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What exactly is a 'work'?

bluebell

By bluebell
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bluebell Grand Master

bluebell

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While I appreciate that the LDS think that Temples are focusing on Christ, no one else thinks that.

It's a bit arrogant to believe you speak for all of non-LDS Christianity. I have some non-LDS friends who would be embarrassed by the things you have said and have no desire to be lumped in with your beliefs. Please don't speak for them.

So, I'm sorry but no. Not even close. Temples don't glorify Christ. Not in my view.

You're view is wrong.

I would argue that the helping those in need, who are here on earth would be an act of selflessness.

We do that as well.

Not some ritual done in a temple, where no one benefits.

There is no greater benefit than bringing someone to Christ.

No where did Jesus ever teach or command us to do anything for the departed.

Yes He did.

Rather, he taught that when we help those in need, we are helping him.

Exactly.

When we feed and clothe those without those things, we are feeding and clothing him.

Yes.

Take a tour of Welfare square (they are available for anyone) some time in Salt Lake City if you care to understand how seriously LDS take His commandments to help each other and serve each other.

Never, and no where and at no time did he ever say we could help those who have passed from this life.

Yes He did.

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bluebell Grand Master

bluebell

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John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life

We receive his spirit when we believe. By Faith we are justified.

Romans 4:13 It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, 15because law brings wrath.

You don't understand the scriptures.

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coolrok7 Proficient

coolrok7

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You really haven't illustrated anything coolroc, except that you don't understand LDS doctrine on the subject.

I'm not trying to be snarky, just honest. If you want LDS to give your words any weight, then meet them where they actually are instead of where you claim they are. Otherwise it's incredibly easy to dismiss everything you say.

Obviously we aren't going to agree on some things in this conversation and you certainly don't have to pretend to agree or anything like that. I just mean, if LDS honestly don't understand the quotes you provide the way that you think they should be understood-and the quotes are from other LDS members-you need to change your understanding, or at the very least be open to their's, to have a discussion about them.

Otherwise, there's no use discussing it at all, is there?

:P

Iâ??m being honest as well. Words also have a given meaning in context, not just the definition found in a dictionary. My words only have weight in that they are in agreement with the â??Word of Godâ?, yours too:

But either Jesus Christâ??and the disciples touched and inspired by His spiritâ??spoke the truth or they did not. We believe that they spoke the truth, and that the truth they spoke was the Word of God. (Mormon Church Readers Digest Christmas advertisement, 1972)

In fact, the New Testament contains. . .teachings. . .of. . .the Man of Galilee. This book, therefore will be our standard of judgment or the norm by which we measure the Gospel truths of all the dispensations. (The Gospel Through the Ages, Milton R. Hunter, p.91)

We appeal to the Bible to prove. . .truths received through the restoration. . .are in accord with its teachings. (A Marvelous Work and a Wonder, LeGrand Richards, p.1)

The doctrines of false teachers will not stand the test when tried by the accepted standards of measurement, the scriptures. (Doctrines of Salvation, Joseph Fielding Smith, p.188)

Take up the Bible, compare the religion of the Latter-day Saints with it, and see if it will stand the test. (Journal of Discourses, Brigham Young, 16:46)

Iâ??ve attempted to answer the question of the thread which I view as the major difference in our understanding of the relation of grace/faith to works in the context of Biblical Salvation, not just the definition of what a work is.

Your stated â??confusionâ? was one reason for me joining in the discussion:

It seems like whenever the topic of salvation through faith verses works comes up, one of the stumbling blocks between non-LDS Christians and LDS is the definition of a 'work'.

Sometimes it seems like circular reasoning is used by many non-LDS Christians to explain what is a work and what isn't. Which seems to teach, basically, that anything that Jesus requires us to do to gain salvation, like have faith and repent, can't be works because works play no part in our salvation. . . .

I'm completely confused.

I can only speak for myself. My answer to that was:

Remember, God is a God of order. The confusion comes in (from Mormonism in your case that disputes salvation is by grace through faith) when one doesn't accept what God says through His revealed Word recorded in Scripture (not all so-called "Scripture" is from God). . . .When one refers to a "work" it is something done post justification (salvation) as part of sanctification (being set apart for good works as ones nature has changed) and is identified as a "good work" done as the result of having faith because it is faith that produces the good work (being set apart for works of service). . . .

Perhaps itâ??s more to the definition of what salvation and how it is obtained is rather than works, maybe both. You also asked/I answered:

bluebell, on 08 August 2009 - 11:50 AM, said:

Obviously. So, why is repentance (something that the scriptures teach must be done before one can be saved) NOT a work?

[Coolrok7]

It is a proper response to what God commands. If one wasn't spiritually regenerated, then one wouldn't care about what God commands. After one comes to the knowledge of the truth, then one does what God has laid out for us to do.

It is not a work as we are saved by grace through faith, not by works. Non-LDS Christians do not deny having good works. But the works don't save us, the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin. That is what saves us. Works are a testimony to the faith one has as a result of believing God (period).

I repeat, â??worksâ? are part of Sanctification not Justification and are a proper response post the moment of belief such as in the case of the Phillipian jailer when He asked, â??what must I do to be saved?â? To which the answer came, â??believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. . .â? That very evening, he was baptized.

The relation of the writings of James to Paul in the context of â??faithâ? is the key in understanding Biblical Salvation (ultimately escape from eternal or â??everlastingâ? punishment in hell juxtaposed to eternal life with God in His presence for all believers not just those who supposedly â??meritâ? it (nobody actually does, it is received through faith):

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (Matthew 10:28)

Then He will also say to those on the left hand, â??Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.â?? â??Then they also will answer Him, saying, â??Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?â?? Then He will answer them, saying, â??Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.â?? And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.â? (Matthew 25:41-46)

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? (James 2:14-20)

Note that the condition of fallen angels cannot â??believeâ? unto salvation as there is no salvation for them in that they have already been condemned to â??everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angelsâ? as stated by Jesus. They do have knowledge of Jesus being the â??Son of Godâ? as the following indicates:

And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time? (Matthew 8:29)

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Revelation 20:10)

If one is going to take the obedience to the law route for being saved (which is impossible), then one would have to be like Jesus in that He never sinned as He didnâ??t have a sinful nature like us to begin with and yet was still tempted as in the temptation of Jesus by Satan in the wilderness (He was embodied perfection):

Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need. (Hebrews 4:14-16)

Being judged by our â??worksâ? is the basis for the judgment one receives if the person does not come to faith in Christ of Specific Revelation or Scripture or live by the knowledge of Godâ??s General Revelation referred to in Romans 1.

If oneâ??s name is in the Lambs book of life (happens at the point of Justification when one comes to faith) then oneâ??s imperfect works have already been judged at the cross in which God only sees in us now the righteousness of Jesus.

I believe with James that â??faith without works is deadâ?. The Mormon answer is (both official and unofficial view is â??after all we can doâ? which is not in found in Ephesians where the first part of the verse comes from. It does include the phrase, â??not by worksâ? though):

. . .it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do. . . (2 Nephi 25:23b; JOSEPH SMITH JUNIOR, AUTHOR AND PROPRIETER- from the first printing of the Book of Mormon)

You May Earn Salvation through Christ (THE PURPOSE OF LIFE pamphlet, p.4)

By revelation, our Savior made known again the plan of salvation and exaltation. Resurrection comes as a gift to every man through Jesus Christ, but the reward of the highest eternal opportunities you must earn. It is not just enough to believe in Jesus Christ. You must work and learn, search and pray, repent and improve, know his laws and live them. (YOUR PRE-EARTH LIFE pamphlet, p.10)

Thus, brothers and sisters, along with the great and free gift of the universal and personal resurrection there is also the personal possibility of meriting eternal life. (The Ensign, Elder Neal A. Maxwell, 1997, p.23)

It is through the grace of the Lord Jesus, made possible by his atoning sacrifice. . .This grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts. . . .(AFTER ALL WE CAN DO. . .GRACE WORKS, Robert L. Millet, p.18)

One cannot earn/merit/work for â??eternal life as it is a gift from God. What we have â??earnedâ? is death as we all die or will die (to work out oneâ??s salvation is not the same as to work for oneâ??s salvation):

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23)

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. (Phillipians 2:12-13)

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bluebell Grand Master

bluebell

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Iâ??ve attempted to answer the question of the thread which I view as the major difference in our understanding of the relation of grace/faith to works in the context of Biblical Salvation, not just the definition of what a work is.

Your stated â??confusionâ? was one reason for me joining in the discussion:

And i appreciate it.

My point is only that saying that something has been illustrated when the point is still clearly being contended doesn't accomplish anything.

I repeat, â??worksâ? are part of Sanctification not Justification and are a proper response post the moment of belief such as in the case of the Phillipian jailer when He asked, â??what must I do to be saved?â? To which the answer came, â??believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. . .â? That very evening, he was baptized.

And my response was 'why isn't belief a work?' 'Why isn't repentance a work?'

I know you keep saying that works are a part of sanctification and not justification but you haven't illustrated using the bible where that belief of yours comes from. It seems to just be something that you have decided must be rather than something the bible teaches.

That's where my confusion is-the bible doesn't define what a 'work' is, but you do so where does your definition come from and how is not as arbitrary as it seems?

The relation of the writings of James to Paul in the context of â??faithâ? is the key in understanding Biblical Salvation (ultimately escape from eternal or â??everlastingâ? punishment in hell juxtaposed to eternal life with God in His presence for all believers not just those who supposedly â??meritâ? it (nobody actually does, it is received through faith):

LDS agree.

Note that the condition of fallen angels cannot â??believeâ? unto salvation as there is no salvation for them in that they have already been condemned to â??everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angelsâ? as stated by Jesus. They do have knowledge of Jesus being the â??Son of Godâ? as the following indicates:

Where does Jesus say those devils who believed in Him had already been condemned-i just want to make sure we are on the same page here before discussing it.

If one is going to take the obedience to the law route for being saved (which is impossible), then one would have to be like Jesus in that He never sinned as He didnâ??t have a sinful nature like us to begin with and yet was still tempted as in the temptation of Jesus by Satan in the wilderness (He was embodied perfection):

LDS agree.

If oneâ??s name is in the Lambs book of life (happens at the point of Justification when one comes to faith) then oneâ??s imperfect works have already been judged at the cross in which God only sees in us now the righteousness of Jesus.

What if one falls from grace and his name is removed out of the Lamb's book of life?

I believe with James that â??faith without works is deadâ?. The Mormon answer is (both official and unofficial view is â??after all we can doâ? which is not in found in Ephesians where the first part of the verse comes from. It does include the phrase, â??not by worksâ? though):

The mormon answer is that all we can do is to be saved by grace through a Covenant with Christ. When you misrepresent the 'mormon answer' all YOU do is make it easy for all mormons to ignore you. Your approach is doing more harm to your cause than good.

One cannot earn/merit/work for â??eternal life as it is a gift from God. What we have â??earnedâ? is death as we all die or will die (to work out oneâ??s salvation is not the same as to work for oneâ??s salvation):

LDS agree.

Regardless though, 'work' is still invovled in the process as Paul teaches.

:P

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