their God; for the Lord had said unto them, and also unto their fathers, that: Inasmuch as ye are not guilty of the first offense, neither the second, ye shall not suffer yourselves to be slain by the hands of your enemies.

Sorry, but I am still not convinced that "offense" must mean "attack".

There is a difference between mounting a defence of your homes and lands against a sudden attack and a war.

[David Bokovoy]

Have you read the Old Testament? Or do you discount it?

I suspect I've read the OT a few more times than the average person. I've already stated that I discount those portions that promote racial genocide as a commandment from God. I don't believe God supports such atrocities.

[volgadon]

Ok, stick to definitions. You honestly believe that Jesus is not a pacifist, i.e. "one who believes disputes between nations should and can be settled peacefully." Have you even read the NT?

Or D&C 98 for that matter.

[volgadon]

The poet who dumped his wife and kid? That poet?

Does that nullify any truth or value in his words?

[volgadon]

I suspect I've read the OT a few more times than the average person.

You should add Jeff K's question to your signature line. It is a keeper.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Does that nullify any truth or value in his words?

I scratch my head at John Lennon sometimes. He was the biggest idealist of them all. Like I said, if we are going to keep it real, I can agree with it. But the porblem is that his statement does not represent real life, but... an idea.

[thesometimesaint]

Jeff K.:

Believe me I am well aware of the misuses of words. I believe it was Cain that said "Am I my brothers keeper?".

[Jason]

I scratch my head at John Lennon sometimes. He was the biggest idealist of them all. Like I said, if we are going to keep it real, I can agree with it. But the porblem is that his statement does not represent real life, but... and idea.

I'll give you a hint as to the source of John Lennon's strange behavior: Drugs.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I'll give you a hint as to the source of John Lennon's strange behavior: Drugs.

No comment. (I must resist the urge.)

[WalkerW]

As to the debacle in Iraq I have seen nothing to convince me that Iraq was involved in anyway with the 9-11 incident. The cause celebre for the US invasion of Iraq.

I don't think this is completely true regarding 9/11 being the reason for the current Iraq War. And even if this was the sole reason given by the government to invade, it is rather irrelevant. The question is not whether or not the government's reason was true or moral; the question is whether there was a moral obligation at all to go into Iraq. Nevertheless, this is really beside the point.

[David Bokovoy]

Alright. Final post for me in this thread.

I don't care what you guys believe. I still love you all.

Shalom!

--DB

[volgadon]

I scratch my head at John Lennon sometimes. He was the biggest idealist of them all. Like I said, if we are going to keep it real, I can agree with it. But the porblem is that his statement does not represent real life, but... an idea.

I'm not a Lenon fan, but he did at times say things which I absolutely agree with, like the aforementioned lyrics. of course it is an idea, how one goes about it is something else.

[Senator]

No. I don't own a gun and never will. I used "take up arms" in the figurative sense. I tend to follow Isaiah's directions for Jerusalem in terms of preparing for defense (see Isaiah 7-.

"Like Hosea, Isaiah rejects the attempts of the king and his counselors to solve their problems by political means: 'take counsel together, but it shall be brought to naught; speak a word, but it will not stand, for God is with us' (8:10). The presence of the Lord requires complete reliance on him. Isaiah's advise would have been difficult for any ruler to follow. It required that he simply put his faith in the Lord, not try to defend himself by making alliances, and certainly not by appealing to Assyria. In Isaiah's estimation, YHWH was more to be feared than either the Syrian-Israelite coalition or Assyria." John J. Collins, Introduction to the Hebrew Bible, 314.

I like this quote. It appears we are dealing with a gradient in divine law. Good, better, best. The best, or highest law, that being of strict pacifism. This is the law the Anti-Nephi-Lehis bound themselves to. They had become a zion people. It was the law cherished in the heart of Moroni but was unable to live by it, and it is the law given by prophecy for Zion in the last days.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Alright. Final post for me in this thread.

I don't care what you guys believe. I still love you all.

Shalom!

--DB

Amen Brother.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I'm not a Lenon fan, but he did at times say things which I absolutely agree with, like the aforementioned lyrics. of course it is an idea, how one goes about it is something else.

And I think that as far as the idea it's self is concearned it is a great idea.

It is like Andy Summers saying "I think everybody should like everybody else".

I think we should try to do that. The reality is that people won't or don't. The same goes for Lennon and his lyrics. I like the idea. Maybe in the future when Christ returns this will happen. But not right now. There is to much evil in the world. Any way I guess I am covering things that your probably have thought about/agree with.

[WalkerW]

Delete

[volgadon]

And I think that as far as the idea it's self is concearned it is a great idea.

It is like Andy Summers saying "I think everybody should like everybody else".

I think we should try to do that. The reality is that people won't or don't. The same goes for Lennon and his lyrics. I like the idea. Maybe in the future when Christ returns this will happen. But not right now. There is to much evil in the world. Any way I guess I am covering things that your probably have thought about/agree with.

I agree that true and full peace will not be on the earth until Christ returns, but we can certainly make an effort.

[thesometimesaint]

WalkerW:

Believe me if anyone attacks me or mine I am willing to take up arms against them, and I am a darned good shot.

That being said there is little to no morality to war. But at least we should recognize morality should play a major role in the decision to go to war.

[WalkerW]

WalkerW:

Believe me if anyone attacks me or mine I am willing to take up arms against them, and I am a darned good shot.

That being said there is little to no morality to war. But at least we should recognize morality should play a major role in the decision to go to war.

I agree. I was just pointing out that the objections to the Iraq War largely focus on what Bush said or didn't say and I find it to be irrelevant.

[thesometimesaint]

WalkerW:

For better or worse what Presidents say has a big influence on what the US does.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I agree that true and full peace will not be on the earth until Christ returns, but we can certainly make an effort.

Just so you are aware it is not my position that we shouldn't try.