Iron weapons found in Cost Rica

[Sevenbak]

I came across this site that has some samples of iron tools found in Mesoamerica. Apparently they are at the Peabody Museum at Yale. Has anyone seen this collection, or know anything more about them?

Pre-Columbian Iron Blade

Peabody Museum 83-72-32770

Pre-Columbian Iron Blade

Peabody Museum 83-72-20/32771

Pre-Columbian Iron needles

Peabody Museum 03-24-20/C3628

From the site: According to their ledger entries, they were found in 1883 along with other ancient artifacts in a stone-covered burial mound near the shores of the Tempique River in Pelona, Costa Rica.

http://www.bmaf.org/node/164

[jadams_4242]

I came across this site that has some samples of iron tools found in Mesoamerica. Apparently they are at the Peabody Museum at Yale. Has anyone seen this collection, or know anything more about them?

Pre-Columbian Iron Blade

Peabody Museum 83-72-32770

Pre-Columbian Iron Blade

Peabody Museum 83-72-20/32771

Pre-Columbian Iron needles

Peabody Museum 03-24-20/C3628

From the site: According to their ledger entries, they were found in 1883 along with other ancient artifacts in a stone-covered burial mound near the shores of the Tempique River in Pelona, Costa Rica.

http://www.bmaf.org/node/164

Always intresting stuff to file! thank you. i either had not heard of this or forgot that i did????

[Sevenbak]

Always intresting stuff to file! thank you. i either had not heard of this or forgot that i did????

Yeah, I'll have to add these to my other "iron tools and ornaments" file. There's a few others, but that knife is pretty cool.

[handys003]

Hmm.... from a 1996 satement from the Smithsonian;

5. Iron, steel, glass, and silk were not used in the New World before 1492 (except for the occasional use of unsmelted meteoric iron). Native copper was worked in various locations in pre-Columbian times, but true metallurgy was limited to southern Mexico and the Andean region, where its occurrence in late prehistoric times involved gold, silver, copper, and their alloys, but not iron.

http://ironageamerica.com/

another myth bites the dust.

[Sevenbak]

Hmm.... from a 1996 satement from the Smithsonian;

5. Iron, steel, glass, and silk were not used in the New World before 1492 (except for the occasional use of unsmelted meteoric iron). Native copper was worked in various locations in pre-Columbian times, but true metallurgy was limited to southern Mexico and the Andean region, where its occurrence in late prehistoric times involved gold, silver, copper, and their alloys, but not iron.

another myth bites the dust.

For sure.

There's a fun site about metallurgy furnaces discovered here in North America among Hopewell and other cultures, both of copper and iron. Here's a few pics and the link.

http://www.iwaynet.net/~wdc/piofurn.htm

Ohio Smelter

Arizona Hohokam indian trash pile iron suspended from a magnet.

Here's some more from the link.

Iron Artifacts From Ohio's Pit Furnaces

http://www.iwaynet.net/~wdc/images.htm

[Sevenbak]

OK, that's funny. We sent the same link. I guess the mysterious furnaces are not so mysterious.

[Obiwan]

Didn't you know, that according to the anti-mormons Iron tools and weapons DON'T exist in Meso-America??? So just another "nail" that the Book of Mormon is false.

[Sevenbak]

Didn't you know, that according to the anti-mormons Iron tools and weapons DON'T exist in Meso-America??? So just another "nail" that the Book of Mormon is false.

Well, unless someone finds actual iron nails, they'll continue to pound that issue home...

[handys003]

OK, that's funny. We sent the same link. I guess the mysterious furnaces are not so mysterious.

They're mysterious to the Smithsonian eventhough they've (tools) been in the Peabody exhibit for quite awhile, but hey! What do we know were just a bunch of bible thumping illiterates.

[juliann]

Didn't you know, that according to the anti-mormons Iron tools and weapons DON'T exist in Meso-America??? So just another "nail" that the Book of Mormon is false.

What matters is the dating and smelting. I don't think anyone is denying there was iron.

[handys003]

You know I was thinking about horses in America the other day. Current thinking is Spaniards brought them over. However did anyone remember an article detailing how archaeologists had been tossing out the bones of horses from older dig sites. I can't remember which magazine or site I saw it, but I don't think I was dreaming the article up.

Anyhow It occured to me most Native Americans in the West don't describe their life without the horse. However it is alluded that they used dogs to carry packs. Now considering this notion your average tipi needed 12 poles and the buffalo skins needed would be close to the 20 plus range if not more. The poles also would be about 10 to 12 feet in length. Considering the logistics of weight; of the skins' and poles; plus only 1 pole per dog, plus all the clothing, tools, food and misc. materials the individual family of 4 must carry. The pack animal of dogs must've been enormous to one family in alone the entire tribe itself when migrating. I don't see logistically in lieu of the needed meat to feed these animals is logical in perception for such an endeavor.

If were talking numbers here we are looking at posibbly 30 dogs per family and in a tribe of 100 familes 3000 total in daily care and feeding. Which contrary to Native American life the avg. family struggled to maintain food supply for themselves let alone 30 dogs to feed. I wonder if this view of dogs as pack animals is faulty based on the logistics alone.

[handys003]

What matters is the dating and smelting. I don't think anyone is denying there was iron.

There are tons of university antrhopologists who deny iron ever existed in Meso-America. If you go to the Smithsonian now with such proof they'd laugh you out the door. Heck they still deny that Polynesians came from S. America.

[Wants2know]

I don't know anything about the weapons. But the Peabody is my favorite museum ever. My recollection is they have a large Native American "collection".

[John Larsen]

There are tons of university antrhopologists who deny iron ever existed in Meso-America. If you go to the Smithsonian now with such proof they'd laugh you out the door. Heck they still deny that Polynesians came from S. America.

Tons? Baloney. Name 2.

[TAK]

Is there a dating to these tools?

[Sevenbak]

Is there a dating to these tools?

That's the million dollar question.

[Scottie]

I always thought it was steel that was the problem, not iron.

IIRC, they have found polished mirrors made of iron that dates to pre-columbian times as well.

[Sevenbak]

I always thought it was steel that was the problem, not iron.

IIRC, they have found polished mirrors made of iron that dates to pre-columbian times as well.

I'm not sure that's much of an issue. The Jaredites were smelting steel swords, (Ether 7:9) and yet they were found by the Nephites decayed and "cankered with rust".

The definition of steel is used pretty loosely, IMO, and not the same as we have today. I think it just means hardened iron, not stainless and rustproof.

[John Larsen]

I'm not sure that's much of an issue. The Jaredites were smelting steel swords, (Ether 7:9) and yet they were found by the Nephites decayed and "cankered with rust".

The definition of steel is used pretty loosely, IMO, and not the same as we have today. I think it just means hardened iron, not stainless and rustproof.

I don't understand the point you are making. It is not just iron that can rust. Steel rusts very easily. That passage does nothing to suggest that they really meant iron when they said steel.

[John Larsen]

I always thought it was steel that was the problem, not iron.

IIRC, they have found polished mirrors made of iron that dates to pre-columbian times as well.

That is my understanding also. The use of iron was very common especially in the North East where Joseph was raised. The US is covered in evidence of pre-Columbian Indian copper and iron mining.

[Sevenbak]

I don't understand the point you are making. It is not just iron that can rust. Steel rusts very easily. That passage does nothing to suggest that they really meant iron when they said steel.

The point is hardened iron, the kind that can hold an edge on a weapon well, as opposed to softer wrought iron.

Different kinds of iron tools and weapons have been found throughout the ancient world with differing levels of steeling or hardening.

[shrff]

For sure.

There's a fun site about metallurgy furnaces discovered here in North America among Hopewell and other cultures, both of copper and iron. Here's a few pics and the link.

http://www.iwaynet.net/~wdc/piofurn.htm

Ohio Smelter

Arizona Hohokam indian trash pile iron suspended from a magnet.

Here's some more from the link.

Iron Artifacts From Ohio's Pit Furnaces

http://www.iwaynet.net/~wdc/images.htm

Sigh.

Once again, there is ample archaeological evidence for the working of native Copper in North American contexts. There is no credible evidence for copper or iron smelting in North America. Interested persons are referred to this book, written by a professional archaeo-metallurgist, a copy of which is sitting on my desk.

I am more interested in the pile iron that was supposedly recovered in association with a Hohokam trash deposit. As a professional archaeologist, I have worked at literally hundreds of Hohokam archaeological sites over the last 5 years. I am extremely familiar with the academic literature on this place and time period. My dissertation is on the organization of Hohokam production and exchange. There is absolutely no evidence for iron working in the Hohokam. About a year ago, we did find some small fragments of slag associated with a buried Hohokam individual. We are not able to thin-section the slag to study it in more detail due to a burial agreement with the local Native American groups. A colleague, also an archaeo-metallurgist who has worked most extensively in the Old World, examined the slag fragments and is fairly certain they are copper derived. Because the individual was cremated, it is possible that the slag fragments are copper bells that melted in the cremation fire. It is also possible that the Hohokam were smelting copper and manufacturing copper bells, a similar technology existed in contemporary Mexico. We even found a thick-walled ceramic vessel with metallic residue on the interior that may have functioned as a crucible, although, the Hohokam also seem to have melted galena, lead, and other liquid metals as part of household rituals. We are working on a paper to this end, these copper bells could easily have been cast in sand and left very little evidence archaeologically.

Archaeoloigcal data is context. In order to be credible, the context must be established by a professional using a universally accepted methodology.

[John Larsen]

The point is hardened iron, the kind that can hold an edge on a weapon well, as opposed to softer wrought iron.

Different kinds of iron tools and weapons have been found throughout the ancient world with differing levels of steeling or hardening.

So? This doesn't help your case.

There is no evidence of steel weaponry in the time period of the Book of Mormon in the New world. At all.

[Sevenbak]

Sigh.

Once again, there is ample archaeological evidence for the working of native Copper in North American contexts. There is no credible evidence for copper or iron smelting in North America. Interested persons are referred to this book, written by a professional archaeo-metallurgist, a copy of which is sitting on my desk.

I am more interested in the pile iron that was supposedly recovered in association with a Hohokam trash deposit. As a professional archaeologist, I have worked at literally hundreds of Hohokam archaeological sites over the last 5 years. I am extremely familiar with the academic literature on this place and time period. My dissertation is on the organization of Hohokam production and exchange. There is absolutely no evidence for iron working in the Hohokam. About a year ago, we did find some small fragments of slag associated with a buried Hohokam individual. We are not able to thin-section the slag to study it in more detail due to a burial agreement with the local Native American groups. A colleague, also an archaeo-metallurgist who has worked most extensively in the Old World, examined the slag fragments and is fairly certain they are copper derived. Because the individual was cremated, it is possible that the slag fragments are copper bells that melted in the cremation fire. It is also possible that the Hohokam were smelting copper and manufacturing copper bells, a similar technology existed in contemporary Mexico. We even found a thick-walled ceramic vessel with metallic residue on the interior that may have functioned as a crucible, although, the Hohokam also seem to have melted galena, lead, and other liquid metals as part of household rituals. We are working on a paper to this end, these copper bells could easily have been cast in sand and left very little evidence archaeologically.

Archaeoloigcal data is context. In order to be credible, the context must be established by a professional using a universally accepted methodology.

Sigh right back at ya.

I find it much more credible to take the text at it's word and know that finds like these support it. Not the other way around.

[Sevenbak]

So? This doesn't help your case.

There is no evidence of steel weaponry in the time period of the Book of Mormon in the New world. At all.

Some say potato some say potatoe.

Some say steel, some say steeling.

None of which means you can associate ancient versions with the indestructible stainless knives and spoons in my modern utensil drawer.