Iron weapons found in Cost Rica

[Larrin]

Stargazer, there is a difference between an apologetic explanation for the Book of Mormon "steel" and actually finding steel in ancient Mesoamerica. While your explanation might be valid, discovering iron/steel tools in Book of Mormon period America is a different thing altogether. It's difficult because there is a fair amount of crossover on this forum.

[All-Seeing Eye]

I note that the site from which these photos are taken is a site that seems designed to promote the Book of Mormon rather than a site that is designed to investigate metallurgy in the Americas generally. I notice the statements from the site that the artifacts are "pre-Columbian," but I see no real support for that assertion anywhere on the page. I think it is possible that the page's author simply added, beneath the photos, his opinion of the age from which the artifacts came. I suggest to the original poster that he be very cautious in making his claims, because the source's allegation that the artifacts are, in fact, "pre-Columbian" may be erroneous.

[All-Seeing Eye]

Deleted because by the time I finished writing, my question had been answered.

[Larrin]

WHOA!

You're the first and only person I've heard suggest that Nephi's steel bow wasn't actually made of steel.

I bet if I went into any Book of Mormon Gospel Doctrine class and asked the instructor of what material Nephi's bow was made, the instructor would say "steel," not "wood."

I bet if I asked any of the General Authorities the same question, they would give me the same answer.

How can you be so sure of yourself? What if Nephi's steel bow was very thin, making it both flexible and breakable?

Brant Gardner talks about this in his excellent commentary on the Book of Mormon. He also cites William J. Hamblin, "The Bow and Arrow in the Book of Mormon" in Warfare in the Book of Mormon.

[All-Seeing Eye]

Brant Gardner talks about this in his excellent commentary on the Book of Mormon. He also cites William J. Hamblin, "The Bow and Arrow in the Book of Mormon" in Warfare in the Book of Mormon.

OK, so that makes three.

So, when Jarom 1:8 refers to iron, copper, brass, and steel in the same sentence, it's referring to iron, copper, brass, and some other unknown hardened substance?

Is it really referring to brass?

What about the iron and copper--do those really mean something else too?

[etana]

I'll take it one step further too. Why isn't science looking more closely at these costa Rica knives? Are they afraid it may upset the cart? Has there been dating done on them?

What about the iron artifacts that Mallory and others discovered? Why don't they analyze them, instead of shrugging them off off as "amateurs"?

I suggest they start with these:

Arlington H. Mallery displays the 62-pound bar of cast iron he discovered in the Arledge Mound when excavating remains of a pit iron furnace near Chillicothe, Ohio in 1948. The amateur archaeologist was surprised to find the cast iron bar stuck in an air duct of one of two furnace pits found in the mound, since he only expected to find wrought iron associated with a bloomery smelter. Photo by William Conner.

Clyde Keeler holds a 42.5 pound cast iron bar he uncovered August 7, 1971 at a Ross County, Ohio site which he named "Haskins Furnace Mound No. 2." The bar was cast in a mold in which an inscription had been formed. The symbols of the inscription were partly rusted away, requiring interpretation by the observer as to what some of them might signify. Keeler thought the letters spelled "CONALY" while fellow investigator Bennett E. Kelley thought the letters might read "OGNIY." This photo and the other on this page showing Dr. Keeler were furnished to the author by Kelley. The close-up photo of the inscribed bar was taken by Dr. Duane Aston, professor of chemistry, University of California at Sacramento, CA in June, 1991 during his visit the Fayette County Historical Society Museum, Washington, C.H., Ohio. The bar was originally placed on display in 1971 by Kelley, who was curator of the museum.

The Haskins No. 2 Cast Iron Bar, 1991

http://www.iwaynet.net/~wdc/images.htm

considering that it is cast with roman lettering, I'd suggest that it's likely post Spanish conquest.

As far as what steel (always) means; it is simply iron with carbon content. This is usually (in the ancient world) created by smelting iron sand. Just heating and quenching iron will not harden it; it must have a significant carbon content (be steel) to harden. Modern stainless and spring steel have other ingredients e.g. chromium.

[Larrin]

considering that it is cast with roman lettering, I'd suggest that it's likely post Spanish conquest.

As far as what steel (always) means; it is simply iron with carbon content. This is usually (in the ancient world) created by smelting iron sand. Just heating and quenching iron will not harden it; it must have a significant carbon content (be steel) to harden. Modern stainless and spring steel have other ingredients e.g. chromium.

But most sources of iron have various impurities that can increase hardness like phosphorus.

[Larrin]

OK, so that makes three.

So, when Jarom 1:8 refers to iron, copper, brass, and steel in the same sentence, it's referring to iron, copper, brass, and some other unknown hardened substance?

Is it really referring to brass?

What about the iron and copper--do those really mean something else too?

It could be referring to something else, it could be iron, copper, brass, and bronze, for example. This gets into questions of translation process for Joseph Smith. I recommend reading D&C 9. Then there are of course lots of articles with speculation.

[talisyn]

You know I was thinking about horses in America the other day. Current thinking is Spaniards brought them over. However did anyone remember an article detailing how archaeologists had been tossing out the bones of horses from older dig sites. I can't remember which magazine or site I saw it, but I don't think I was dreaming the article up.

Anyhow It occured to me most Native Americans in the West don't describe their life without the horse. However it is alluded that they used dogs to carry packs. Now considering this notion your average tipi needed 12 poles and the buffalo skins needed would be close to the 20 plus range if not more. The poles also would be about 10 to 12 feet in length. Considering the logistics of weight; of the skins' and poles; plus only 1 pole per dog, plus all the clothing, tools, food and misc. materials the individual family of 4 must carry. The pack animal of dogs must've been enormous to one family in alone the entire tribe itself when migrating. I don't see logistically in lieu of the needed meat to feed these animals is logical in perception for such an endeavor.

If were talking numbers here we are looking at posibbly 30 dogs per family and in a tribe of 100 familes 3000 total in daily care and feeding. Which contrary to Native American life the avg. family struggled to maintain food supply for themselves let alone 30 dogs to feed. I wonder if this view of dogs as pack animals is faulty based on the logistics alone.

Obviously they were very big dogs.

[John Larsen]

OK, so that makes three.

So, when Jarom 1:8 refers to iron, copper, brass, and steel in the same sentence, it's referring to iron, copper, brass, and some other unknown hardened substance?

Is it really referring to brass?

What about the iron and copper--do those really mean something else too?

Maybe by "steel" they actually meant ziff.

[Sevenbak]

Iron needles!!? Whoa!!! I can't seem to remember which book, chapter, and verse in the Book of Mormon mentioned the Nephites or Lamanites sewing or knitting. Where is that again?

Edit: In answer to my own question, it is here:

Mosiah 18: 21

21 And he commanded them that there should be no contention one with another, but that they should look forward with one eye, having one faith and one baptism, having their hearts knit together in unity and in love one towards another.

Don't forget the "seams" in the rocks after the crucifixion.

But there are many references to cloth and working cloth in the Book of Mormon.

Actually, the needles surprised me the most, as they are thin and would have disintegrated faster, IMHO. I think any such thin iron needle that would have survived this long would have had to be "steeled" somehow. Of course, the fact that these articles were found encased inside a stone mound makes me think they haven't had normal moisture interaction. I wish there was more info about these and dating from the Peabody.

[Sevenbak]

The natives had furnaces to fire pottery. What proof do you have that these ran hot enough to smelt iron?

Well, they were hot enough to burn up Nephites and records that were thrown into at Ammonihah, assuming they were the metal furnaces, that's just a guess. The 3 Nephites were also thrown into furnaces of fire, 3 times.

Also, refining language is used in at least 2 instances in the Book of Mormon.

Alma 32: 3

3 Therefore they were not permitted to enter into their synagogues to worship God, being esteemed as filthiness; therefore they were poor; yea, they were esteemed by their brethren as dross; therefore they were poor as to things of the world; and also they were poor in heart.

Alma 34: 29

29 Therefore, if ye do not remember to be charitable, ye are as dross, which the refiners do cast out, (it being of no worth) and is trodden under foot of men.

Oh, and to answer your "native furnace" question, the furnaces that have been found by Mallory and others have had metal smelting artifacts associated with them. Here's a list from Mallory. I've only bolded the findings where slag or iron artifacts were found along with glazed stones at furnace sites. Also, notice the archeologists who have verified at least 2 of these sites as iron smelt sites.

Deer Creek Sites Database

Ackley: located on the Ackley farm on Ohio Route 104, north of Chillicothe, Ohio and opposite the Veteran's Administration Medical Center, Ross County. Reported, 1992, by Gerald Parker of the APGS. Findings: glazed stones and pottery. Artifacts: APGS collection maintained by David Orr.

Allyn: located on Allyn farm north of old U.S. Route 35 just east of Frankfort, Ohio in Ross County. Site: a mound. Reported and excavated by Arlington Mallery in 1950. Findings: six badly decomposed human skeletons, a furnace pit, glazed stones, baked clay, and iron slag. Site vandalized before investigation completed; no human remains were collected.

Arledge: located on Arledge farm along Pennyroyal Road west of Ohio Route 104, in Deer Creek valley south of Yellowbud, Ohio, Ross County. Site: a mound. Reported and excavated by Mallery, 1949-50. Findings: human bones, glazed stones, baked clay, bog ore, charcoal, iron artifacts, two furnace pits. Pit dimensions: No. 1, upper oval 7 feet, 10 inches x five feet; bowl depth 5 to 4 feet. No. 2, upper oval 7 feet x 4 feet 8 inches, bowl depth 4 to 5 feet . Re-excavated by Mallery and William Conner in 1963, and by Conner, Hugh McCulloch and David Orr in 1991.

Ceramic material collected by Conner in 1963 was matched with dosimeter chips buried in 1991 Arledge soil; the resulting thermoluminescence (TL) date of the mid-1700s (approximately 1740 ) matched an earlier radiocarbon dating obtained by Clyde Keeler for material from the nearby Deer Creek No. 2 furnace. However, for economic reasons alone, no dates prior to the settlement of Ohio beginning in the late 1790s make any sense!

Artifacts: the collections of Conner, APGS and the Fayette County Historical Society Museum, Washington C.H., Ohio. Site is highly disturbed by numerous excavations and other "off the record" intrusions.

Biers Run: located on this stream near Anderson Station, Ross County, Ohio, several miles west of Chillicothe. Site: creek bank. Reported by David Orr. Findings: glazed stones.

Caldwell: located just east of Ohio Route 104 in Pickaway County in a bank above the Scioto River, several miles north of Fox, Ohio. Reported by B.E. Kelley in 1971. Findings: glazed stones, baked clay and charcoal.

Chillicothe Hospital: located on hillside north of Adena Medical Center in northern Chillicothe, Ohio north of U.S. Route 23, Ross County. Reported by Orr. Findings: glazed stones.

Comfort Inn: located on the site of the present Comfort Inn motel on U.S. Route 23 in south Circleville, Ohio, Pickaway County. Reported by Amy Spangler of the APGS in 1993. Site destroyed by motel construction. Findings: glazed stones and slag. Artifacts: APGS and Spangler.

Congo Creek: located along this stream in southern Pickaway County. Reported by a Mr. Jones in 1975 (according to David Orr). Findings: glazed stones. Artifacts: APGS.

Deer Creek No. 1: located along this stream north of Pennyroyal Road west of State Route 104 and south of Yellowbud, Ohio. Reported by Mallery in 1949. Site: furnace bowl in bank of Deer Creek. Opened by stream erosion, site subsequently destroyed by further erosion. Findings: glazed stones, slag, baked clay, bog ore, wood, iron, brick, clay mortar, a furnace pit, ashes and lime. Artifacts: Fayette County Historical Society Museum.

Deer Creek No.2: located near Deer Creek No.1. Reported by Clyde Keeler and B.E. Kelley in 1971. Site: creek bank. Furnace bowl opened by erosion; site subsequently destroyed by further erosion. Findings: glazed stones, slag, baked clay, charcoal, iron artifacts, one furnace pit. Artifacts: Fayette Museum.

Garrett: located on Garrett farm along the North Fork of Paint Creek near Anderson Station, Ohio in Ross County. Site: second terrace bank of creek. Reported by Conner and Orr in 1993. Findings: glazed stones, slag. Debris spread and terrain suggest presence of at least two furnace pits and possibly more. Artifacts: APGS, Conner.

Glacial Kame: located in a farm field west of State Route 104 and south of Yellowbud, Ohio in Ross County. Reported by Orr; surface excavation by Conner and Orr in 1990 to bottom of tillage zone. Findings: human bones, glazed stones, slag, baked clay, bog ore, charcoal, red oval outline of furnace pit. Artifacts: APGS, Conner.

Gunflint: located near east bank of Scioto River on Boulger farm about one mile south of Kellenberger Road bridge, south of Yellowbud, Ohio in Ross County. Reported by archaeologist Scott Troy in 1979. Findings: glazed stone. Artifacts: deposited at Ohio State University Anthropology Department.

Hallsville: located near this village on south bank of Kinnikinnick Creek near junction with its south fork in Ross County, Ohio. Reported to Orr by a Mr. Ramsey in 1982. Findings: glazed stone

Haskins No. 1: located near Deer Creek No. 1 and No. 2 sites on Pennyroyal Road in Ross County, Ohio on acreage surrounding the Leroy Haskins home. Reported and excavated by Mallery in 1949. Excavation was refilled after investigation by Mallery. Site: mound. Findings: glazed stones, baked clay, bog ore, charcoal, iron artifacts and four furnace pits. Iron objects included three cast iron bars weighing (55, 33, and 32 pounds), and a axe and a shovel made of wrought iron with steel blade inserts. Artifacts: Fayette County Museum (iron bars, glazed stones) and Conner (glazed stones and other furnace debris).

Haskins No. 2: located nearby Haskins No.1. Reported by Clyde Keeler and Bennett E. Kelley in 1971; site also visited by Conner during excavation. Site: mound. Findings: Human bones, glazed stones, bog ore, a 42-pound cast iron bar, and one pit furnace. The cast iron bar was apparently cast in a sand mold with lettering; the letters on the bar were corroded, but Kelley interpreted them to read "OGNIY" while Keeler read "CONALY."

A radiocarbon dating of 1640 A.D. plus or minus 90 years was obtained for this site. (While this date seems too early for a Colonial period origin in this region, adjusting the plus or minus allowance upward by 10 years brings this date up to that of the Arledge mound furnaces.) A detailed report on the site by Keeler and Kelley was published in the Newsletter of the New England Antiquities Research Association (NEARA) Vol. 7, No. 1.; 1972. Artifacts: Fayette County Museum (iron bar with letters), Keeler estate, and Conner (glazed stones, furnace debris, photographs).

Hoover: located on east bank of Hoover Reservoir, south of Galena, Delaware County, Ohio; the reservoir is part of the City of Columbus water supply system and the site is believed to be on city property (according to park rangers). Reported by Conner in November, 1996. Site: low mound, bank of Big Walnut Creek, now a reservoir. Findings: glazed stones, glazed brick, cinders, ashes from debris field below apparent furnace site on high bank above.

A 15- by 9-foot bed of ashes and cinders forms the top of a low mound, rising about two feet above the top of the bank. This is apparently the top of the intact remains of a pit iron furnace. The debris spread is on the bed of the reservoir and is only accessible during the lowest of water levels during a draw-down or drought. Artifacts: Conner (also photos and maps).

Hopeton No. 1: located at site of prehistoric Hopeton Works several miles north of Chillicothe, Ohio in Ross County, west of U.S. Route 23, 100 meters from a historic log cabin site. Reported in 1995 by Troy. Findings: glazed stone.

Hopeton No. 2: located 1,000 meters from above site in a depression or pot hole. Reported by Troy in 1995. Findings: glazed stone.

Island Road: located on west bank of Scioto River south of Yellowbud, Ohio in Ross County. Reported by Parker, 1992. Findings: glazed stones.

Kilgore Bridge: located near this Scioto River bridge of Eastern Avenue, Chillicothe, Ross County, Ohio. Reported by Parker in 1993. Findings: glazed stones.

Lynn Acres: located on Bulldozer farm in southwest Pickaway County near Laurelville, Ohio. Site: hillside slope. Reported by Orr in 1992. Excavated by APGS Team led by Conner and Orr, 1992-93. Detailed reports in APG Journal, September, 1993, Vol. 2, No. 1, by Conner and Orr.

Findings: glazed stones, baked clay, slag, bog ore, charcoal, iron artifacts (including nails and shovels), one furnace pit with work area in front of air duct opening. Furnace bowl at surface is oval, 3 meters by 2.6 and is 2.7 meters deep down to top of air duct (9.8 x 8.5 x 8.8 feet). The duct is 0.4 meter square in cross section (l.3 feet). The furnace was identified as direct reduction iron smelter by Carroll Mobley, a Ohio State University professor of metallurgical engineering. Thermoluminescence dating pending. Excavations refilled for preservation. Artifacts: APGS, Conner, Bulldozer (photos, Orr and Conner).

McCalla: Reported by Parker. Ross County. Findings: glazed stones.

Mound City: located at Hopewell Culture National Parks, Mound City unit, on State Route 104, several miles north of Chillicothe, Ross County, Ohio. Reported by Bret Ruby, PhD., park archaeologist, in 1995. Findings: glazed stone found along Mound City's north border. Artifacts: Ruby.

Orr Farm: located on Orr Farm west of Kingston, Ohio in Ross County. Reported by Orr. Findings: glazed stone.

Overly: Located near village of Austin, Ohio in Ross County on former Overly farm, now a tree farm owned by the Mead Corp; north of State Route 138. Site: bank of small creek, a tributary of McCortney Run which feeds into the North Fork of Paint Creek. Reported by Mallery in 1950; re-excavated by Conner and Mallery in 1963.

Findings: glazed stones, slag, baked clay, bog ore, charcoal and two furnace pits (one much smaller). Mallery claimed five furnace pits at this site, but Conner can vouch for only two. Portion of remaining main furnace bowl refilled in 1963 after investigation. Artifacts: Conner (also photos).

Pickaway Airport: located just north of Yellowbud, Ohio (Ross County) on opposite side of Scioto River at county airport in Pickaway County. West of U.S. 23. Reported to Orr by Decker in 1985. Findings: glazed stone.

Richards No. 1: located on Richards farm, several miles west and south of Circleville, Ohio in Pickaway County, west of Scioto River, across river from Dupont plant. Reported by landowner Mr. Richards in 1971. Findings: glazed stones.

Richards No. 2: located on Richards property near Yellowbud, Ohio in Ross County. Reported by Don Bennett and Parker in 1993. Findings: glazed stones, 20-pound iron bar, probably cast iron, irregularly shaped, use unknown. Artifacts: APGS (including iron bar).

Ross County Airport: located alongside north end of runway of county airport several miles north of Andersonville, Ohio in Ross County. Reported to Orr by Eley in 1990. Findings: glazed stones, colonial era ceramic bottle fragments. Artifacts: APGS.

Sabre Farm: located on this farm near site of former Fiesta Drive-In Theater, several miles north of Chillicothe, Ohio in Ross County. Reported by Orr. Findings: glazed stones.

Stoutsville: located near this town in Fairfield County, Ohio. Reported by Orr. Findings: glazed stones.

Tarleton: located near this town in Pickaway County, Ohio. Reported by Orr. Findings: glazed stones.

Unioto School: located near this school several miles north of Chillicothe, Ohio in Ross County. Findings: glazed stones. Reported by Parker in 1994

Yellowbud: located on a farm near Yellowbud, Ohio, in Ross County. Reported to Orr by Haynes. Findings: glazed stones, slag.

[Sevenbak]

considering that it is cast with roman lettering, I'd suggest that it's likely post Spanish conquest.

As far as what steel (always) means; it is simply iron with carbon content. This is usually (in the ancient world) created by smelting iron sand. Just heating and quenching iron will not harden it; it must have a significant carbon content (be steel) to harden. Modern stainless and spring steel have other ingredients e.g. chromium.

Wow, you can read Roman lettering? Not me, it's too "cankered with rust"