Name change from Saul to Paul

[ed2276]

It just makes it all the more curious that he chose the name "Paulus"....

Cr 15:9 For I [Paul] am the least of the apostles

Could Paul be using a word-play on his name, or did he really think so little of himself?

Although, the name could have been given him in reference to his physical stature:

[Obiwan]

In early America the Prophet Joseph restored the Gospel to the Gentiles, but laid the foundation for a coming Latter-day SHIFT wherein the Lord will turn against the Gentiles and restore again to His ancient covenant people Israel all their former blessings.

Richard

Just wanted to make sure people know that the above is a COC (Church of Christ former RLDS) belief, not actually an LDS belief.

LDS don't interpret the scriptures you all get this idea from the same way.

[structurecop]

Just wanted to make sure people know that the above is a COC (Church of Christ former RLDS) belief, not actually an LDS belief.

LDS don't interpret the scriptures you all get this idea from the same way.

I thought Richard belonged to a fundamentalist sect.

[Joseph Antley]

Joseph Smith commented that Paul was a very short man. Did he know that Paul's name meant "small," or is that just a weird coincidence?

[Joseph Antley]

Just wanted to make sure people know that the above is a COC (Church of Christ former RLDS) belief, not actually an LDS belief.

LDS don't interpret the scriptures you all get this idea from the same way.

As far as I know, that isn't a Community of Christ/RLDS Restorationist belief, and erichard isn't a member of either group.

[Thorkyll]

The OP suggests that Paulus is Hellenistic, but no, Paulus is a Latin, not a Greek name. I'm surprised no-one has pointed this out already. Paul was a Roman citizen, and since he was basically ministering to the Gentiles, it is clear that he would choose a Gentile name, and to emphasize that citizenship (which served as a protection due to the rights of citizens), of course he would choose a Roman/Latin name. The other speculations, regarding "short", "little", or "humble" are of course appropo, and probably all served Paul's purpose.

Nothing is wrong with Greek philosophy, except where it works against true Gospel doctrine, which is what some LDS have a problem with, not that any are anti-Hellenic.

I already stated that Paulus was a Latin name, but the Romans were clearly hellenistic. Besides, I don't know Greek, but wouldn't the New Testament have used the Greek form of the name? You'd think the Latin version would only come out in English translations because English is influenced by Latin.

[maklelan]

A Gentile who converted to Judaism would have changed from having a hellenic name to having a Hebrew name.

Yet when "Saul" converted to Christianity, he changed from having a Hebrew name to having a hellenic name (Paulus).

This is no small matter. The taking on of a new name implies change of a more fundamental nature, such as spiritual rebirth.

To me, it seems a blatant admission that Christianity is hellenistic. What do you think?

It means Paul used a Greek name in his preaching to the Greek world. I don't think it speaks in any capacity to the nature of Christianity itself, although I am of the opinion that by the end of the first century CE it had become largely hellenized.

[ERMD]

Hellenistic influences on Judaism are partially responsible for the cherished beliefs about God all us modern Christians (including Mormons) hold.

Hellenistic philosophy has no influence on LDS theology.

[erichard]

Just wanted to make sure people know that the above is a COC (Church of Christ former RLDS) belief, not actually an LDS belief.

LDS don't interpret the scriptures you all get this idea from the same way.

Hi Obiwan,

That is my interpretation of the following scriptures. You are welcome to show me what is incorrect with my interpretation.

(I am not COC, by the way. That would be Uncle Dale. I do not consider myself a "fundamentalist" either, as I have always rejected all Woolley and LeBaron claims to Priesthood keys. But I do believe in the Second Book of Commandments and believe the LDS church will eventually be cleansed of Gentile pollutions.)

But notice the four periods of manifestations this verse speaks of:

And the time cometh that he shall manifest himself unto all nations, both unto the Jews and also unto the Gentiles; and after he has manifested himself unto the Jews and also unto the Gentiles, then he shall manifest himself unto the Gentiles and also unto the Jews, and the last shall be first, and the first shall be last. --1 Nephi 13:42

This tells of the Latter-day SHIFT:

7 Behold, because of their belief in me, saith the Father, and because of the unbelief of you, O house of Israel, in THE LATTER DAY shall the truth come unto the Gentiles, that the fulness of these things shall be made known unto them.

...

10 And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you: At that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations; and if they shall do all those things, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father, I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them.

11 And then will I remember my covenant which I have made unto my people, O house of Israel, and I will bring my gospel unto them.

12 And I will show unto thee, O house of Israel, that the Gentiles shall not have power over you; but I will remember my covenant unto you, O house of Israel, and ye shall come unto the knowledge of the fulness of my gospel.

13 But if the Gentiles will repent and return unto me, saith the Father, behold they shall be numbered among my people, O house of Israel. --3 Nephi 16

There are more scriptures with support this doctrine of a latter-day SHIFT from Gentile to Israel, but these are quite clear, are they not?

Back to the OP:

Before Paul was sent to the Gentiles, John the Baptist was sent to the Jews and was rejected. The Prophet Joseph Smith taught very clearly that John turned the keys against the Jews. In fact, it is also in D&C 84:28

For he [John the Baptist] was baptized while he was yet in his childhood, and was ordained by the angel of God at the time he was eight days old unto this power, to overthrow the kingdom of the Jews, and to make straight the way of the Lord before the face of his people, to prepare them for the coming of the Lord, in whose hand is given all power.

You might want to read all the D&C verses that mention the Gentiles. All this supports what I said, as far as I can see.

Richard

[structurecop]

Hellenistic philosophy has no influence on LDS theology.

Yeah, okay.

[Traela]

Many Jewish parents today give their children both a gentile name and a Jewish name. Perhaps Saul/Paul's parents (who I assume also were Roman citizens) did the same thing. In which case, Saul just dropped his Jewish name when he dropped his Jewish identity. Using his gentile name would then be a symbol of his embracing a more gentile-oriented worldview.

[Thorkyll]

Many Jewish parents today give their children both a gentile name and a Jewish name. Perhaps Saul/Paul's parents (who I assume also were Roman citizens) did the same thing. In which case, Saul just dropped his Jewish name when he dropped his Jewish identity. Using his gentile name would then be a symbol of his embracing a more gentile-oriented worldview.

That kind of disproves Paulus' false claims about his having coming from a very religious background

and of having been brought up as a pharisee of pharisees and all that trumped up story.

Very religious Jews do not give their children a gentile name, and they certainly didn't back then.

[LeSellers]

Remind me what Paul's [name] meant. . . didn't it mean something, or am I mistaken?

It means "small", and "Saul" means "small" as well.

"Paulus" is not Greek, it is Latin. (There is a Greek word/name with the same root that also means "small".)

Lehi

[Thorkyll]

It means "small", and "Saul" means "small" as well.

"Paulus" is not Greek, it is Latin. (There is a Greek word/name with the same root that also means "small".)

Lehi

"Saul" doesn not mean "small".

[The_Monk]

Paul did not take a new name at his "conversion." Rather, like many in his time, he had a name in his own cultural language (Hebrew/Aramaic), and one in the language of the culturally dominant group, just as Peter/Kepha and many others. It is likely Paul's name is a family name, given to his parents (if they were manumitted slaves who received Roman citizenship, as was often the case.)

This isn't any different from Asians in the US who go by Xiaojin among other speakers of their own language, but, say, Will or John to English speakers.

[maklelan]

That kind of disproves Paulus' false claims about his having coming from a very religious background

and of having been brought up as a pharisee of pharisees and all that trumped up story.

Very religious Jews do not give their children a gentile name, and they certainly didn't back then.

That's absolutely untrue. It happened all the time. A few Hasmonean high priests: Alexander, Aristobulus, Antigonus, Hyrcanus. Appointed by Herod: Theophilus, Elionaeus. Those are just the Jewish people from before Paul's time who ruled over the temple. Getting into the commonry it was no doubt even more common. Why do you think there was a Greek translation of the scriptures executed before the Common Era?

[Deborah]

The first mention I could find of Saul being referred to as Paul was in Acts 13: 9 "Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him." It appears as someone mentioned that this was a name he already had.

In Acts 9:26 there is an interesting account: "And when Saul was come to Jerusalem, he assayed to join himself to the disciples: but they were all afraid of him, and believed not that he was a disciple." I wonder if this is the reason he started using his other name. Saul of Tarsus had an unpleasant reputation among the Christian converts. It appears to me the reason he started going by his other name was simply so he could teach more easily without the stigma of his prior reputation. It had no other significance than that.

[Thorkyll]

That's absolutely untrue. It happened all the time. A few Hasmonean high priests: Alexander, Aristobulus, Antigonus, Hyrcanus. Appointed by Herod: Theophilus, Elionaeus. Those are just the Jewish people from before Paul's time who ruled over the temple. Getting into the commonry it was no doubt even more common.

Paul claimed to be a pharisee of pharisees. Even if he had a gentile name, if he was truly a pharisee of pharisees he would not just discard his Hebrew name and go galavanting around the Empire using the gentile name; which is not to even mention his pagan teachings, which are the main reason why I find it absurd that this guy's name change --- or change in which name he used --- was not important.

Why do you think there was a Greek translation of the scriptures executed before the Common Era?

Because the Egyptian king forced Jewish scholars from Alexandria to translate the Torah into Greek.

I've no idea who translated the Prophets and Writings into Greek, though --- it certainly wasn't them.

Whoever it was must have been Christian.

Incidentally, there are indications that even the Torah part of this translation is different to the one

written by these Jewish scholars. The translation of the text into Greek was not seen as some

good thing by Orthodox Jews; in fact, it was a travesty, for obvious reasons. If Paul was really a

"pharisee of pharisees", he'd never use a dodgy Greek translation.

[volgadon]

Thank you, Maklelan. I'll exapnd a little. Proselytes were not required to change their names to a Hebrew one. Targum Onkelos, an Aramaic translation of the Pentateuch, was dne by a convert. A Greek translation of the OlD Testament, to combat the influence of the Christians using the septuagint, as well as emphasising the 'proper, rabbinic interpretation, was carried out by Aquillas, a proselyte. One of r. Akiva's disciples was Minmin the Egyptian convert.

Another was Niphat (interesting, innit).

The first of the tanaim (the Jewish sages from the beginning of the Hellenistic era until after r Yehuda Hanasi) was Antigonus of Socho. He was prominent enough to be given a place in Piirkei Avoth (sayings of the Fathers), one of THE pillars of Judaism and Jewish thought throughout the ages.

Avtalion was Shemayah's companion and together they were the leading pharisees of their day. As is quite obvious, Avtalion is a Greek name. They seem to have run their academy like a greek one. Their disciples were Hillel and Shamay, two of the greatest pharisees of any day. Hillel's influence on the course of Judaism is immense.

Nicodemus, if I'm not mistaken, is a Greek name, carried by several prominent pharisees. Nakdimon (Nicodemus) ben Gurion is one mentioned in the talmud.

I think r. Tarfon is anothr bearer of an Hellenic name.

Yannay (Jannaeus) is another classic Greek name, born by many pharisees.

Severl individuals are known by the name Simon, not Shimeon, this is a Greek variant! There is also r. Levitas, that is how it appears in Hebrew- Levitas, not Levi.

Another is Sumakhos.

A significant portion of the sages have Greek patronymics, this shows they came from an environment where Greek was known, used, and not only that, but part of people's culture. they were familiar even with Greek mythology. Inside the Jewish burial complex of Beit-Shearim was a sarcophagus with a racy depiction Leda and the swan!!!!!

The villa in Sepphoris is proposed by some as r. Yehudah the patriarch's mansion, if so, then here was THE leader of the Jews with a very expensive mosaic of the Dionysus myth.

The dress of Jews of the time was practicaly indistinguishable from regular Greek ones.

Shema Yisrael (Hear o Israel) was allowed to be said in Greek. Some of the sages weren't happy, but theirs wass a minority view. No Greek king forced the Jews of Alexandria to translate the Pentaeuch. The legend goes that Ptolemy commisioned a translation for his library from 72 elders of Israel. No hint of force or coercion.

Most likely, th hellenised community of Alexandria wanted their children to read the bible in their own tongue and so commisioned a translation. The rest was translated by different people over a number of years, but certainly by Jews. Gedalya Alon wass of the opinion that the text used reflected a slightly different set, rather than a mistranslation. This opinion is borne out in a large part by the DSS.

The Wisdom of Ben Sira was translated into greek by the author's grandson.

Much of 2 Maccabees is the work of Jason (another greek name) of Cyrenaea.

R. Yehuda once declared that people should speak either Greek or Hebrew, rather than Aramaic.

In Galilean synagogue inscriptions we can see names like Justus and Monimus, who made sizeable donations to the synagogue, and were probably among the rulers of the synagogue.

There are plenty of greek names on jewish sarcophogai.

The Mishna, Talmuds, Toseftas, midrashes and other early works are replete with Greek words and terms.

There is also a subtle Roman influence at work in naming practices.

The Jews of Israel weren't dogmatic about names, in fact most Jewish names of the period are not Hebrew but Babylonian or Aramaic, so you can imagine what the diaspora was like. Paul was a member of the diaspora.

Shaul and Polos are not even remotely similar in Hebrew. Paul could have been a given name, or it could have been a nickname. Nicknames were a common way of refering to people, for instance, r. Akiva's father-in-law was known as Calba Savua (well-fed dog) because he never turned the poor away from his door without feeding them a hearty meal. One of his associates was called Tzitzit Hakeset because he would always entertain visitors, reclining on a fancy sofa.

Akiva's nikcname was the Fountainhead.

Children of proselytes were often known either by the patronymic Bar Giora or Ben Gerim.

In Sayings of the Fathers there is a sage by the name of Shmuel Hakatan. Samuel the small, or perhaps, the lesser, or the minor.

Zeira was an Aramaic name meaning small. Perhaps Paul is the Latin equivalent, or perhaps Paul's parents liked the name or had a patron with that name.

Cephas is obviously a nickname, though what its significance was, I do not know. Unlike Saul-Paul, the wordplay does work in both Aramaic and Hebrew.