BoM Geography: The Gloves are Off...

[Wiki Wonka]

...an account of the former inhabitants of

this continent

. (Joseph Smith History v.34)

From the wiki article: Book of Mormon/Geography/Definition of "continent"

Webster's 1828 dictionary defines a ""continent"" as follows:

"1. In geography, a great extent of land, not disjoined or interrupted by a sea; a connected tract of land of great extent; as the Eastern and Western continent. It differs from an isle only in extent. New Holland may be denominated a continent. Britain is called a continent, as opposed to the isle of Anglesey." (emphasis added)

Webster's definition of a "Eastern and Western continent" is equivalent to today's definition of "Eastern and Western hemisphere." This usage is entirely consistent with Joseph's use of the term. Note also that the 1828 definition of "America" in the same dictionary refers to the entire North and South American landmass as a single continent:

"One of the great continents, first discovered by Sebastian Cabot, June 11, O.S. 1498, and by Columbus, or Christoval Colon, Aug. 1, the same year. It extends from the eightieth degree of North, to the fifty-fourth degree of South Latitude; and from the thirty-fifth to the one hundred and fifty-sixth degree of Longitude West from Greenwich, being about nine thousand miles in length. Its breadth at Darien is narrowed to about forty-five miles, but at the northern extremity is nearly four thousand miles. From Darien to the North, the continent is called North America, and to the South, it is called South America." (emphasis added)

[SlackTime]

Atlantis?

They might be Giants.

[annoyed]

The most common interpretation (doesn't make it correct) is that this refers to Christopher Columbus, but then he never set foot upon the "North American continent" at all...But the Book of Mormon says he is led to the "promised land"! - SlackTime

No, the Book of Mormon does not say "Columbus" despite the fact history books give him credit, the designation of a National Holiday in honor of his discovery, etc., the Book of Mormon says "many" Gentiles would be led here "by the Spirit of God."

As Nephi was being shown "in vision" the implication is intention and the domino affect that can be seen and traced by the Spirit of God. Columbus IS credited with opening the way for the "Americas" and so, he deserves credit. It's the "multitudes" that came you should identify, not hard to miss.

What about Noah?http://scriptures.lds.org/en/mosiah/11/6,8,17-18,27,29#6

How many generations does it take to build a stone temple? Several. What Noah built was structured by WOOD, and took months, not years or several generations. And when it was destroyed, it burned within HOURS.

From the wiki article: Book of Mormon/Geography/Definition of "continent"

"This continent" definition as presented does not represent what the angel meant. "This land" does. It says they thought they were on an "island." How can anyone, in all sincerity believe Western New York, with a Land Northward surrounded by FOUR SEAS, and a Land Southward surrounded by three, does not work, is beyond reason, imo.

[John T]

One question for you... Will the real Mt. Sinai please stand up?!

That is another topic for another thread on another day.

Let's deal with the OP here, LDS geography.

[Zakuska]

That is another topic for another thread on another day.

Let's deal with the OP here, LDS geography.

Yes it is. But it does make your argument RE. LDS don't know where Cumorah is, look rather silly in comparison.

[Zakuska]

How many generations does it take to build a stone temple? Several.

It took BY and the early Mormons 1 Generation to build one. (Salt Lake temple took 40 years)

[Anijen]

Annoyed

There is ignorance disguised as confusion. Thanks to David Whitmer's FIRST HAND statements by a Nephite, we know:

We don't know. CFR on it being first hand.

Facts won't sway your position.

First give me some facts, you parading a statement and saying it is a fact does not make it so.

You feel safe with the majority.

Actually I feel safe but I do not think my view is in the majority. It might be among scholars, but to date most members IMO don't subscribe to a mesoamerican final battle.

Prophecy has no bearing whatsoever

.I think you are reading into the prophecy what you want to see.

I am sad for you, the majority (for now), the only reason anyone should be looking into the geography is to learn what blessings and promises, responsibilities and cursings are tied to the land. This knowledge is everything, I'm sad it has been overlooked.

Don't be sad. I am a stalwart active temple going member. I doubt my salvation hinges on the correct geography of the BoM.

[Wiki Wonka]

"This continent" definition as presented does not represent what the angel meant.

You feel qualified to interpret what the angel (or Joseph) meant in the face of the given meaning of the term in the 1820s?

"This land" does.

You are beginning to sound very much like a Bruce Porter presentation I once attended. He insisted over and over and over again that we had to interpret the scriptural phrase "this land" the way he defined it. He literally stood there and dictated to us how we had to interpret the scriptures. I was most "annoyed."

[notHagoth7]

You forgot the prophecy in verse 12:

Was this Columbus? If it was, then it is important to note that Columbus never landed in North America.

But Leif did.

[annoyed]

We don't know. CFR on it being first hand.

The CFR was given, you probably overlooked it going from thread to thread.

I think you are reading into the prophecy what you want to see. Don't be sad. I am a stalwart active temple going member. I doubt my salvation hinges on the correct geography of the BoM.

You confirmed my sentiments. You feel safe with the majority of temple going professors.

It took BY and the early Mormons 1 Generation to build one. (Salt Lake temple took 40 years)

That doesn't compare.

You feel qualified to interpret what the angel (or Joseph) meant in the face of the given meaning of the term in the 1820s?

My response was to the definition cited. I gave two accounts, together the meaning is clear. Care to give a definition for "this land?"

You are beginning to sound very much like a Bruce Porter presentation I once attended. He insisted over and over and over again that we had to interpret the scriptural phrase "this land" the way he defined it. He literally stood there and dictated to us how we had to interpret the scriptures. I was most "annoyed."

You mean the Hebrew meaning of the phrase? Probably more than you could understand. He just did not realize it.

[cdowis]

The most common interpretation (doesn't make it correct) is that this refers to Christopher Columbus, but then he never set foot upon the "North American continent" at all, and the closest that he got was on his fourth voyage when he sailed the coast of the Yucatan peninsula

Can we assume that this is a poor attempt at making a joke. I think most intelligent people would agree that columbus discovered America.

[Paul McNabb]

How many generations does it take to build a stone temple? Several.

Umm, no. Each of the 100+ pyramids of Egypt was built within a single generation. In fact, most estimates for building a large pyramid are around 10 to 20 years. It has been estimated that to build the Great Pyramid it took 5,000 to 10,000 men, some working seasonally, 20 years or less.

As noted earlier, the Salt Lake Temple took 40 years (actually less than that since part of the time it wasn't under construction) and they had up to 150 men working on the temple at a time.

So a large, beautiful stone temple could probably be built in 5 to 10 years, no problem.

Of course, Noah might have had some advantages in building stone buildings. Zeniff's people had been given multiple cities, at least one of which had been walled. So there could easily have been quite a bit of stone around for them to use without having to quarry it all fresh. This, by the way, was extremely common in earlier times---people frequently tore down older buildings and reused the stone to make new ones.

[Anijen]

Anijen,

We don't know. CFR on it being first hand.

The CFR was given, you probably overlooked it going from thread to thread.

I am not going to let you off that easy. The reason I called for the CFR is I reread all the post and the one I saw was definitely not first hand. So per board rules please cite your source.

[annoyed]

Umm, no. Each of the 100+ pyramids of Egypt was built within a single generation. In fact, most estimates for building a large pyramid are around 10 to 20 years. It has been estimated that to build the Great Pyramid it took 5,000 to 10,000 men, some working seasonally, 20 years or less.

Of course, Noah might have had some advantages in building stone buildings. Zeniff's people had been given multiple cities, at least one of which had been walled. So there could easily have been quite a bit of stone around for them to use without having to quarry it all fresh. This, by the way, was extremely common in earlier times---people frequently tore down older buildings and reused the stone to make new ones.

First off, we're speaking of Mesoamerican temples, and second, Noah did not use stone. Move on.

I am not going to let you off that easy. The reason I called for the CFR is I reread all the post and the one I saw was definitely not first hand. So per board rules please cite your source.

Will it change your position?

[Anijen]

Will it change your position?

It doesn't matter you need to quote your source. Now please what is your source. CFR

[Paul McNabb]

You have not one fulfilled prophecy in Mesoamerica, whereas in Western New York, we have them all, including:

Nephi's vision in 1 Nephi 13 describes the Promised Land clearly:

To claim that these prophecies help us understand where within the hemisphere the Book of Mormon took place is silly. Such an argument is based on ignorance and/or chauvinism. Since Lehi's descendants would be spread throughout the entire hemisphere by 1500 (with either an HGT or an LGT assumption), and since Europeans invaded and pillaged the entire hemisphere, and since religiously motivated Europeans colonized all parts of the hemisphere, these specific prophecies apply throughout the hemisphere.

Gentiles are moved by the Spirit of God to come to the Promised Land. (v. 13)

This also applies to what brought many Europeans to North, Central, and South America.

They leave lands of captivity. (v. 13)

The "captivity" refers to the great and abominable church, which would apply to any Europeans leaving from any European nation and arriving anywhere in the western hemisphere.

Many multitudes come. (v. 14)

This applies to the Spanish in South, Central, and North America as well as the English.

The Indians are scattered by them. (v. 14)

This certainly applies everywhere in the Americas. It was worst for those in the Carribean and Mexico.

They are white with fair skin. (v. 15)

This applies to all the Europeans and to all of the Americas.

They buy the Promised Land. (v. 15)

No. The scripture says that they "obtained" it. This applies throughout the Americas wherever the Europeans invaded.

They humble themselves before God. (v. 16)

This applies to Europeans landing throughout the hemisphere.

The Spirit of God is with them. (v. 16)

This applies to Europeans landing throughout the hemisphere.

Their mother countries come to battle against them. (v. 17)

This happened throughout the hemisphere. Spain and Portugal also fought to keep their colonies from breaking away and becoming independent nations.

They come on the waters and on the land. (v. 17)

This happened throughout the hemisphere as the colonies became independent.

The Gentiles are delivered from all nations. (v. 19)

This happened throughout the hemisphere. There are only a few tiny tracts of land and islands in the entire western hemisphere that are still controlled from outside the hemisphere.

One could argue, there is no merit in pursuing a model if it first does not match prophecy.

But since all of these prophecies apply to all places throughout the hemisphere, we can't use them to pinpoint where within the hemisphere Nephi was seeing in his vision. Of course, he may have been looking at different places for each of these prophecies. Nephi may have been shown Christopher Columbus in the Carribean, Cortez in Mexico, the pilgrims in New England, the Brazilian War of Independence, and many other spots. It may be that Nephi's vision was a collage of what would happen throughout the hemisphere to "the seed of his brethren."

Americans are used to hearing their own founding stories, but lots of religious Europeans came to other parts of the hemisphere to live and to set up missions.

[annoyed]

It doesn't matter you need to quote your source. Now please what is your source. CFR

See #17, can't wait to hear your converting story...

[Anijen]

See #17, can't wait to hear your converting story...

Post #17 Oh please! It definitely isn't a first hand account. It was quoted from a letter by P. Willhelm Poulson to the editor of the Deseret Evening News in 1878.

I guess I really don't have to take you seriously now, nor do I any longer have to question the credibility of your posts.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Hmmm, shall we approach that verse metaphorically?

I think that that is impossible. Good luck trying to make that verse a mertphor.

[annoyed]

To claim that these prophecies help us understand where within the hemisphere the Book of Mormon took place is silly. Such an argument is based on ignorance and/or chauvinism. Since Lehi's descendants would be spread throughout the entire hemisphere by 1500 (with either an HGT or an LGT assumption), and since Europeans invaded and pillaged the entire hemisphere, and since religiously motivated Europeans colonized all parts of the hemisphere, these specific prophecies apply throughout the hemisphere.

This ignorance is hardly worthy of any attention, nevertheless, we are called to forbear and suffer long...

Your sweeping generalizations don't help your indefensable position. Pray tell, where is the land, currently owned and inhabited by white people, whose previous inhabitants were scatterd buy not destroyed?

Next, do you disclaim all connections between the United States' history and status from all Book of Mormon prophecy?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Post #17 Oh please! It definitely isn't a first hand account. It was quoted from a letter by P. Willhelm Poulson to the editor of the Deseret Evening News in 1878.

I guess I really don't have to take you seriously now, nor do I any longer have to question the credibility of your posts.

Just when I thought it was getting good, it is over with that last post.

[Paul McNabb]

This ignorance is hardly worthy of any attention, nevertheless, we are called to forbear and suffer long...

Thank you for your polite and considerate response.

Your sweeping generalizations don't help your indefensable position.

Sorry, but YOU were the one who raised the issue with generalizations. You claimed that those prophecies applied to the United States and not to elsewhere. But in every case we have similar fulfillment elsewhere in the Americas. I assumed that you would be able to quickly draw the connection to actual events. Do you really not know examples of fulfillment of those prophecies in other western hemisphere locations?

Pray tell, where is the land, currently owned and inhabited by white people, whose previous inhabitants were scatterd buy not destroyed?

Argentina. Of course Canada also qualifies. So does Mexico. So does Panama. So does Chile. In fact, essentially every country in the western hemisphere qualifies under Nephi's prophecies. Essentially everywhere in the hemisphere "whites" came in, scattered the inhabitants, obtained the land for an inheritance, rebelled against their European "owners," and are free of outside domination today. And it is a sad fact that in virtually every country in the western hemisphere "non-Lamanite whites" have wealth, land ownership, and political power far out of proportion to their population.

Next, do you disclaim all connections between the United States' history and status from all Book of Mormon prophecy?

I have never disclaimed ANY connection between the United States' history and any Book of Mormon prophecy. But the prophecies have also been fulfilled elsewhere in the Americas where Lehi's descendants live.

It is YOUR argument that the prophecies help us locate the Book of Mormon. The burden of proof is on YOU to show that those prophecies have only been fulfilled in the United States. For more than 100 years prior to the pilgrims' settling in New England there were Spanish settlers and missionaries coming to the Americas. If you haven't read up on the immigration to Mexico and other Spanish areas in the 16th - 19th centuries, you might want to start by simply looking at wikipedia (shudder).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_Mexico

A minute or two on the Internet will quickly let you see how your chauvinistic and simplified history of the United States is out of step with what actually happened when the Europeans arrived in the Americas.

Are you familiar with ex-Muslim Catholics coming into the promised land? Are you familiar with the people who felt they were led by God to come from Spain and Portugal to what is now Latin America?

The tiny band of pilgrims were Johnny-come-latelies for God-inspired white people coming from Europe to the New World.

[Cold Steel]

Was this Columbus? If it was, then it is important to note that Columbus never landed in North America.

Wrong.

He landed in Cuba, which is part of North America.

[annoyed]

Just when I thought it was getting good, it is over with that last post.

Post #17 Oh please! It definitely isn't a first hand account. It was quoted from a letter by P. Willhelm Poulson to the editor of the Deseret Evening News in 1878.

I guess I really don't have to take you seriously now, nor do I any longer have to question the credibility of your posts.

You don't take other facts, verses, or witnesses seriously anyway, nonetheless, David was aware of the Deseret News article and reviewed it. We have the witness of others who testify Joseph himself said there was a Second Depository in Palmyra.

To recap, those respecting Western New York have the following:

1. A Nephite told David the area of Palmyra was called "Cumorah."
2. No other land was ever called Cumorah.
3. No other hill was ever called the "Hill Cumorah."
4. A Second Depository was descibed by David and others - in Palmyra.

[annoyed]

Sorry, but YOU were the one who raised the issue with generalizations. You claimed that those prophecies applied to the United States and not to elsewhere. But in every case we have similar fulfillment elsewhere in the Americas. I assumed that you would be able to quickly draw the connection to actual events. Do you really not know examples of fulfillment of those prophecies in other western hemisphere locations?

It is naive to believe that the average person reading Nephi 13 associates those prophecies with any country but the United States. LDS Church writings are replete with such acknowledgements.

What's more revealing, are the titles countries have. For example, which country has a "Statue of Liberty" and is called the "Land of the Free" or the "Greatest Nation on Earth?" We recognize by our history, our Founding Fathers, our founding documents, federal Proclamations and so forth that America IS the land prophesied of.

You on the other hand cannot compete, with ANY other land, ANYWHERE. Even as we speak, it is common knowledge what country sides with Israel, and has supported her all the while. While Nephi 13 contains many fulfilled prophecies with the United States, there are OTHER prophecies Meso-theorists cannot claim either. For you to sit here and speak out of both sides of your mouth is belittling to everyone else:

I have never disclaimed ANY connection between the United States' history and any Book of Mormon prophecy. But the prophecies have also been fulfilled elsewhere in the Americas where Lehi's descendants live.

I suggest you realize the dishonesty in your approach. On the one hand you will not deny that America fulfills Nephi 13, and other prophecies, but on the other you won't claim BoM lands are in America???