Joseph Smith the Martyr/Murderer

[blueadept]

Clueless? or defiantly standing its ground amoung fallen Conrads as a soldier in a fox-hole stands his ground against impossible odds?

Even Jesus knew what was coming.

Normally I give most animals the characteristic of fight or flight. If the lamb was trying to head butt or bite or something, I might consider your viewpoint.

What I saw was "clueless" and I believe I understood the term, "innocent as a lamb" IMO.

[Zakuska]

There is no comparison between Joseph Smith, Jr. and Jesus (Immanuel - God is with us) and there shouldn't be.

Amen.

However... people seem to miss the fact that Jesus armed his men before going to the Garden... What kind of Lamb brings brass knukles to a pillow fight?

Luke 22

36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.

38 And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.

Critics of Joseph Smith have not offered any satisfying explanaintion for this. Jesus could have 2 hired guns and Joseph was a devil because he did, even though at first he refused the gun when offered. Only after he heard of the Impending Mob raid and plot on his life did he accept it. Even Paul of Tarsus snuck out the back window when similar threats on his life were made at Damascus.

It boggles the mind how selectively blind people can be when it comes to their Heros.

[ebeddoulos]

I was raised in the church, went to 4 years of seminary and read a number of church history books that never once mentioned that Smith fired a gun at Carthage or was even in possession of one. I didn't find this out until after I left the church, like many things after the internet age (not that I believe the internet, but the church has come out and clarified a number of historical facts that they never taught before the internet age, due to many facts being disseminated across the internet).

Me thinks this be more of a commentary on your attention level than anything. Shortly after the martydom, Apostle Willard Richards wrote a short piece called

[Walden]

Me thinks this be more of a commentary on your attention level than anything. Shortly after the martydom, Apostle Willard Richards wrote a short piece called

[Pahoran]

This was precisely the same point I made before a conclave of Reorganized LDS leaders, scholars

and students, at Lamoni, Iowa, a few years back.

The instructor of a theological class (a fellow very near the apostolic level) was going on and

on, about how much Joseph Smith was like Jesus Christ -- they both knowingly and willingly having

allowed their blood to be shed, without resistance, for the salvation of sinful humankind.

At that point, I asked why Smith had called out the Nauvoo Legion, to potentially give battle

to the constituted militia of the State of Illinois -- an act of treasonable desperation?

Why did you ambush the poor fellow with a question about "why" Joseph did something, when there is no contemporary evidence that he actually did it?

You have since learned that the Dunham letter was a Hofmann forgery, I take it?

I asked how

Jesus' actions could possibly be compared with those of Joseph Smith, who hoped for the

appearance of the Nauvoo Legion, to carry out an escape from Carthage Jail, etc.

Did he?

What I witnessed was a planned white-wash, pure and simple. It was designed to make Smith

look as much like Jesus as possible, by twisting and falsifying known history. I can only

wonder that, out of many educated attendees listening to that crap, I was the only one

who felt it a necessity to be honest about the gun.

After all, the gospels are honest about Peter's sword.

FWIW, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is and always has been honest about Joseph's gun.

This is an established fact that is denied by nobody with any credibility.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Uncle Dale]

...

FWIW, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is and always has been honest about Joseph's gun.

This is an established fact that is denied by nobody with any credibility.

Regards,

Pahoran

That's nice -- had a Mormon been there with me that day, perhaps he could

have raised that point rather than myself.

If the Nauvoo Legion was NOT mustered in July of 1844, then historians have

made a great mistake. That branch of the state militia was ultimately under

the control of the Governor. If Smith did NOT muster them, and Ford did NOT

muster them, then there was no basis for a state treason trial at Carthage.

Perhaps you can point out some reliable source which shows that the

Legion was NOT called out in July of 1844?

UD

[Pahoran]

That's nice -- had a Mormon been there with me that day, perhaps he could

have raised that point rather than myself.

If the Nauvoo Legion was NOT mustered in July of 1844, then historians have

made a great mistake. That branch of the state militia was ultimately under

the control of the Governor. If Smith did NOT muster them, and Ford did NOT

muster them, then there was no basis for a state treason trial at Carthage.

Perhaps you can point out some reliable source which shows that the

Legion was NOT called out in July of 1844?

UD

Can you point to a reliable source that shows that it was?

Because if in fact the Nauvoo Legion was indeed mustered in July of 1844, it seems at least somewhat harsh to blame Joseph for it, since he died in June.

Or is there something else I'm missing? Who is it that you are crediting with prophetic powers? Is it your assertion that Joseph and Hyrum were arrested for treason on the grounds that they were subsequently going to call out the legion?

Regards,

Pahoran

[Flyonthewall]

Was Joseph carrying the gun when he went to jail?

[Uncle Dale]

...

subsequently going to call out the legion?

...

Exactly my point.

When was the Legion called to arms?

Was the order only "activated" in July?

If there was one, who gave the order?

or -- did armed Mormon incidents depend solely upon

the efforts of Sheriff Backenstos, well AFTER June,

with NO legion mustering?

All of this can be cleared up, if we can here list the charges and

the cited reason for those charges, in Smith's treason trial.

So far as I know, there are no document proving a June mustering.

Perhaps there was only a June call for preparation for a July muster.

But, I may be wrong.

What were the facts?

Where is our resident Carthage Conspiracy expert, when we need him?

UD

[Zakuska]

Was Joseph carrying the gun when he went to jail?

No.

A visitor came and offered it to him. I beleive twice. The first time he refused. The second was latter on in the evening after confrimation that a mob was assembeling to storm the jail. Then he did accept it but even then said he wished it had not come to that, and that he'd only use it if he absolutley had to.

[Flyonthewall]

No.

A visitor came and offered it to him. I beleive twice. The first time he refused. The second was latter on in the evening after confrimation that a mob was assembeling to storm the jail. Then he did accept it but even then said he wished it had not come to that, and that he'd only use it if he absolutley had to.

So when Joseph stated that he was going like a lamb to the slaughter, he was unarmed, and heading towards jail on trumped up charges, of his own free will. knowing that he would die....

[Zakuska]

So when Joseph stated that he was going like a lamb to the slaughter, he was unarmed, and heading towards jail on trumped up charges, of his own free will. knowing that he would die....

Correct. Armed only with a book of Mormon to preach to the Guards.

Unlike Jesus who knew fuill well he would be arrested and told his men to buy swords and come to the Garden armed anyway.

[Flyonthewall]

Correct. Armed only with a book of Mormon to preach to the Guards.

Unlike Jesus who knew fuill well he would be arrested and told his men to buy swords and come to the Garden armed anyway.

I just don't get the argument against his martyrdom... Do martyrs not go willingly to their own death?

[Glenn101]

I just don't get the argument against his martyrdom... Do martyrs not go willingly to their own death?

It does not matter. Those who wish to believe that Joseph was a martyr are well within their rights to do so. Those who do not are also well within their rights to do so. All of the angst by some who do not want to see Joseph portrayed as a martyr is much ado about nothing. In the final analysis, God is the final arbiter and we would all do well to find ot what He thinks of Joseph.

Glenn

[Uncle Dale]

...

God is the final arbiter and we would all do well to find ot what He thinks of Joseph.

...

No doubt that is the truth.

Here is my idea of a martyr:

It's the year 300 and some Christian fellow is brought before the

local imperial administrator:

Gaius: "So, I hear you refused to bow down to the Emperor's statue, Timothy."

Tim: "Yes sir -- sorry about that -- I didn't mean to cause any trouble.

Gaius: "Well, son, you can make it all up tomorrow -- go and bow like the rest."

Tim: "I just cannot do that, sir. The emperor is not my God."

Gaius: "So, you're one of those Greek atheists, are you?"

Tim: "No sir, I've been born again in Messiah Jesus of Galilee."

Gaius: "A Jew? You don't look like a Jew? But Jews do get an exemption."

Tim: "Not exactly, Sir. My grandfather was a Jew. I'm a follower of Jesus."

Gaius: "A real atheist then -- not a Jew, and not a pious citizen!"

Tim: (silent)

Gaius: "You've had your chance. Obey or be executed!"

Tim: (silent)

Gaius: "Guards -- we've got another heathen atheist here!"

fade to black....

UD

[Zakuska]

No doubt that is the truth.

Here is my idea of a martyr:

It's the year 300 and some Christian fellow is brought before the

local imperial administrator:

Gaius: "So, I hear you refused to bow down to the Emperor's statue, Timothy."

Tim: "Yes sir -- sorry about that -- I didn't mean to cause any trouble.

Gaius: "Well, son, you can make it all up tomorrow -- go and bow like the rest."

Tim: "I just cannot do that, sir. The emperor is not my God."

Gaius: "So, you're one of those Greek atheists, are you?"

Tim: "No sir, I've been born again in Messiah Jesus of Galilee."

Gaius: "A Jew? You don't look like a Jew? But Jews do get an exemption."

Tim: "Not exactly, Sir. My grandfather was a Jew. I'm a follower of Jesus."

Gaius: "A real atheist then -- not a Jew, and not a pious citizen!"

Tim: (silent)

Gaius: "You've had your chance. Obey or be executed!"

Tim: (silent)

Gaius: "Guards -- we've got another heathen atheist here!"

fade to black....

UD

Is that how Stephen died? Seems to me he and the others cause quite an uproar, talking about the ressurection and such.

Likewise... So did Joseph Smith with all his talk of Angels... and gold Bibles... and God restoring the Gospel and passing Judgement and calling Prophets again.

[Uncle Dale]

...talk of Angels... and gold Bibles...

It's a wonder that nobody ever took a shot at Sidney Rigdon.

It's a wonder that nobody ever took a shot at Lyman Wight.

It's a wonder that nobody ever took a shot at Charles B. Thompson.

It's a wonder that nobody ever took a shot at Alpheus Cutler.

It's a wonder that nobody ever took a shot at David Whitmer.

It's a wonder that nobody ever took a shot at Joseph Morris....

oops -- they did, and killed him as dead as Strang.

I guess some sect leaders were luckier than others.

UD