What exactly is a 'work'?

[Hughes]

Mostly i'm concerned with you understanding-that you don't agree is secondary.

So you say-i disagree. I think it's kind of odd that you are hung up on 'physical'. Where in the bible is the idea coming from that something is a 'work' if it's physical in nature? I'm not really following you here.

Well, the focus of salvation is the heart of man. Salvation (what you call exaltation I think) is a heart matter, not a physical one. Sin we are forgiven of isn't physical rather spiritual in nature, not physical. It's a fundamental understanding of being "born again". Born of the spirit.

Can i refer to your belief then as 'cheap grace', no matter whether you believe it's 'cheap grace' or not?

You can refer to it however you wish. However, it doesn't logically follow. It cost the son of God his life. Not cheap.

You however are saying that physical action is required to be saved (ie baptism) and physical action by definition is a work.

OR, the previous interpretation of revelation is what is in error and the Spirit is trying to get you straightened out.

Coming from a religion that believes the Jews are in error because they refuse to accept beliefs that they claim contradict their own scriptures, it seems like you wouldn't be as adamant about 'contradiction proves something's not of God' as you are, but i do get what you are saying.

Different interpretation is one thing. But whole sale rejection, and adding of doctrines is a completely different thing.

And it might be interesting to note that Christians have more in common with Jews than they do with the LDS.

If the Spirit is trying to straighten me out, he'd have to rewrite history.

I would say it's more likely that the Thief understood Jesus to mean that he would be with him "in the after life" what ever that was. And the term Paradise is a Jewish term.

I agree, it's o.k. to disagree.

I agree too.

As the The Rich Man and Lazarus story/analogy in Luke 16 describes, there is no such place to repent later of all his sins, you are in error.

I disagree.

The parable teaches that there is no repentance in the next life for those who 'knew the law'. LDS agree. The parable of the pharisee and lazarus doesn't address the doctrine we are speaking about because the pharisee had his chance during mortality. You are trying to make this parable say more than it actually does because you haven't correctly understood the LDS belief about being able to accept Christ in the next life for those who never had the chance in this one.

You are correct in one thing. I don't know enough about LDS beliefs.... yet.

However, no where does the bible, or that parable say that there is no repentance in the next life for those who 'knew the law'. Actually, it says there's no repentance at all, for anyone in the next life.

As the story goes, the thief on the cross defended Jesus, he repented there on the cross.

Where does the bible say he repented?

Where does the bible say he had a change of heart?

Where does the bible say he believed in Christ?

Aren't you reading quite a bit in between the lines here?

Repentance is a change of heart. It's obvious that he had a change of heart, otherwise he wouldn't have defended Jesus as he did.

Repentance doesn't mean to recite words or do certain ordinances.

I am doing what I described earlier. Interpreting the text as it is written. Keeping it in context. How did the Thief understand the message? Why did he say what he said.

You see, I don't care what you church says, or my church for that matter. I'm interested in the truth. I take it at face value first and foremost.

It's clear from the simple interaction that he was defending Christ, and that he wouldn't have done that if he had a hard heart.

I'm not looking at it through the eyes of LDS which is what it appears that you are doing.

I'm taking the text for what it says. It's very plain, and not complicated. This man was told he'd be with Jesus in the afterlife. Period.

Numbers 31

It says, "1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 "Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites. After that, you will be gathered to your people."

3 So Moses said to the people, "Arm some of your men to go to war against the Midianites and to carry out the LORD's vengeance on them.

Your point?

Do you not know that Vengeance and war are not murder? Context is everything.

[bluebell]

Not exactly. I'm not sure it's a point we need to focus on (as in I don't know where it gets us), but Faith with works is faith. There is no such thing as faith without works. That was the point that James was making. Even demons believe and have works (trembling). There is no such thing as dead faith. Rather, its faith in something else other than God that leads to death.

I agree that we probably shouldn't go into it. We have enough on the table right now in the discussion without delving into other places where our beliefs disagree.

Indeed it does. The Rich Man and Lazarus in Luke 16 or Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Which judgement?

Oh my. There are over 600 references to the heart. I don't want to bore you so I'll only reference a couple:

1 Samuel 16:7 But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.

John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

Galations 2:6 As for those who seemed to be importantâ??whatever they were makes no difference to me; God does not judge by external appearance

I would say it even stronger. God only judges the heart.

Those are wonderful references, but they don't actually answer my question.

Where does the bible say that whether we end up in 'heaven' or 'hell' will depend solely upon what's in our heart? It seems like the bible is pretty plain that during the final judgement-God will judge us by our works and that it is our works which will determine whether we will be included or excluded from the book of life.

As for damning people who've never heard. That is patently false and not taught in the bible. Everyone is judged based on the revelation God has given them.

So, it's your position that the bible teaches that someone can NOT accept Christ and NOT have faith in Him, and STILL be saved? Am i understanding your correctly?

As for "then either will save some people who never accepted Christ anyway? Huh? what did you mean here?

I mean, your belief that God will save people who never heard of Jesus Christ because they have 'good hearts' is not taught in the bible.

[bluebell]

Well, the focus of salvation is the heart of man. Salvation (what you call exaltation I think) is a heart matter, not a physical one. Sin we are forgiven of isn't physical rather spiritual in nature, not physical. It's a fundamental understanding of being "born again". Born of the spirit.

But isn't it true that the bible teaches we will be judged by our works and not our hearts?

You can refer to it however you wish. However, it doesn't logically follow. It cost the son of God his life. Not cheap.

That's fine as long as you are alright with me acknowledging that your belief that LDS believe we are saved by our works also isn't logical, because we explicitely teach that we are saved by the Atonement of Christ.

I was just helping you to see that your wrong preception of my beliefs is irrelevant to what i actually believe-so you being adamant that i believe i am 'saved by works' when i repeatedly tell you i don't believe that, is as usefull to our conversation as it would be if i repeatedly told YOU that you believed in cheap grace, regardless of what you had to say about it.

You however are saying that physical action is required to be saved (ie baptism) and physical action by definition is a work.

And paul taught that we should 'work' out our salvation and peter taught that faith without works is dead. Your definitions don't persuade me.

Different interpretation is one thing. But whole sale rejection, and adding of doctrines is a completely different thing.

I agree. I wish other Christians wouldn't do that.

And it might be interesting to note that Christians have more in common with Jews than they do with the LDS.

You have more incommon with a group of people who reject the divinity of Christ and believe that it's our works that determine whether or not one is saved than you do with LDS? That's interesting, but kind of comes off like 'cutting off your nose to spite your face'.

If the Spirit is trying to straighten me out, he'd have to rewrite history.

Some people are pretty stubborn.

Repentance is a change of heart. It's obvious that he had a change of heart, otherwise he wouldn't have defended Jesus as he did.

I agree that it is very probable that the thief had a repentant heart at that moment. But we do have to be careful not to read more into scriptures than they actually say. To take a few words from that thief and declare authoritatively that 'He was saved' seems to add to the bible record something that we don't know.

Repentance doesn't mean to recite words or do certain ordinances.

No one here has claimed it does.

You see, I don't care what you church says, or my church for that matter. I'm interested in the truth. I take it at face value first and foremost.

Hopefully that's how we all try to be. Sometimes seeing the truth is hard though, if it's found in a place we don't expect it. That's why the Jewish people, as a whole, who for so long had waited for their Messiah, did not recognize Him when He had come.

He came in a way and behaved in a way that they believed contradicted the scriptures that had come before Him telling them what He would be. Of coures, the honest in heart knew Him anyway, so like you said, seeking truth, through the Spirit which teaches all things, is our only hope of being 'correct' in our beliefs.

It's clear from the simple interaction that he was defending Christ, and that he wouldn't have done that if he had a hard heart.

I completely agree.

I'm not looking at it through the eyes of LDS which is what it appears that you are doing.

To true. Because i believe that the LDS church is God's church and because i believe that the Holy Spirit has revealed that to me, it would be odd for me NOT to treat the doctrines of that church as if they are the teachings of God Himself.

However, i have done MUCH personal study on these topics, and part of the reason that i AM LDS is because i think, intellectually, that their teachings support the bible better than any other Christian church out there. The more i learn about non-LDS Chrsitianity, the more convinced i become of the truthfulness of the LDS church.

I'm taking the text for what it says. It's very plain, and not complicated. This man was told he'd be with Jesus in the afterlife. Period.

I completely agree, the scriptures are plain here. The thief was told he would be with Jesus in the afterlife. He was NOT told that that day he would gain eternal life.

It says, "1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 "Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites. After that, you will be gathered to your people."

3 So Moses said to the people, "Arm some of your men to go to war against the Midianites and to carry out the LORD's vengeance on them.

Your point?

Do you not know that Vengeance and war are not murder? Context is everything.

YES-THANK YOU!!! You understood exactly what i was trying to get you to understand-which is that context is everything.

What appears to some to be a contradiction, is obviously not so to those who actually understand what was going on. Anytime you believe that the LDS religion contradicts the teachings of God, it is because you don't yet understand them.

[Hughes]

What spirit did Paul receive the moment he believed?

The same Holy Spirit every believer receives.

[Hughes]

Why is there? You tell me? I see that you have assumed quite abit. If the bible has all of Gods words in it that he will ever reveal, why is this so ambigous. You cannot say for certainty taht "but it's not an ordinance or commanded, nor is it needed, nor is it necessary, nor can one human give another human the gift of the spirit" Were is this taught in the bible. You are assuming way to much here. The LDS have other revelations that back up what we believe because "for surely the Lord God will do nothing but He revealeth His secerts to His servants the prohpets". Why is what you claim not found in the bible?

Me assume a lot? Now there's a pot calling the kettle black, huh?

First. Any revelation that comes from God won't contradict the teachings already in the bible. That's the first principle. Not an assumption.

Second. "It's not an ordinance, or commanded or needed, or necessary..." assumed? Nope. No where is any gift of the spirit ordained by any other man, or commanded by God. Rather, gifts of the spirit are given by God himself.

Third. "nor can one human give another human the gift of the spirit." Assumed? Not at all. Countless examples of the holy spirit coming over people. Others may assist, but it never states that Paul or anyone else "gave" them the spirit. That would be strange. It's not a thing that we have control over.

[Hughes]

Is faith or belief a thought?

Actually, it's an action of our spirit. Our mind and brain are certainly involved too though. Your point?

[Hughes]

True-but that still a little confusing because it seems that Apostles didn't actually receive the Holy Ghost until the day of pentacost.

If you assume they didn't have the HS until the day of Pentecost, then it's confusing. If, however, you understand that they received the spirit the moment they believed (or when Jesus breathed on them) then something else happened at Pentecost now didn't it? What might that be? It certainly couldn't have been simply receiving the spirit because they already had that. As the text says, you will be receive "power" when the spirit comes on you, and that's exactly what we see throughout the book of Acts. "Acts of the Holy Spirit" via the believers (didn't matter who), who received power just as Jesus said they would.

[Hughes]

Indeed it does. The Rich Man and Lazarus in Luke 16 or Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Which judgement?

the one that occurs when we die. Just as the analogy Jesus gave shows.

Those are wonderful references, but they don't actually answer my question.

Where does the bible say that whether we end up in 'heaven' or 'hell' will depend solely upon what's in our heart? It seems like the bible is pretty plain that during the final judgement-God will judge us by our works and that it is our works which will determine whether we will be included or excluded from the book of life.

So sorry. Notice in Mark 7 where the Jews noticed that Jesus and his diciples didn't follow all the rules laid out in the law. 5 So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, "Why don't your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with defiled hands?"

Then Jesus explained how they were in error.

21 For from within, out of your hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, 22 adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23 All these evils come from inside and defile you."

You mention the final judgement, which is where the unrighteous are judged, by their works. Yes this is true. That's because they have relied on their works for their salvation. In other words, their faith was in their works. The believers have their name written in the lambs book of life, and not because of works, but because of what Jesus has done. Confusing that judgement with believers is a mistake.

As for damning people who've never heard. That is patently false and not taught in the bible. Everyone is judged based on the revelation God has given them.

So, it's your position that the bible teaches that someone can NOT accept Christ and NOT have faith in Him, and STILL be saved? Am i understanding your correctly?

Nope. You're putting words in my mouth. I said what I said.

God judges based on the revelation they have received. Period.

God doesn't make a rash or unrighteous judgement. If they know about Christ and the work he did, then certainly God judges based on how much they know or have experienced. Everyone is different. Some have lived lives full of abuse and haven't had the same opportunities to know or study what we are able to. They certainly aren't judged based anything but their own knowledge and experience.

As for "then either will save some people who never accepted Christ anyway? Huh? what did you mean here?

I mean, your belief that God will save people who never heard of Jesus Christ because they have 'good hearts' is not taught in the bible.

Oh? I think it's all over the Bible. In the Old Testament, God saved or helped many people who weren't believers or Jewish. And in the New Testament, [john 4] Jesus sat and talked with a Samaritan woman, and she was shocked. In the end, Jesus said, 22You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

So, even here, a non-jew and non believer, but one who followed the spirit of truth as she knew it, and Jesus confirmed that she was on the right track.

[Hughes]

But isn't it true that the bible teaches we will be judged by our works and not our hearts?

Nope. Believers aren't judged. We *Have* eternal life right now... we are fully endowed with salvation right now... all of our sins are already forgiven before we even think to commit them, right now.

The only people judged are non-believers. Believers have their name written in the Lambs book of life.

That's fine as long as you are alright with me acknowledging that your belief that LDS believe we are saved by our works also isn't logical, because we explicitely teach that we are saved by the Atonement of Christ.

I was just helping you to see that your wrong preception of my beliefs is irrelevant to what i actually believe-so you being adamant that i believe i am 'saved by works' when i repeatedly tell you i don't believe that, is as usefull to our conversation as it would be if i repeatedly told YOU that you believed in cheap grace, regardless of what you had to say about it.

And paul taught that we should 'work' out our salvation and peter taught that faith without works is dead. Your definitions don't persuade me.

It's an interesting dance you do. Saved by the Atonement, but only if you're baptized?

Paul never said that you work out your own salvation, because you'll go to hell if you don't... nope. Rather, he's talking about a process that only begins with salvation. James taught that faith without works is dead. Meaning if we really did believe then fruits of that belief will follow. James didn't say, your works are what save you, or that you must do works in order to continue to be saved.

You have more incommon with a group of people who reject the divinity of Christ and believe that it's our works that determine whether or not one is saved than you do with LDS? That's interesting, but kind of comes off like 'cutting off your nose to spite your face'.

The whole focus of the LDS church (seems to me) is not on Christ, but on self. And again, I don't mean to offend, I'm still learning, but this is what I've seen since moving to the SLC area.

Who is right? Well the LDS of course.

And who has the truth? LDS

And who has the prophets today, by which we know they are right? LDS

Who has the best looking churches? LDS

Why did the Newest Temple in South Jordan have to have the Statue of Moroni replaced before it's even open? It was hit with lightening and looked bad.

Who mandates that their followers give tithe by looking at their W-2's? LDS

Who claims as their goal is to become God as the Father is? LSD

Bottom line, the Jewish people who are orthodox, are very giving/loving people, and their theology is very sound (belief in One God, etc.). They may not believe Christ is the Messiah, but they are committed to God and understand the Heart of the matter. That it's not what you do that matters, but who you are that matters.

I agree that it is very probable that the thief had a repentant heart at that moment. But we do have to be careful not to read more into scriptures than they actually say. To take a few words from that thief and declare authoritatively that 'He was saved' seems to add to the bible record something that we don't know.

It's very simple. "You will be with me..." that's all I need to know.

Hopefully that's how we all try to be. Sometimes seeing the truth is hard though, if it's found in a place we don't expect it. That's why the Jewish people, as a whole, who for so long had waited for their Messiah, did not recognize Him when He had come.

He came in a way and behaved in a way that they believed contradicted the scriptures that had come before Him telling them what He would be. Of coures, the honest in heart knew Him anyway, so like you said, seeking truth, through the Spirit which teaches all things, is our only hope of being 'correct' in our beliefs.

The whole early church was Jewish. So some were persuaded, and even Paul. The main principle though is that God never changes. He's the same yesterday, today and forever. So, his message doesn't change either. It's always been the same. So, when I hear a "new" truth as preached by the LDS or some other group, I know it's false if it contradicts what I already know to be true.

To true. Because i believe that the LDS church is God's church and because i believe that the Holy Spirit has revealed that to me, it would be odd for me NOT to treat the doctrines of that church as if they are the teachings of God Himself.

However, i have done MUCH personal study on these topics, and part of the reason that i AM LDS is because i think, intellectually, that their teachings support the bible better than any other Christian church out there. The more i learn about non-LDS Chrsitianity, the more convinced i become of the truthfulness of the LDS church.

And I just the opposite. I can't help but wonder why people believed JS in the beginning. I've done some study of Narcissistic behaviors, and the more I learn about him the more I see a narcissist. And that surprises me that so many people would follow him. It's amazing, and since I work and live with LSD people everyday, and because I'm naturally curious, I've been studying this whole LDS thing.

It surprises me to hear you say that you think that intellectually, that their teaching support the bible, because so many of their teaching undermine what the bible teaches.

I completely agree, the scriptures are plain here. The thief was told he would be with Jesus in the afterlife. He was NOT told that that day he would gain eternal life.

A distinction only made by the LDS. The understanding throughout the Bible is that if you are with Jesus/God, then you have eternal life.

YES-THANK YOU!!! You understood exactly what i was trying to get you to understand-which is that context is everything.

What appears to some to be a contradiction, is obviously not so to those who actually understand what was going on. Anytime you believe that the LDS religion contradicts the teachings of God, it is because you don't yet understand them.

Oh? How many Gods are there?

[bluebell]

I'm going to be out of town until saturday or sunday, so i'll be back then to respond.

Thanks everyone for the great discussion so far and please, no one get crabby and get the thread shut down before i can get back to it.

Have a great weekend!

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Oh? How many Gods are there?

THe bible doesn't say, it only says that "to us there is one God and one Lord". It never said that other Gods didn't exsist. Do not make the mistake that because there are others that are called Gods that we must worship them or even acknowledge them.

Your question is in an attempt to find fault with somethings that you do not understand as Bluebell's previous post ironically pointed out. Here it is again.

"What appears to some to be a contradiction, is obviously not so to those who actually understand what was going on. Anytime you believe that the LDS religion contradicts the teachings of God, it is because you don't yet understand them."

[LeSellers]

Who mandates that their followers give tithe by looking at their W-2's? LDS

CFR In fifty years of paying tithing, I have never had to show a bishop or anyone else in the Church my W-2 or any other documentation.

You are totally fabricating your "facts", which is what I have come to expect from antis.

A distinction only made by the LDS. The understanding throughout the Bible is that if you are with Jesus/God, then you have eternal life.

But Jesus did not tell the thief that he would be with Him and God in Paradise, but only that he'd be with Him (Jesus).

It's not a subtle distinction.

Lehi

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

A distinction only made by the LDS. The understanding throughout the Bible is that if you are with Jesus/God, then you have eternal life.

You missed my other posts on the other thread here it is

Jesus is not God the Father.

Of course not.

I thought you and I would agree here.

Jesus is one in essence with the Father, but separate in person. He didn't have to do anything. He ascended because that's where he wanted be.

So you do not think they are 3 in 1 and 1 in 3?

What does essance mean?

And your last sentance deos not make any sense in the questions I raised. Who said anything about what Jesus wanted.

If Jesus is not The Father, and you claimed that heaven is were God is. And if Jesus didn't ascend unto "your God and my God and your Father and my Father" who is in hevean, then how can you claim that the thief went to hevean when Paradise and Hevean do not seem to be the same places since the Father was not in paradise as Jesus had not yet ascended unto his Father.

You disagree?

I said "huh", which denotes that I didn't understand what you are saying. Care to explain it a little? IOW I try not to disagree with things that I don't understand is being asked.

I cannot say what the thief's final judgment was, but the statement from Jesus to the thief did not promise the fullness of God's blessings, only that he would be with Jesus in Paradise that day.

We know that several days later, Jesus had not yet ascended to His Father. We also know that Jesus preached to spirits in prison(1 Peter 3:19). The theif, more than likely, was preached the gospel in Paradise, but nothing is recorded from there. Jesus offered the thief an opportunity. The record is silent on the outcome.

Good point. I am glad you mentioned this.

Here it is in the fullness

1Pet 3:18-21

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by fwater.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

I have a few questions.

When did Christ go to the spirits in prison?

What is Spirit Prison and why do no protestant denominations seem to teach never about it? (Catholics teach something like the LDS do)

And why does Peter think that Baptism doth now save us? Thanks.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

CFR In fifty years of paying tithing, I have never had to show a bishop or anyone else in the Church my W-2 or any other documentation.

You are totally fabricating your "facts", which is what I have come to expect from antis.

But Jesus did not tell the thief that he would be with Him and God in Paradise, but only that he'd be with Him (Jesus).

It's not a subtle distinction.

Lehi

This is the point I am trying to make in my post above. If Christ and the Father are not the same person and Christ didn't ascend to His Father, then they both were in different places at the same time. Hence Paradise is not the same as Heaven.

[LeSellers]

Who mandates that their followers give tithe by looking at their W-2's? LDS

CFR I have never had to produce any documentation of my income.

You are fabricating your facts, as all antis do at one point or another, and usually at many points along the way.

Lehi

[Tanyan]

[bluebell]

The same Holy Spirit every believer receives.

That sounds good, but it doesn't agree with what the bible has to say.

Paul was a believer after his vision of the Savior, but we are told in Acts 9 that he didn't receive the Holy Ghost until Ananias came to him (in fact, we are told that Christ specifically sent Ananias to Paul so that he could receive the Holy Ghost).

Of course the Holy Ghost witnesses to us of truth, and He can do that whenever He needs to. The gift of the Holy Ghost though is something different. It is the gift of having the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost, rather than Him only as a witness when we are presented with truth.

[bluebell]

If you assume they didn't have the HS until the day of Pentecost, then it's confusing. If, however, you understand that they received the spirit the moment they believed (or when Jesus breathed on them) then something else happened at Pentecost now didn't it?

First, you need to be more clear here.

Which is it?

Did the apostles receive the Holy Ghost the moment they believed or was it when Jesus breathed on them, in your belief? The apostles believed months if not years before Jesus breathed on them, so your statement above, as if they believed and He breathed on them at the same moment-doesn't make sense.

What might that be? It certainly couldn't have been simply receiving the spirit because they already had that. As the text says, you will be receive "power" when the spirit comes on you, and that's exactly what we see throughout the book of Acts. "Acts of the Holy Spirit" via the believers (didn't matter who), who received power just as Jesus said they would.

So, are you saying that after receiving the Gift of the Holy Ghost, the Spirit is not always with someone but comes and goes and that this 'power' manifests itself when the spirit comes?

I'm not really following you here.

[bluebell]

the one that occurs when we die. Just as the analogy Jesus gave shows.

Let me ask another question-

How many judgements does the bible teach will occur?

So sorry. Notice in Mark 7 where the Jews noticed that Jesus and his diciples didn't follow all the rules laid out in the law. 5 So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, "Why don't your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with defiled hands?"

Then Jesus explained how they were in error.

21 For from within, out of your hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, 22 adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23 All these evils come from inside and defile you."

Yes, our evil actions certainly do come from within, but Jesus says nothing here about the pharisees being judged solely by what's in their hearts. Maybe we should let this train of thought die, since we obviously aren't understanding each other and are probably talking past each other anyway.

You mention the final judgement, which is where the unrighteous are judged, by their works. Yes this is true. That's because they have relied on their works for their salvation. In other words, their faith was in their works. The believers have their name written in the lambs book of life, and not because of works, but because of what Jesus has done. Confusing that judgement with believers is a mistake.

Actually, the book of Revelation says that EVERY man will be judged by their works-believers and unbelievers alike.

Were you aware of that? I'm not asking to be snide, but because what you just said above is completely contrary to what the bible actually says so i'm not sure, if you new it before, where you are coming from.

Nope. You're putting words in my mouth. I said what I said.

I'm sorry, that's not my intent. It's just that sometimes i'm not clear on what you are saying exactly.

When you said-I do believe that God makes a righteous judgement of everyone, as he sees everyone's heart.-i thought you were saying that He judges everyone like that, even people who lived and never heard the name of Jesus Christ and therefore never had teh chance to have faith in Him.

Is that what you meant? If it is, then how can God judge such people as 'saved' unless He saves them without their having to have faith in Christ?

God judges based on the revelation they have received. Period.

Well, the bible disagrees with this statement where it teaches that God judges us on our works as well, as i've already pointed out above so i won't go into it again, but i have to ask. How does God judge those people who had good hearts but never heard the teachings of Jesus, or even His name, simply because of the time and place where they lived? Can any of those billions of people be saved in your belief?

God doesn't make a rash or unrighteous judgement. If they know about Christ and the work he did, then certainly God judges based on how much they know or have experienced. Everyone is different. Some have lived lives full of abuse and haven't had the same opportunities to know or study what we are able to. They certainly aren't judged based anything but their own knowledge and experience.

What of the people who never knew about Christ? Will God save them without them every having had faith in Christ?

Oh? I think it's all over the Bible. In the Old Testament, God saved or helped many people who weren't believers or Jewish.

You do realize that we are talking about 'saved' in the eternal sense, right? Who in the OT did God grant eternal life to who weren't believers? Who in the NT?

If it's all over the bible then there should be a number of references taht you can share.

And in the New Testament, [john 4] Jesus sat and talked with a Samaritan woman, and she was shocked. In the end, Jesus said, 22You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

Um, Jesus taught a few samaritans, for sure, but where does it say that these people were 'saved'?

Do you equate hearing about the gospel to being saved? You've totally lost me with these examples because they don't show at all what you are saying they show. I'm sorry but you're going to have to clarify because i have no idea what you are talking about here.

So, even here, a non-jew and non believer, but one who followed the spirit of truth as she knew it, and Jesus confirmed that she was on the right track.

First, the samaritans were of the House of Israel so they were 'jewish'.

Second, where does Jesus confirm that the woman was on the right track? He tells her that she's NOT on the right track, tells her what the right track IS and that's pretty much it.

Third, i didn't ask about God teaching nonbelievers-i asked specifially about God saving nonbelievers. This example above does NOT teach that the samaritan woman was saved so it does not apply.

[bluebell]

Nope. Believers aren't judged. We *Have* eternal life right now... we are fully endowed with salvation right now... all of our sins are already forgiven before we even think to commit them, right now.

Again, the bible teaches differently.

Revelation teaches that all men are judged, judged by their works actually.

Believers-the saved-are justified through the grace of Christ right now, yes. But believers will STILL be judged.

The only people judged are non-believers. Believers have their name written in the Lambs book of life.

Revelation 20: 12-15

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Regardless, everyone is judged.

It's an interesting dance you do. Saved by the Atonement, but only if you're baptized?

I think it's interesting that you can't see your own quick step.

Saved by the Atonement, but only if you have faith? Saved by the Atonement, but only if you repent? Why don't you believe the Atonement can save you without your faith or your repentance?

Have you ever stopped to ask yourself WHY you have to have faith in Christ to be saved? Is it because the Atonement is insufficient to save you without it?

Paul never said that you work out your own salvation, because you'll go to hell if you don't... nope. Rather, he's talking about a process that only begins with salvation.

Aren't you putting words in his mouth?

James taught that faith without works is dead. Meaning if we really did believe then fruits of that belief will follow. James didn't say, your works are what save you, or that you must do works in order to continue to be saved.

Can a person who has no good works be saved? Yes or no.

The whole focus of the LDS church (seems to me) is not on Christ, but on self.

Have you gone to a worship service at an LDS church? Have you read the book of mormon? Have you met with the missionaries to see what the LDS church believes?

And again, I don't mean to offend, I'm still learning, but this is what I've seen since moving to the SLC area.

Don't worry, i'm not offended.

Who is right? Well the LDS of course.

And who has the truth? LDS

And who has the prophets today, by which we know they are right? LDS

Who has the best looking churches? LDS

Why did the Newest Temple in South Jordan have to have the Statue of Moroni replaced before it's even open? It was hit with lightening and looked bad.

Is this REALLY any different than protestant churches? Are the LDS you may have come in contact with really behaving towards you any differently than you are behaving towards them?

I mean, talking to you and other protestants, i hear-

Who isn't right? The LDS.

Who denies the ATonement of Christ? The LDS.

Who is only concerned with themselves? The LDS

Who interprets the bible correctly? The protestants

Who wants to work their way to heaven? The LDS

Who thinks they can be God? The LDS

I also don't mean to offend-only to point a light where maybe there hasn't been one yet. It's easy to feel ganged up on when there are a lot of people around who believe differently than you do, and yes, some people, no matter what they say they beleive, are just jerks. These are issues with human nature though, not the LDS church.

Who mandates that their followers give tithe by looking at their W-2's? LDS

I'm sorry but this is laughable. Who the heck told you this? It isn't true. I've been a member for over 20 years and no one has EVER asked to see my w-2's. Also, tithing isn't mandatory anyway. I know a ton of LDS who don't pay their tithing as they should but they are still LDS, still welcome at church, still have jobs at church like teaching other members.

Whoever told you this, you should probably not listen to anymore. If they got this wrong then who knows what else they don't understand correctly and believe they do.

Who claims as their goal is to become God as the Father is? LSD

Are goal is to become like God through becoming a joint-heir with Christ and gain all that the father hath. We believe that then we will be gods (little 'g') because of who we will be like. We believe that even in that state though that we will still worship God and we will never be equal to Him.

What is so blasphemous about that belief?

I'm going to post my responses to the rest of this post in a separate post so this one isn't too long.....

[bluebell]

Continuing on....

Bottom line, the Jewish people who are orthodox, are very giving/loving people, and their theology is very sound (belief in One God, etc.). They may not believe Christ is the Messiah, but they are committed to God and understand the Heart of the matter. That it's not what you do that matters, but who you are that matters.

The Jewish religion teaches that it is what you DO that matters. It is our actions that will determine where we go after we die.

So really, they are guilty of the same thing you have been accusing me of, as well as being guilty of rejecting the Savior yet you still claim to have more in common with them than LDS? Not that i don't have much respect for the Jewish faith (I knew a few Jews in California because the LDS church allowed the local synagogue to use it's building when they had need because their building was too small for use during some of their Holy Days). Still though, the comparison makes no sense.

It's very simple. "You will be with me..." that's all I need to know.

We'll agree to disagree.

The main principle though is that God never changes. He's the same yesterday, today and forever. So, his message doesn't change either. It's always been the same. So, when I hear a "new" truth as preached by the LDS or some other group, I know it's false if it contradicts what I already know to be true.

I, being LDS, completely agree that God never changes, but i must understand that differently than you do because i realize that God DOES change in the way that He interacts with His children and does change the things He teaches them.

Otherwise, the Jewish people are correct and the NT is a blasphemy because it 'changed' the laws that God had taught early and added to the teachings they already had.

And I just the opposite. I can't help but wonder why people believed JS in the beginning.

The testimony of the Holy Ghost.

I've done some study of Narcissistic behaviors, and the more I learn about him the more I see a narcissist.

1 Cor. 26-29

For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

And that surprises me that so many people would follow him.

I think Saul thought the same thing of the followers of Jesus for a while.

It's amazing, and since I work and live with LSD people everyday, and because I'm naturally curious, I've been studying this whole LDS thing.

Awesome-always important to gain understanding of those different than us.

It surprises me to hear you say that you think that intellectually, that their teaching support the bible, because so many of their teaching undermine what the bible teaches.

I haven't found any.

I've found a lot of protestant teachings that it undermines, a few Catholic teachings that it undermines, some Jewish teachings that it undermines and a lot of interprtations of the bible that it undermines, but no actual biblical teachings.

A distinction only made by the LDS. The understanding throughout the Bible is that if you are with Jesus/God, then you have eternal life.

I'm not talking about anyone else but the thief that we are speaking of. To no one else has Jesus said those words to and in no other circumstance do we know where Jesus was and where He wasn't on the day that He is speaking about.

Let's not try to make our discussion about the thief into more than it actually is.

Oh? How many Gods are there?

1 Cor. 8: 5-6

5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)

6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

No matter how many gods in heaven, to us there is but one God, the Father.

[Mudcat]

Lehi,

My last post to you #107 still remains unanswered.

I suppose I should count this as a concession of sorts on your part? but a concession to what, I am not certain.

Mudcat

[Hughes]

THe bible doesn't say, it only says that "to us there is one God and one Lord". It never said that other Gods didn't exsist. Do not make the mistake that because there are others that are called Gods that we must worship them or even acknowledge them.

Your question is in an attempt to find fault with somethings that you do not understand as Bluebell's previous post ironically pointed out. Here it is again.

"What appears to some to be a contradiction, is obviously not so to those who actually understand what was going on. Anytime you believe that the LDS religion contradicts the teachings of God, it is because you don't yet understand them."

Even the Book of Mormon:

Alma 11 -"28 Now Zeezrom said: Is there more than one God?

29 And he answered, No.

30 Now Zeezrom said unto him again: How knowest thou these things?

31 And he said: An aangel hath made them known unto me."

And the Bible teaches what?

Isaiah 43:10 "Before me no god was formed,

nor will there be one after me.

I must be mistaken, and not understanding something... hmm...

[Hughes]

CFR In fifty years of paying tithing, I have never had to show a bishop or anyone else in the Church my W-2 or any other documentation.

You are totally fabricating your "facts", which is what I have come to expect from antis.

I am only telling you what I was told. Maybe that's not the practice of your ward or Bishop. My only point is that it's a focus on self, not christ.

It was told to me in the context of, how the church is going to help me "follow" all the commands, by making sure I'm paying the right amount to the church. So, every year they sit down with the Bishop to "make sure" they are paying the proper amount.

But Jesus did not tell the thief that he would be with Him and God in Paradise, but only that he'd be with Him (Jesus).

It's not a subtle distinction.

Lehi

There is no distinction between being with Jesus and God, in the bible. They are used interchangeably.

[Hughes]

You missed my other posts on the other thread here it is

Jesus is not God the Father.

Separate in Person, but one in essence.

So you do not think they are 3 in 1 and 1 in 3?

I suppose you could say it that way.

What does essance mean?

Essence is "what they are made of." so to speak. Jesus, God the father and God the Holy spirit all share the same "Godness" or essence.

And your last sentance deos not make any sense in the questions I raised. Who said anything about what Jesus wanted.

Ok.

If Jesus is not The Father, and you claimed that heaven is were God is. And if Jesus didn't ascend unto "your God and my God and your Father and my Father" who is in hevean, then how can you claim that the thief went to hevean when Paradise and Hevean do not seem to be the same places since the Father was not in paradise as Jesus had not yet ascended unto his Father.

Unless Jesus is just as much God as the Father is. Being where he is then is equal to being in Heaven.

too tired to continue tonight... sorry.