Celestial Kingdom

[mercyngrace]

ummhhumm.

added:

So has your point been here that one can't possibly know if Joseph Smith was a true prophet? Because I beg to differ.

I know a lot of things that I can't prove and for which no physical evidence exists.

If you came into my kitchen, searched the cabinets and the fridge, roooted through the garbage and conducted a complete analysis of everything therein, you couldn't possibly tell me what I had for breakfast yesterday. You may be able to come up with a reasonable list of possibilities and create a scenario to support any of those conclusions.

The egg shells in the garbage? Nope - that was for a tuna fish sandwich at lunch.

The cereal bowl in the sink? Nope - my daughter ate a bowl before bed because she was "starving" and couldn't sleep.

The open grits container? Nope - used uncooked grits to create texture in a school art project and didn't put them away.

We actually went out for Dunkin' Donuts yesterday and ate at the shop bringing no evidence home with us other than in our stomachs and that has also long since moved on ;-) oh... and I paid cash and didn't get a receipt.

At best, you could perhaps come up with a few witnesses. Hey now, witnesses would be useful!

So... all this looking backward is fun but not necessarily meaningful.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

its about what REALLY happened was JS REALLY who he said he was.

We can know who he is by specualting on the possibilites to his life.

That is how we can know what really happened?

[Redefined]

Again, there's the potential for bias here - "align with that one believes already..." for example, implies a bias in the research.

I think everyone will always try a new thought out (unless he/she is close-minded) to one's own beliefs. The question is what one does when it doesn't fit.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

You are mistaken, I never claimed possibility=truth, possibility does not equal reality.

You certainly implied it. That what started this whole thing. You nad Thews claim that it was possible so it must have happened that way.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Is it your opinion Redefined, that JS plagarized that book on the Arabian peninsula?

That JS read the book and took concpets from it to write the BoM?

[Redefined]

So has your point been here that one can't possibly know if Joseph Smith was a true prophet? Because I beg to differ.

I know a lot of things that I can't prove and for which no physical evidence exists.

If you came into my kitchen, searched the cabinets and the fridge, roooted through the garbage and conducted a complete analysis of everything therein, you couldn't possibly tell me what I had for breakfast yesterday. You may be able to come up with a reasonable list of possibilities and create a scenario to support any of those conclusions.

The egg shells in the garbage? Nope - that was for a tuna fish sandwich at lunch.

The cereal bowl in the sink? Nope - my daughter ate a bowl before bed because she was "starving" and couldn't sleep.

The open grits container? Nope - used uncooked grits to create texture in a school art project and didn't put them away.

We actually went out for Dunkin' Donuts yesterday and ate at the shop bringing no evidence home with us other than in our stomachs and that has also long since moved on ;-) oh... and I paid cash and didn't get a receipt.

At best, you could perhaps come up with a few witnesses. Hey now, witnesses would be useful!

So... all this looking backward is fun but not necessarily meaningful.

Only himself and. . . er. ... God

Added. . . it's what you choose to believe from the conclusions you have drawn based on what evidence you decide to take into consideration.

[Redefined]

You certainly implied it. That what started this whole thing. You nad Thews claim that it was possible so it must have happened that way.

No, show me where I said that.

Added. . . my "possiblity" discussion came of the heels of myself pointing out that everyone is so quick to say that he didn't have access to the book. . . how do you know!?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

So has your point been here that one can't possibly know if Joseph Smith was a true prophet? Because I beg to differ.

I know a lot of things that I can't prove and for which no physical evidence exists.

If you came into my kitchen, searched the cabinets and the fridge, roooted through the garbage and conducted a complete analysis of everything therein, you couldn't possibly tell me what I had for breakfast yesterday. You may be able to come up with a reasonable list of possibilities and create a scenario to support any of those conclusions.

The egg shells in the garbage? Nope - that was for a tuna fish sandwich at lunch.

The cereal bowl in the sink? Nope - my daughter ate a bowl before bed because she was "starving" and couldn't sleep.

The open grits container? Nope - used uncooked grits to create texture in a school art project and didn't put them away.

We actually went out for Dunkin' Donuts yesterday and ate at the shop bringing no evidence home with us other than in our stomachs and that has also long since moved on ;-) oh... and I paid cash and didn't get a receipt.

At best, you could perhaps come up with a few witnesses. Hey now, witnesses would be useful!

So... all this looking backward is fun but not necessarily meaningful.

This is a great story.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

No, show me where I said that.

Ill show you were you said when you show me that I claimed that you said it. I said you implied it.

Good grief this is really simple here.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Only himself and. . . er. ... God

Added. . . it's what you choose to believe from the conclusions you have drawn based on what evidence you decide to take into consideration.

Nice tap dance but I dont think you understand the story, ironically.

[Redefined]

Ill show you were you said when you show me that I claimed that you said it. I said you implied it.

Good grief this is really simple here.

I would like to know how you draw that assumption? Because I'm arguing the case for the possibility that no one wants to consider?

[notHagoth7]

I think the mistake is claiming that Joseph Smith couldn't possibly had read the book. . . because he well could have.

I think one key mistake is assuming that God couldn't reveal things to both Emmanuel and Joseph.

For example, I find a great deal of similarity and overlap in the imagery that many of the Bible prophets used.

That leaves me a few choices:

1) I can choose to believe they were simply copying from and riffing on each other, snickering all the while.

2) Or I can believe that God's guidance leaves consistent fingerprints - that overlap from message to message, from messenger to messenger.

3) Or, I can humbly pray about it, and rather than merely believe, I can learn for myself.

I prefer door #3.

But I'll use door #2 as a gateway, when needed.

[Redefined]

I think one key mistake is assuming that God couldn't reveal things to both Emmanuel and Joseph.

For example, I find a great deal of similarity and overlap in the imagery that many of the Bible prophets used.

That leaves me a few choices:

1) I can choose to believe they were simply copying from and riffing on each other, snickering all the while.

2) Or I can believe that God's guidance leaves consistent fingerprints - that overlap from message to message, from messenger to messenger.

3) Or, I can humbly pray about it, and rather than merely believe, I can learn for myself.

I prefer door #3.

But I'll use door #2 as a gateway, when needed.

If that is how you decide what your beliefs are. Personally, it's the same to me as someone saying, I asked the magic 8 ball.

[ttribe]

Redefined - I'm still wondering: Link

[robuchan]

I think one key mistake is assuming that God couldn't reveal things to both Emmanuel and Joseph.

For example, I find a great deal of similarity and overlap in the imagery that many of the Bible prophets used.

That leaves me a few choices:

1) I can choose to believe they were simply copying from and riffing on each other, snickering all the while.

2) Or I can believe that God's guidance leaves consistent fingerprints - that overlap from message to message, from messenger to messenger.

3) Or, I can humbly pray about it, and rather than merely believe, I can learn for myself.

I prefer door #3.

But I'll use door #2 as a gateway, when needed.

How odd is it that not a single Bible or BOM prophet got the same revelation, though? OK you'll argue 1 Cor, and I'll give it to you. So 1/100 Bible/BOM prophets.

[ttribe]

How odd is it that not a single Bible or BOM prophet got the same revelation, though? OK you'll argue 1 Cor, and I'll give it to you. So 1/100 Bible/BOM prophets.

Or that we have a record of it since we happen to believe both books are incomplete.

[Redefined]

Redefined - I'm still wondering: Link

Sorry, to let that slip past, it's hard to keep up sometimes. I don't think I claimed my beliefs as superior and yours as inferior. I don't view beliefs that way. It's like comparing apples and oranges. I am compelled to come to an understanding. . . common ground I guess. . . which at times seems impossible.

[ttribe]

Sorry, to let that slip past, it's hard to keep up sometimes. I don't think I claimed my beliefs as superior and yours as inferior. I don't view beliefs that way. It's like comparing apples and oranges. I am compelled to come to an understanding. . . common ground I guess. . . which at times seems impossible.

So, if your reality = truth, and if "truth" is universal, and we disagree on "reality", how can your version not be superior in your eyes?

[robuchan]

Or that we have a record of it since we happen to believe both books are incomplete.

So was there any logic to the BOM prophets leaving this doctrine out? Or was it just random?

[notHagoth7]

If that is how you decide what your beliefs are. Personally, it's the same to me as someone saying, I asked the magic 8 ball.

While your opinion is interesting (although sadly pessimistic), life will flow just fine without your approval.

People like you who claim to be so logical ignore Occam's Razor all the time. And trample on it in your haste to disprove something.

The most obvious and simple solution. Elegant even.

A common source.

So go on pulling up parallels from the thousands of modern books you think the Book of Mormon was based on.

You are wasting your precious time.

[ttribe]

So was there any logic to the BOM prophets leaving this doctrine out? Or was it just random?

Who says they left it out? I thought it was clear we don't have the entire BoM.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I would like to know how you draw that assumption? Because I'm arguing the case for the possibility that no one wants to consider?

I drew that assumption solely because it was a possibility. J/K

The reasons I drew that conclusion is becuase I was asking for specific peices of evidence that would lead one to infer that JS did infact have a copy of that book, that the book contained information that is used in the BoM to draw a strong convergance.

When I asked that you came back to me and said " You make it sound like it was impossible for JS to have used the book".

It is pretty easy to see were you are going with it. And then you accused me of being ignorant becuase the "fact" is that it was possible for JS to have used the book.

Perhaps Thews said the latter. Either way between the 2 of you (Yes I moved the goal post a little here) you implied that possiblity was the cause.

I had asked at least 2 times for evidence for this supposed "possibility". This is now the 3rd time.

[mercyngrace]

Only himself and. . . er. ... God

Added. . . it's what you choose to believe from the conclusions you have drawn based on what evidence you decide to take into consideration.

Unless, of course, a witness who you found to be utterly reliable testified before you that Joseph Smith was a prophet.

Then the bias is limited to your determination of the witness's credibility.

I will certainly admit that there are very good reasons to doubt the credibility of spiritual witnesses which is why God makes a multitude of merciful allowances for His children.

If you have not received a witness then you base your life on one of the conclusions you've drawn given the evidence you do have (eggs, grits, and cereal bowls). But don't even think about telling me that I didn't have a double chocolate donut while the sweet taste still lingers on my lips.

[Redefined]

So, if your reality = truth, and if "truth" is universal, and we disagree on "reality", how can your version not be superior in your eyes?

Because I know I don't know all there is to know. Who possibly can.

I'm still learning and growing.

[mercyngrace]

So was there any logic to the BOM prophets leaving this doctrine out? Or was it just random?

We know that Christ reprimanded the Nephites for failing to record teachings and events He felt were substantial and significant. He acknowledges their fallibility as record keepers. Can you?