Lehi followed the Fraknesense trail

[Glenn101]

Potter does not think much of Khor Kharfot as "Bountiful" but Khor Rhori has its problems. Khor Kharfot does have hardwood trees, some as large as forty feet in circumference. And as for rafts here is a little tidbit I found:

"Still on things nautical, a former MIT undergraduate student took time out from her dual majors in nuclear and mechanical engineering to mess about with a replica of the large ocean going rafts which plied the seas between Chile and western Mexico over a thousand years ago. A strong pre-Columbian connection between the Andean and Mesoamerican civilizations emerged from analysis of the metallurgy used in producing silver and copper goods, as well as the trade in the prized spondylus shell beads. Now detailed computer analysis of the replica's seaworthiness, handling and cargo capacity demonstrate the feasibility of ancient oceanic trade routes. At 10-30 tons capacity, the rafts could make the six to eight week voyage during the trade wind window (the rafts couldn't sail again the wind). The MIT paper is the first to use advanced marine engineering analysis to identify the design parameters of ancient water craft - quite a stretch from nuclear engineering!"

The above can be found here, with a picture of the type of raft in question? You'll have to scroll down to near the bottom of the page. Could this be something like Nephi and company built?

Glenn

[handys003]

Potter does not think much of Khor Kharfot as "Bountiful" but Khor Rhori has its problems. Khor Kharfot does have hardwood trees, some as large as forty feet in circumference. And as for rafts here is a little tidbit I found:

"Still on things nautical, a former MIT undergraduate student took time out from her dual majors in nuclear and mechanical engineering to mess about with a replica of the large ocean going rafts which plied the seas between Chile and western Mexico over a thousand years ago. A strong pre-Columbian connection between the Andean and Mesoamerican civilizations emerged from analysis of the metallurgy used in producing silver and copper goods, as well as the trade in the prized spondylus shell beads. Now detailed computer analysis of the replica's seaworthiness, handling and cargo capacity demonstrate the feasibility of ancient oceanic trade routes. At 10-30 tons capacity, the rafts could make the six to eight week voyage during the trade wind window (the rafts couldn't sail again the wind). The MIT paper is the first to use advanced marine engineering analysis to identify the design parameters of ancient water craft - quite a stretch from nuclear engineering!"

The above can be found here, with a picture of the type of raft in question? You'll have to scroll down to near the bottom of the page. Could this be something like Nephi and company built?

Glenn

Bwahaha these two?

I do not know where this student got her maritime education. The craft on the right would not survive a trans-oceanic route. Has she sailed even out of the harbor? Does the computer even factor in northern or southern swells ranging from 40 to 60 feet high. Besides it's already been proven by ancient Hawaiian voyaging canoes and Incan voyaging canoes they are far more seaworthy and capable of carrying large cargo. The trip from Hawaii to Tonga carried 15 crew and 75 tons of supplies. See the atachments of Hawaiian (Makali'i)and Incan. Note the similar hull and sail construction. Only the material is different as Hawaiians had hardwood such as Koa trees whereas Incans only had reeds.

I promise that little raft would be flipped, crushed, and rendered useless by the design.

Also whereas not noted by the two papers I pasted, in Potters DVD's he demonstrates the type of ship needed for such a voyage with experts from the US Navy engineers. He has shown the shipbuilders from Khor Rori design of crafts support the capability.

[Glenn101]

Bwahaha these two?

I do not know where this student got her maritime education. The craft on the right would not survive a trans-oceanic route. Has she sailed even out of the harbor? Does the computer even factor in northern or southern swells ranging from 40 to 60 feet high. Besides it's already been proven by ancient Hawaiian voyaging canoes and Incan voyaging canoes they are far more seaworthy and capable of carrying large cargo. The trip from Hawaii to Tonga carried 15 crew and 75 tons of supplies. See the atachments of Hawaiian (Makali'i)and Incan. Note the similar hull and sail construction. Only the material is different as Hawaiians had hardwood such as Koa trees whereas Incans only had reeds.

I promise that little raft would be flipped, crushed, and rendered useless by the design.

Also whereas not noted by the two papers I pasted, in Potters DVD's he demonstrates the type of ship needed for such a voyage with experts from the US Navy engineers. He has shown the shipbuilders from Khor Rori design of crafts support the capability.

I will repeat a section from my original post.:

"Now detailed computer analysis of the replica's seaworthiness, handling and cargo capacity demonstrate the feasibility of ancient oceanic trade routes. At 10-30 tons capacity, the rafts could make the six to eight week voyage during the trade wind window (the rafts couldn't sail again the wind). The MIT paper is the first to use advanced marine engineering analysis to identify the design parameters of ancient water craft - quite a stretch from nuclear engineering!"

Nephi notes " 2 Now I, Nephi, did not work the timbers after the manner which was learned by men, neither did I build the ship after the manner of men; but I did build it after the manner which the Lord had shown unto me; wherefore, it was not after the manner of men." (1 Nephi chapter 18). Sort of leaves out the Khor Rori designers.

Here is another link to rafts and answers some of Potter's critisism of the raft theory.

I'm not saying that is what happened. But the information is interesting.

Edited to add, I think that a design similar to the catamaran is entirely possible. They were not the ship's of Lehi's day but are a very stable design and scale well enough to provide the room that the Lehite party would need, including decks so that they could go "down into the ship".

Glenn

[handys003]

I will repeat a section from my original post.:

"Now detailed computer analysis of the replica's seaworthiness, handling and cargo capacity demonstrate the feasibility of ancient oceanic trade routes. At 10-30 tons capacity, the rafts could make the six to eight week voyage during the trade wind window (the rafts couldn't sail again the wind). The MIT paper is the first to use advanced marine engineering analysis to identify the design parameters of ancient water craft - quite a stretch from nuclear engineering!"

Nephi notes " 2 Now I, Nephi, did not work the timbers after the manner which was learned by men, neither did I build the ship after the manner of men; but I did build it after the manner which the Lord had shown unto me; wherefore, it was not after the manner of men." (1 Nephi chapter 18). Sort of leaves out the Khor Rori designers.

Here is another link to rafts and answers some of Potter's criticism of the raft theory.

I'm not saying that is what happened. But the information is interesting.

Edited to add, I think that a design similar to the catamaran is entirely possible. They were not the ship's of Lehi's day but are a very stable design and scale well enough to provide the room that the Lehite party would need, including decks so that they could go "down into the ship".

Glenn

Sorry didn't mean to upset you with the laughter. I value Heyedahl's Kon Tiki, but he was just fourtunate to not be caught in major storms. It took him 101 days to sail to Raroia atoll on the raft. We are talking about sailing from Oman to S. America and undoubtedly a craft such as the Kon Tiki would not have survived.

Let's go back to 1 Nephi 18:

Verse 5 and 6: 5 And it came to pass that the voice of the Lord came unto my father, that we should arise and go down into the ship.

6 And it came to pass that on the morrow, after we had prepared all things, much fruits and ^ameat from the wilderness, and honey in abundance, and provisions according to that which the Lord had commanded us, we did go down into the ship, with all our loading and our ^bseeds, and whatsoever thing we had brought with us, every one according to his age; wherefore, we did all go down into the ^cship, with our wives and our children

Both verses stress "into the ship" not "unto the ship", nor "onto the ship" which would imply walking down to the ship or on, but rather inside of it. Second it remarks "ship" not raft, nor canoe.

Now let's look at storm:

13 Wherefore, they knew not whither they should steer the ship, insomuch that there arose a great ^astorm, yea, a great and terrible tempest, and we were ^driven back upon the waters for the space of three days; and they began to be frightened exceedingly lest they should be drowned in the sea; nevertheless they did not loose me. 14 And on the fourth day, which we had been driven back, the tempest began to be exceedingly sore. <A name=15> 15 And it came to pass that we were about to be swallowed up in the depths of the sea. And after we had been driven back upon the waters for the space of four days, my brethren began to ^asee that the judgments of God were upon them, and that they must perish save that they should repent of their iniquities; wherefore, they came unto me, and loosed the bands which were upon my wrists, and behold they had swollen exceedingly; and also mine ankles were much swollen, and great was the soreness thereof.

Verse 13 -15 Shows a great storm, and not a small, but great. They were driven back for 4 days and almost swallowed up. indicating high seas. No raft even a larger version of Kon Tiki made with balsa wood would have survived the smashing waves over the bow of the raft. It would have shattered absolutely without a doubt. It would not matter if it was a hardwood like Koa. Twice the Hoku'lea and Makali'i suffered masts and rudder damage, and quite a few plankings were busted and lost at sea on some voyages. They were made out of Koa.

I can agree that it's more than likely the balsa raft could make it to an island in calm weather ,but that in storms no way. That's why Nephi also didn't use a raft.

Also as far as your catamaran I could see it possible, but really would that be considered a raft?

[Glenn101]

Sorry didn't mean to upset you with the laughter. I value Heyedahl's Kon Tiki, but he was just fourtunate to not be caught in major storms. It took him 101 days to sail to Raroia atoll on the raft. We are talking about sailing from Oman to S. America and undoubtedly a craft such as the Kon Tiki would not have survived.

Let's go back to 1 Nephi 18:

Verse 5 and 6: 5 And it came to pass that the voice of the Lord came unto my father, that we should arise and go down into the ship.

6 And it came to pass that on the morrow, after we had prepared all things, much fruits and ^ameat from the wilderness, and honey in abundance, and provisions according to that which the Lord had commanded us, we did go down into the ship, with all our loading and our ^bseeds, and whatsoever thing we had brought with us, every one according to his age; wherefore, we did all go down into the ^cship, with our wives and our children

Both verses stress "into the ship" not "unto the ship", nor "onto the ship" which would imply walking down to the ship or on, but rather inside of it. Second it remarks "ship" not raft, nor canoe.

Now let's look at storm:

13 Wherefore, they knew not whither they should steer the ship, insomuch that there arose a great ^astorm, yea, a great and terrible tempest, and we were ^driven back upon the waters for the space of three days; and they began to be frightened exceedingly lest they should be drowned in the sea; nevertheless they did not loose me. 14 And on the fourth day, which we had been driven back, the tempest began to be exceedingly sore. <A name=15> 15 And it came to pass that we were about to be swallowed up in the depths of the sea. And after we had been driven back upon the waters for the space of four days, my brethren began to ^asee that the judgments of God were upon them, and that they must perish save that they should repent of their iniquities; wherefore, they came unto me, and loosed the bands which were upon my wrists, and behold they had swollen exceedingly; and also mine ankles were much swollen, and great was the soreness thereof.

Verse 13 -15 Shows a great storm, and not a small, but great. They were driven back for 4 days and almost swallowed up. indicating high seas. No raft even a larger version of Kon Tiki made with balsa wood would have survived the smashing waves over the bow of the raft. It would have shattered absolutely without a doubt. It would not matter if it was a hardwood like Koa. Twice the Hoku'lea and Makali'i suffered masts and rudder damage, and quite a few plankings were busted and lost at sea on some voyages. They were made out of Koa.

I can agree that it's more than likely the balsa raft could make it to an island in calm weather ,but that in storms no way. That's why Nephi also didn't use a raft.

Also as far as your catamaran I could see it possible, but really would that be considered a raft?

I'm not locked into the idea of a raft. It would have to be multi-decked to fit the scriptures you quoted. The picture that I linked to was too small for me to really get an idea of its construction, but it does not appear to have multiple decks. I was suggesting the catamaran design in lieu of the raft design. Sycamore would lend itself to this type of design well. It is one of the maple henus of hardwoods, yet has excellent bening and shaping characteristics.

Just a thought.

Glenn

[Zakuska]

Bruddah that is just freaking awesome. I can't believe I didn't see that on the website. How did you locate it on the website por favor?

Found it on Potters website?

I remebered the News letter when it first came out so I googled:

"george potter bras plates"

Its the first two items that come up.

[handys003]

Found it on Potters website?

I remebered the News letter when it first came out so I googled:

"george potter bras plates"

Its the first two items that come up.

Sorry should have infered nephi project website. Anyhow didn't think to google, but I'll bing.

[handys003]

I'm not locked into the idea of a raft. It would have to be multi-decked to fit the scriptures you quoted. The picture that I linked to was too small for me to really get an idea of its construction, but it does not appear to have multiple decks. I was suggesting the catamaran design in lieu of the raft design. Sycamore would lend itself to this type of design well. It is one of the maple henus of hardwoods, yet has excellent bening and shaping characteristics.

Just a thought.

Glenn

Here's an article I just came across from Nephi Project. It takes in account of barges.

http://nephiproject....e%20Journey.htm

[Zakuska]

Oh MAN! I was soo Unaware of how much metal has been found at Khor Rori.

Metallurgy at Sumhuram (Khor Rori)

Crucible used for copper or bronze

Introduction

A significant amount of bronze and iron artefacts were found during the archaeological excavations at Sumhuram. Together with some splendid bronze ornamental and ritual items (basins and incense burners), which were probably imported, many everyday iron and bronze tools were found, which points to local metal working and production.

The most interesting evidence is the substantial amount (about 50 kilos) of metallurgical slag, and the many small ceramic crucibles discovered in different areas of the town.

Objectives

The project, conducted jointly with the Department of Geology of the University of Florence expects to provide a general view of metal production at the site and, in particular:

- to identify what kind of metal working was developed at Sumhuram;

- to ascertain if iron/copper smelting took place at the site or

- if the inhabitants imported the raw metals from elsewhere to produce metallic objects locally.

Activities being conducted and results

- Furnaces

So far, little evidence of furnaces has come to light.

The remains of only one smithing earth, located in area B, Building BB1, on the ground floor of room A73 has been discovered. It consists of a small fireplace dug into the floor to house an elongated furnace (0.75 m long, 0.44 m wide and 0.26 m deep) built in blocks of stone. The furnace was completely filled with light grey ash. Some slag was still attached to the furnace walls and abundant hammer scales were scattered around the furnace.

- Slag and crucibles

At this preliminary stage of the research, a selected number of slag, and ceramic crucibles were sampled and analysed. Most of the slag is plano-convex from small iron smithing.

Although further analyses could help to better identify the specific metallurgical process which this slag comes from, preliminary analyses suggest that the samples are waste products from smithing and refining/working spongy iron for the production of articles in iron.

There are only few samples with Cu carbonates, and the traces of copper droplets may indicate the occasional working of polymetallic iron and copper objects.

The most significant evidence of copper/bronze working activities are the numerous crucibles used for copper/bronze (copper-tin-lead alloys) refining and/or casting. All the crucibles are hemispherical in shape and very small. They could probably contain from 4 to 10 cm3 of molten metal for the production of small bronze articles.

- Coins

A huge quantity of coins, more than 1200, have been discovered in the site which suggests that there was a local mint (Sumhuram is the second site of southern Arabia, after Qana in Yemen, for the number of coins). We are also did a preliminary investigation on some coins that may have been minted at Sumhuram.

The analyses are only at a preliminary stage but they seem to suggest that many different alloy compositions were used in the production of coins, from the ancient to the more recent. Moreover all coins have a detectable presence of Ni and Co deriving from a common type of mineral ore. It is possible that some crucibles, which also have evidence of Co and Ni enrichment in the metal phases, were used merely for minting.

http://arabiantica.h...dex.php?id=1085

[Markk]

Hi,

How come when a "critic" questions LGT and how "North isn't really North" , and the compass points (directions) were different in the BoM, yet in this instance compass directions are as we know them today?

Mark

[Zakuska]

Hi,

How come when a "critic" questions LGT and how "North isn't really North" , and the compass points (directions) were different in the BoM, yet in this instance compass directions are as we know them today?

Mark

Because this is in the eastern hemisphere. We arn't to america yet.

[Markk]

Because this is in the eastern hemisphere. We arn't to america yet.

How come it is translated the same, if north, south, east and west isn't the same in the old world and the new world, how did it get translated the same from reformed Egyption. Who made the mistake, JS or God?

Mark

[Zakuska]

How come it is translated the same, if north, south, east and west isn't the same in the old world and the new world, how did it get translated the same from reformed Egyption. Who made the mistake, JS or God?

Mark

Whos to say it wasn't Mormon or Moroni?

[Markk]

Whos to say it wasn't Mormon or Moroni?

I guess it could have been, or heck, maybe it was Spaulding...

[Scottie]

This is a great point, Markk.

[Markk]

This is a great point, Markk.

It is the same with "what would a sword look like". When there is something that compliments the BoM it is factual as written, when it contradicts then all of a sudden the semantics change. The pundits say that there are "Hebrew-isms" in the BoM, then you bring up that there is no evidence for Temple built like Solomon's, they say something like "they wouldn't have known that because there were so far removed from that culture."

To me it boils down to "the survival of the church", no matter what the facts are,or who says what...whether it be a standard work or teaching, a dead prophet,or even the living prophet, the "survival of the church" will trump all.

Mark

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

This is a great point, Markk.

Lol.. Yeah it sure convinced me.

[Markk]

Hi Mola,

Why do you suppose that the BoM compass points "translate" differently to LDS "scholarship" from verse to verse, chapter to chapter, or book to book?

Mark

[David Bokovoy]

Hey Mark,

The pundits say that there are "Hebrew-isms" in the BoM, then you bring up that there is no evidence for Temple built like Solomon's, they say something like "they wouldn't have known that because there were so far removed from that culture."all.

Could you explain what this point means? Are you talking Old World, New World, or both?

best,

--DB

[Markk]

Hey Mark,

Could you explain what this point means? Are you talking Old World, New World, or both?

best,

--DB

Hi David,

Come on David I think you get my point, if God translated the BoM then the translation should and would be consistent. I'm "talking" BoM, it wouldn't matter one iota if it was old world or new world. If your going to say the compass points change without one shred of internal or external evidence, then how can a person trust one thing that the new world BoM has to offer. I could use the same argument with the same evidence (or lack of) about any topic, person, or place in the BoM. This cross interpretation of semantics to induce scholarly proof of the BoM is really nothing more than smoke and mirrors.

Anyway lay out your, for lack of a better word...proof... why the old world compass points are to be interpreted differently from the new world compass points within the BoM. If the compass points in LGT mean different directions, how do you know narrow neck of land means...well...narrow neck of land, I contend it means large cow pasture...same logic or lack of.

Always a pleasure, hows the surf back East?

Mark

[Zakuska]

Hi David,

Come on David I think you get my point, if God translated the BoM then the translation should and would be consistent. I'm "talking" BoM, it wouldn't matter one iota if it was old world or new world. If your going to say the compass points change without one shred of internal or external evidence, then how can a person trust one thing that the new world BoM has to offer. I could use the same argument with the same evidence (or lack of) about any topic, person, or place in the BoM. This cross interpretation of semantics to induce scholarly proof of the BoM is really nothing more than smoke and mirrors.

Anyway lay out your, for lack of a better word...proof... why the old world compass points are to be interpreted differently from the new world compass points within the BoM. If the compass points in LGT mean different directions, how do you know narrow neck of land means...well...narrow neck of land, I contend it means large cow pasture...same logic or lack of.

Always a pleasure, hows the surf back East?

Mark

And here I thought as a Missionary that we taught that Joseph Smith translated it with the gift and power of God. Silly me.

[thesometimesaint]

Markk:

The BoM is consistent. Through not consistent with your priori narrow interpretation.

[David Bokovoy]

Hi David,

Come on David I think you get my point, if God translated the BoM then the translation should and would be consistent. I'm "talking" BoM, it wouldn't matter one iota if it was old world or new world. If your going to say the compass points change without one shred of internal or external evidence, then how can a person trust one thing that the new world BoM has to offer. I could use the same argument with the same evidence (or lack of) about any topic, person, or place in the BoM. This cross interpretation of semantics to induce scholarly proof of the BoM is really nothing more than smoke and mirrors.

Anyway lay out your, for lack of a better word...proof... why the old world compass points are to be interpreted differently from the new world compass points within the BoM. If the compass points in LGT mean different directions, how do you know narrow neck of land means...well...narrow neck of land, I contend it means large cow pasture...same logic or lack of.

Always a pleasure, hows the surf back East?

Mark

Hello Mark,

I'm sorry, I'm not really interested in directions. However, your point that apologists "say that there are "Hebrew-isms" in the BoM, then you bring up that there is no evidence for Temple built like Solomon's, they say something like 'they wouldn't have known that because there were so far removed from that culture," that intrigues me.

Are you suggesting that the Book of Mormon's reference to building a temple like Solomon's outside Jerusalem is not an authentic Hebraism, since there is allegedly no evidence for Jews building anything of the sort?

Is that what you meant.

Thanks.

And the surfs been great out here, as it always is in the Fall, but alas, I've been too busy to take full advantage of it.

best

[handys003]

Hello Mark,

I'm sorry, I'm not really interested in directions. However, your point that apologists "say that there are "Hebrew-isms" in the BoM, then you bring up that there is no evidence for Temple built like Solomon's, they say something like 'they wouldn't have known that because there were so far removed from that culture," that intrigues me.

Are you suggesting that the Book of Mormon's reference to building a temple like Solomon's outside Jerusalem is not an authentic Hebraism, since there is allegedly no evidence for Jews building anything of the sort?

Is that what you meant.

Thanks.

And the surfs been great out here, as it always is in the Fall, but alas, I've been too busy to take full advantage of it.

best

Surf's up where!?

[volgadon]

I'll take Potter's claims more seriously the day he WALKS the trails.