Defending Mormon Doctrine by Bruce R. McConkie

[jkfrost]

Can you even find any? I looked through, and the closest thing I saw were some references to "Doctrines of Salvation" (McConkie's compendum of JFS teachings).

Yes:

McConkie, Bruce R. Mormon Doctrine. 2nd ed. Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1966.

My link

The old gospel principles manual quotes from Mormon doctrine

and Both Mormon Doctrine and Doctrines of Salvation quote extensively from

Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith and the D&C

eventually they all lead back to that.

The New Gospel Principles manual quotes from the Priesthood RS manuals

that quote from Mormon Doctrine.

Priesthood RS search on Bruce:

from the GP Manual:

[SlackTime]

O-Brother:

I accept Noah as a Prophet. God instructed him to build a boat. I see no reason for me to build a boat. Do you?

Well....

Noah wasn't by himself you know. The Brother of Jared was also commanded to build a boat, as was Nephi. So we have a continuous line of required boat building from pre 2000 BCE and up to post 600 BCE. It's very possible that Moses wasn't able to go into the promised land because he didn't build a boat and instead required the Lord to part the red sea so he could cross over! Jonah was cast off a boat and swallowed by a fish because instead of building a boat he hired one instead. And I'm sure that I've heard remonstrances from the brethren about Saints buying boats, I'm sure that the rubuke wouldn't have been necessary if they had built them!

- SlackTime

[thesometimesaint]

SlackTime:

When and if the Lord tells me to build a boat. I'll worry about it then. Until that time I'm content to let others build it, as long as they save a seat for me.

Personally I like this little clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0KHt8xrQkk

[O-Brother]

O-Brother:

I accept Noah as a Prophet. God instructed him to build a boat. I see no reason for me to build a boat. Do you?

[thesometimesaint]

O-Brother:

No it isn't. God requires different actions of different people and different times. Otherwise why aren't we all building boats?

[frankenstein]

quoting sections of the book does mean the stamp of approval has been placed on the entire book.

the book is a book is some good knowledge in it, the book is not LDS Doctrine.

[David T]

The New Gospel Principles manual quotes from the Priesthood RS manuals

that quote from Mormon Doctrine.

What?

None of the current Priesthood/Relief Society Teachings of Presidents of the Church manuals the new GP cite quote Mormon Doctrine (that would be absurd). The new GP manual never cites from the outdated 'Duties & Blessings of the Priesthood' or 'Latter-day Saint Woman' manuals that you linked to.

The new edition does not quote from Mormon Doctrine, or any quotes of quotes from MD anywhere. And in fact, in some cases where MD was quoted in earlier editions, the complete teaching the quote or reference provided was completely removed from the revised text (including that one you used as an example in your link).

[cinepro]

Yes:

McConkie, Bruce R. Mormon Doctrine. 2nd ed. Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1966.

My link

As nackhadlow pointed out, you linked to the old version. The new edition removes all of those references.

(And as nackhadlow also pointed out, it would be absurd for the "Teachings of..." manuals for Prophets that pre-date BRM to quote from "Mormon Doctrine".)

And as frankenstein pointed out, no one is arguing that there aren't many good, eloquent expressions of valid Mormon Doctrines in "Mormon Doctrine". We all agree on that.

[consiglieri]

And as frankenstein pointed out, no one is arguing that there aren't many good, eloquent expressions of valid Mormon Doctrines in "Mormon Doctrine". We all agree on that.

Although the phrase "sidereal heavens" becomes hackneyed over time . . .

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[cinepro]

Although the phrase "sidereal heavens" becomes hackneyed over time . . .

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

He was probably hoping it would catch on and be the catchphrase equivalent of "tender mercies" for the 1960's.

[John Larsen]

Well....

Noah wasn't by himself you know. The Brother of Jared was also commanded to build a boat, as was Nephi. So we have a continuous line of required boat building from pre 2000 BCE and up to post 600 BCE. It's very possible that Moses wasn't able to go into the promised land because he didn't build a boat and instead required the Lord to part the red sea so he could cross over! Jonah was cast off a boat and swallowed by a fish because instead of building a boat he hired one instead. And I'm sure that I've heard remonstrances from the brethren about Saints buying boats, I'm sure that the rubuke wouldn't have been necessary if they had built them!

- SlackTime

Great point. If the LDS movement is really about the restoration of all things, somebody better start building a boat sometime soon.

[Droopy]

I suppose we could have dueling sources all day but I did find the following interesting blog: The Controversy over Mormon Doctrine

Anyone can write what they want on a blog or in a book. But other than the Catholic Church and Evolution nobody has yet to site a doctrinal error in Mormon Doctrine. Surly if there were over 1000 "doctrinal errors" someone can name more than the three already discussed here: (Catholic Church, priesthood ban, and evolution). I suspect it is just as his son indicated, his dogmatic tone upsets some more "broadminded" members and that is why they believe they can just reject this Apostle of Jesus Christ, yes he was called and sustained an apostle after the Mormon Doctrine fiasco... why would that be? Why would he not go the way of Paul H. Dunn if he was so doctrinally unsound as some here want to proclaim. Yes Elder McConkie was bold, yes he often sounded dogmatic, yes he would not compromise the Gospel standards "just to get along." Perhaps he was wrong in that, I suspect he was not or he would never have been sustained as a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator (which the apostles are all sustained as). I find it amazing that almost 25 years after his death he still stirs up such ugly feelings people have for this honorable and just man. But I will do all in my power to justify this servant of God who is often the target of slander and hatred, and correct things that are stated against him. I encourage all to go back and read the quote from the OP and not just parrot the same old "Anti-McConkie" rhetoric that is much too common in the Church.

My personal opinion, Lightbearer, with all respect, is that this is both overwrought and unnecessary.

It is clear to me, after reading and using McConkie's texts for some 35 years in my own study and teaching, that he had a rather authoritarian personality and tended to be dogmatic in tone, as a matter of the manifestation of that characteristic.

He was, I think, very smart, educated and knowledgeble, but had little tolerance for ambiguity and nuance, and it is this aspect of his personality that causes problems with Mormon Doctrine.

It is precisely those aspects of Mormon Doctrine that are extrapolatory in nature or represent McConkie's own particular interpretation of doctrines, verses of scripture, or churh policy, that pose the problem when one sees him making very heady statements about things (see the text under the heading of "philosophy" in any edition) which the church and the scriptures do not describe in those terms or with such black/white all or nothing dichotomism.

McConkie's beliefs concerning evolution were clearly well outside of official church doctrine, and did not take into consideration that other modern prophets and apostles had little problem with the basic concept as the means by which the Lord created organic life.

But be this at it may, he was an inspired teacher and taught many inspired things. I have rarely heard a testimony of the Savior as profound and powerful as that he gave in his last conference address before he passed away.

I see no reason to make him now into a kind of martyr for specific doctrines or ideas of his that exist on the periphery of the church and which some think are worth defending.

He was a man who could be wrong and who was subject to all the foibles of human nature. He was also an Apostle of Jesus Christ, and I don't think anything he did or said ever called that into question.

[consiglieri]

Great point. If the LDS movement is really about the restoration of all things, somebody better start building a boat sometime soon.

Noah came before the flood.

I come before the fire.

[consiglieri]

Maybe one of the "errors" alleged by Elder Petersen had to do with the claim that hypnotism is a reality:

Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p.371 HYPNOTISM

See SORCERY, WITCHCRAFT. In answer to the question, "Shall we practice hypnotism," President Francis M. Lyman of the Council of the Twelve wrote: "Hypnotism is a reality, and though some who claim to have this mysterious power are only tricksters, yet others do really hypnotize those who submit to them. From what I understand and have seen, I should advise you not to practice hypnotism. For my own part I could never consent to being hypnotized or allowing one of my children to be. The free agency that the Lord has given us is the choicest gift we have. As soon, however, as we permit another mind to control us, as that mind controls its own body and functions, we have completely surrendered our free agency to another; and so long as we are in the hypnotic spell -- and that is as long as the hypnotist desires us to be -- we give no consent in any sense whatever to anything we do. The hypnotist might influence us to do good things, but we could receive no benefit from that, even if we remembered it after coming out of the spell, for it was not done voluntarily. The hypnotist might also influence us to do absurd and even shocking, wicked things, for his will compels us." (Era, vol. 6, p. 420.).

Reputable doctors sometimes use hypnotherapy, a limited form of hypnotism, in connection with the practice of their profession. Their sole apparent purpose is to relieve pain and aid patients in perfecting their physical well-being. It is claimed that there are many people who have been benefited materially by this practice and that the ills normally attending hypnotical practices have not resulted. This medical practice of hypnotism obviously does not carry the same opprobrium that attaches to hypnotism in general.

[John Larsen]

Noah came before the flood.

I come before the fire.

[consiglieri]

I couldn't resist starting a separate thread on the "hypnotism" subject.

I hope LightBearer and others will weigh in on whether they accept Elder McConkie's authoritative pronouncement that hypnotism is a reality on par with witchcraft and sorcery.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri (Italian for Michelin Man Squad to the Rescue)

[cinepro]

I hope LightBearer and others will weigh in on whether they accept Elder McConkie's authoritative pronouncement that hypnotism is a reality on par with witchcraft and sorcery.

I would agree that hypnotism is on par with witchcraft and sorcery where effectiveness is concerned.

But be this at it may, he was an inspired teacher and taught many inspired things. I have rarely heard a testimony of the Savior as profound and powerful as that he gave in his last conference address before he passed away.

I too find Elder McConkie's final testimony to be eloquent and inspiring (I even memorized it on my mission). Interestingly, people often forget that he said this in there as well:

In Eden we will see all things created in a paradiscal state--without death, without procreation, without probationary experiences. We will come to know that such a creation, now unknown to man, was the only way to provide for the fall. We will then see Adam and Eve, the first man and the first woman step down from their immortal and paradisical glory to become the first mortal flesh on earth. Mortality, including as it does procreation and death, will enter the world. And because of transgression a probationary estate of trial and testing will begin. Then in Gethsemane we will see the Son of God ransom man from the temporal and spiritual death that came to us because of the fall. And finally, before an empty tomb, we will come to know that Christ our Lord has burst the bands of death and stands forever triumphant over the grave.

Not a problem if you don't believe in evolution or ID, of course.

[O-Brother]

O-Brother:

No it isn't. God requires different actions of different people and different times. Otherwise why aren't we all building boats?

Apples = Building a temporary boat for temporary needs.

Oranges = Doctrines preached from the pulpit or written down that were supposed to be eternal.

On what scripture do you base your statement above? About God requiring different actions from different people at different times? How do you substantiate that?

[cinepro]

Apples = Building a temporary boat for temporary needs.

Oranges = Doctrines preached from the pulpit or written down that were supposed to be eternal.

On what scripture do you base your statement above? About God requiring different actions from different people at different times? How do you substantiate that?

It's an interesting question. The "we'd all be building boats" comment could be used to excuse any statement by any past prophet, starting with President Hinckley and going back to Adam. "Sure, President Hinckley told us not to play poker, but he's dead, and we believe in living prophets. Otherwise, we'd all be building boats."

[thesometimesaint]

cinepro:

I'll have a toasted ham and cheese sandwich with that fine whine.

[John Larsen]

It's an interesting question. The "we'd all be building boats" comment could be used to excuse any statement by any past prophet, starting with President Hinckley and going back to Adam. "Sure, President Hinckley told us not to play poker, but he's dead, and we believe in living prophets. Otherwise, we'd all be building boats."

I like the idea that all laws expire with the death of the pronouncer. As long as no other living prophet/seer/revelator has repeated, you are scott free.

[consiglieri]

I like the idea that all laws expire with the death of the pronouncer. As long as no other living prophet/seer/revelator has repeated, you are scott free.

That's what makes the brief interregnum so propitious--sort of like the Mormon version of Mardi Gras.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[mnn727]

FWIW, Mormon Doctrine is cited in the Gospel Essentials manual (new member class), which is an official LDS publication.

Its not worth much -- not to demean your statement but there are many places you can find truth, that does not make the entire source true however.

[thesometimesaint]

O-Brother:

PoGP Chapter 3:25

25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;

[Hyrum Page]

It's kind of a shame that Mormon Doctrine has quasi-canonical status, and it will likely remain the most handy and semi-authoritative handbook of doctrine out there (because an apostle wrote it). I have a nostalgic attachment to it myself, because it was very accessible to me as a teenager. But, a much better job could be done today, doubtless.