Nephite "machines"

[jkfrost]

Go here, and fast forward to the chapter that starts on page 224.

(That chapter was an early draft, and is in dire need of a rewrite. But it'll have to do for now.)

No. I have no frame of reference for that.

wow - thanks for the link - those "orbs" almost sound like a U&T.

[jkfrost]

You never saw "Evil Dead" triology?

Nope - I am kinda behind in my movies and my music,

I just started watching the Goonies last week ( and was introduced to PCD not too long ago ) Yikes .

Guess I'll have to put evil dead people on my list of things to watch ( or watch out for ).

[notHagoth7]

wow - thanks for the link - those "orbs" almost sound like a U&T.

You're quite welcome.

To a limited degree, there certainly are parallels between the U&T and the Liahona.

But I'm not of the opinion that later orbs actually functioned in any such manner. (They were symbolic reminders).

I think they simply represented an earlier device - and served as a cultural prop, an object lesson, a physical reminder for rulers to seek God's guidance in just rule.

[jkfrost]

You're quite welcome.

To a limited degree, there certainly are parallels between the U&T and the Liahona.

But I'm not of the opinion that later orbs actually functioned in any such manner. (They were symbolic reminders).

I think they simply represented an earlier device - and served as a cultural prop, an object lesson, a physical reminder for rulers to seek God's guidance in just rule.

speaking of judgment and the U&T:

Num 27:21 And he shall stand before Eleazar the priest, who shall ask counsel

for him after the judgment of Urim before the LORD:

at his word shall they go out, and at his word they shall come in, both he,

and all the children of Israel with him, even all the congregation.

[JAHS]

Here's an ancient machine for you. A 2100 year old computer running on Windows 200BC OS.

http://www.palenews.net/2009/05/first-computer-may-be-2100-years-old.html

[poulsenll]

K.

Actually, that wasn't my initial intent w/the thread.

I'm guessing such "machinery," whatever it was, would have most likely been made out of wood, as you suggested with pulleys. So there is slim chance of such things surviving to our day. I was hoping, however, that there might be a few clues about potential meanings/utilizations of machinery in ancient murals or the like.

The use of tools has always been used to define human cultures. As they become more complicated we often refer to them as machinery. However, any mechanism that enhances man's ability to interact and or change his environment can be refered as machinery. There are numerous murals and pottery vases depicting human use of tools from ovens for firing pottery to axes for cutting wood.

Larry P

[notHagoth7]

The use of tools has always been used to define human cultures. As they become more complicated we often refer to them as machinery. However, any mechanism that enhances man's ability to interact and or change his environment can be refered as machinery.

No argument here. I believe, however, that there is a gap between what "can be" referred to as machinery, and what actually would be referred to by that term (via a prophetic translator).

There are numerous murals and pottery vases depicting human use of tools from ovens for firing pottery to axes for cutting wood.

But would Joseph have considered such tools to be "machinery?"

I don't claim to have a definitive answer. But I suspect the answer would be no.

[poulsenll]

No argument here. I believe, however, that there is a gap between what "can be" referred to as machinery, and what actually would be referred to by that term (via a prophetic translator).

But would Joseph have considered such tools to be "machinery?"

I don't claim to have a definitive answer. But I suspect the answer would be no.

I tend to agree with you. I think the BofM culture was far more sophisticated than we appreciate. However, little or no extensive investigations have been carried out in the areas where present theories suggest the culture was located. Much of the Grijalva river valley is under water and there does not appear to be much interest in further research in the area. The Church, other than its support for the NWAF has no interest in looking for archeological support for the BofM. However, John Clark has been replaced as head of the NWAF and this might produce a different policy in the future.

The Mayan culture, according to my study of the BofM , was non Nephite and may have had little direct contact with the Nephite culture and may have seen little or no need or desire to adopt any innovitive bits of machinery. Their adherence to religeous calendrics and ritual warfare would, in my opinion, make them somewhat conservative in adopting new ideas. This is depicted in the Book of Mormon's description of the Lamanite's not adopting the new type of armor used by the Nephites.

Larry P

[jkfrost]

But would Joseph have considered such tools to be "machinery?"

Let him speak for himself - how did he use the word?

"Oh, all ye rich men of the Latter-day Saints from abroad,

I would invite you bring up some of your money -- your gold,

your silver, and you precious things, and give to the Temple.

We want iron, steel, spades, and quarrying and mechanical tools.

It would be a good plan to get up a forge to manufacture iron,

and bring in raw materials of every variety,

and erect manufacturing establishments of all kinds,

and surround the rapids with mills and machinery."

Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith : Section 6:1843-44

Did the Nephites use a forge?

How did they make their clothes?

"The 19th century was the age of machine tools -

tools that made tools -

machines that made parts for other machines, including interchangeable parts.

The assembly line was invented during the 19th century,

speeding up the factory production of consumer goods."

http://inventors.about.com/od/timelines/a/Nineteenth.htm

Sense we are on the subject:

When she's dancing next to me

"Blinding me with science - science!"

"Science!"

I can hear machinery

"Blinding me with science - science!"

"Science!"

It's poetry in motion

And now she's making love to me

The spheres're in commotion

The elements in harmony

She blinded me with science

"She blinded me with science!"

And hit me with technology

[notHagoth7]

But would Joseph have considered such tools to be "machinery?"

Let him speak for himself - how did he use the word?

...It would be a good plan to get up a forge to manufacture iron,

and bring in raw materials of every variety,

and erect manufacturing establishments of all kinds,

and surround the rapids with mills and machinery."

Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith : Section 6:1843-44

(Great song, btw.)

As mentioned earlier in the thread, if textile looms were part of what constituted Nephite "machinery", that works fine for me.

The same with water mills and similar devices. Such things fit the context of Jarom which implies that their machinery played some role in increasing their wealth as a people (and perhaps their ability to defend themselves). I'm simply interested in seeing examples/evidence of such things from the ancient Americas.

In the meantime, to broaden the discussion, here's an example of machinery from Northern Europe - a harvester - first described in detail in the 1st century AD - and attested to on three other monuments - all deriving from the same region of northern Europe:

Europe recorded a surprising number of such cultural innovations roughly between 55 BC and 75 AD. Based on several strands of evidence, I have considerable reason to believe Nephite colonists had a hand in introducing several of such innovations into the European continent. Which is why Jarom's passage struck me as beyond interesting. But I've seen little evidence for some of those innovations in the Americas. So I'm interested in finding out whether things like the European innovations existed in the Americas, or whether they first emerged in Europe. (The change required/involved in emigration sometimes stirs innovation in people.)

This is a condensed version of something else I've written on such innovations. (Has anyone else read a book called Writing to Learn?)

Thoughts?