Reflections on the Godhead

[Lightbearer]

So many topics dwell upon the traditional Christian Trinity I thought it may be of interest to dwell on the LDS Godhead and what it means to LDS and how our salvation and exaltation is connected to deity. First one of the primary stumbling blocks of traditional Christianity in contrast with the restored Gospel is the undeniable fact that we as LDS do believe in an "expanding" Godhead. While when we speak of God being the same yesterday today and forever we must keep in mind that this concept must be looked at in proper perspective. First the following:

(D&C 35:1-2) "LISTEN to the voice of the Lord your God, even Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, whose course is one eternal round, the same today as yesterday, and forever. I am Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who was crucified for the sins of the world, even as many as will believe on my name, that they may become the sons of God, even one in me as I am one in the Father, as the Father is one in me, that we may be one."

Notice here that God is spoken of in both the plural and the singular. Just as was stated in the book of John, Christ explains how we can become "one" with Him and His Father. Now Jesus is not the same being as the Father, yet He is one with the Father just as we may become one with them. As the following indicates:

(D&C 93:2-39) "And that I am the true light that lighteth every man that cometh into the world; And that I am in the Father, and the Father in me, and the Father and I are oneâ?? The Father because he gave me of his fulness, and the Son because I was in the world and made flesh my tabernacle, and dwelt among the sons of men. I was in the world and received of my Father, and the works of him were plainly manifest. And John saw and bore record of the fulness of my glory, and the fulness of Johnâ??s record is hereafter to be revealed. And he bore record, saying: I saw his glory, that he was in the beginning, before the world was; Therefore, in the beginning the Word was, for he was the Word, even the messenger of salvationâ?? The light and the Redeemer of the world; the Spirit of truth, who came into the world, because the world was made by him, and in him was the life of men and the light of men. The worlds were made by him; men were made by him; all things were made by him, and through him, and of him. And I, John, bear record that I beheld his glory, as the glory of the Only Begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth, even the Spirit of truth, which came and dwelt in the flesh, and dwelt among us. And I, John, saw that he received not of the fulness at the first, but received grace for grace; And he received not of the fulness at first, but continued from grace to grace, until he received a fulness; And thus he was called the Son of God, because he received not of the fulness at the first. And I, John, bear record, and lo, the heavens were opened, and the Holy Ghost descended upon him in the form of a dove, and sat upon him, and there came a voice out of heaven saying: This is my beloved Son. And I, John, bear record that he received a fulness of the glory of the Father; And he received all power, both in heaven and on earth, and the glory of the Father was with him, for he dwelt in him. And it shall come to pass, that if you are faithful you shall receive the fulness of the record of John. I give unto you these sayings that you may understand and know how to worship, and know what you worship, that you may come unto the Father in my name, and in due time receive of his fulness. For if you keep my commandments you shall receive of his fulness, and be glorified in me as I am in the Father; therefore, I say unto you, you shall receive grace for grace. And now, verily I say unto you, I was in the beginning with the Father, and am the Firstborn; And all those who are begotten through me are partakers of the glory of the same, and are the church of the Firstborn. Ye were also in the beginning with the Father; that which is Spirit, even the Spirit of truth; And truth is knowledge of things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come; And whatsoever is more or less than this is the spirit of that wicked one who was a liar from the beginning. The Spirit of truth is of God. I am the Spirit of truth, and John bore record of me, saying: He received a fulness of truth, yea, even of all truth; And no man receiveth a fulness unless he keepeth his commandments. He that keepeth his commandments receiveth truth and light, until he is glorified in truth and knoweth all things. Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be. All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence. Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the light. And every man whose spirit receiveth not the light is under condemnation. For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy; And when separated, man cannot receive a fulness of joy. The elements are the tabernacle of God; yea, man is the tabernacle of God, even temples; and whatsoever temple is defiled, God shall destroy that temple. The glory of God is intelligence, or, in other words, light and truth. Light and truth forsake that evil one. Every spirit of man was innocent in the beginning; and God having redeemed man from the fall, men became again, in their infant state, innocent before God. And that wicked one cometh and taketh away light and truth, through disobedience, from the children of men, and because of the tradition of their fathers."

There is so much in the forgoing quote that I do not know where to begin, but it is quite obvious that we do not believe we "earn" salvation or exaltation on our own merits as some suggest. These quotes are not from the Journal of Discourses or some other esoteric text, it is from the standard works. Our Father in Heaven is raising a "family of gods" I know to some this may seem very blasphemous, but to me it glorifies God and man and shows our true potential. But not separate and apart from Christ or God. My understanding is that we are a part of God, just as the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are a part of the one Godhead. When looked at from this perspective it is far less "offensive" or odd or presumptuous looking on our part and fits in rather well with what John said:

(1 John 3:1-3) "Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure."

To me this is the "good news" of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, that we are not mere corrupt creatures, but that we are of a noble birthright and that through our elder brother we can become the "sons of God" and we can reach the divine potential that God has for us. We must follow the commandments of Christ in order to be exalted with Him:

(D&C 14:7) "And, if you keep my commandments and endure to the end you shall have eternal life, which gift is the greatest of all the gifts of God."

Note here that it is a gift of God and that in order to obtain that gift we must endure to the end in keeping His commandments. This in no way is demeaning to the grace of God, on the contrary it shows how He is consistent and that we must fill the requirements God places on us in order to obtain such a glorious gift. Of ourselves we could not gain this gift, it is only in and through Christ that we can come unto the Father and be adopted again as His sons and daughters.

[Sargon]

My wife and I were recently talking about how there is a whole spectrum of feelings about our relationship to Heavenly Father among LDS. We all recognize that in a very literal and technical way we are of the same species as God, and that we are his children. But, we vary in the way we approach our personal relationship to him.

For some, Heavenly Father is more of a Heavenly "Dad" or even "Daddy" and they snuggle up to him in their prayers and view God and their earthly mortal "dad" in a similar light. This end of the spectrum might casually refer to Jesus as our "elder brother."

On the opposite extreme other attributes of Heavenly Father are emphasized. He is approached more as the ruler of the Universe, the all-powerful Creator of the world and the one who exacts terrible justice and mercy. For these, they may not begin their prayers with "Dear Heavenly Father, we thank thee for this day...". This end of the spectrum probably isn't likely to refer to Jesus as our "elder brother", though they recognize the technical truth behind it.

I don't necessarily view either end of the spectrum as inappropriate. I think there certainly is room for differences in how we view the relationship of God to man. Both approaches still affirm the essential fact that God is our father and is an exalted man. I imagine most of us fall somewhere between.

[Sevenbak]

One of my favorite references when dealing with this accusation about angels and men being different species is to use Rev. 22, where John is about to worship an angel and is rebuked by him. Not only does the passage deal with species, but that the angel was also a prophet. I've yet to hear a good response from anyone refuting the Church.

Revelation 22:9

Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

[Nevo]

One of my favorite references when dealing with this accusation about angels and men being different species is to use Rev. 22, where John is about to worship an angel and is rebuked by him. Not only does the passage deal with species, but that the angel was also a prophet. I've yet to hear a good response from anyone refuting the Church.

Revelation 22:9

Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

The angel stating that he is John's "fellow servant" indicates that they serve the same God. It doesn't indicate that they're of the same species.

[Sevenbak]

The angel stating that he is John's "fellow servant" indicates that they serve the same God. It doesn't indicate that they're of the same species.

"of thy brethren"

[Cold Steel]

I've never been successful at getting sectarian Christians to recognize that God, men and angels are all alike in appearance when only man needs to be as he is. In other words, why does God need to have hands, feet, a nose, mouth, fingers, toes, etc.? He's GOD! Why would his form be so accommodating of a terrestrial existence? The same is true of angels. Why do they, in appearance, resemble both God and humans? The Bible states that Jesus is in the "express image" of the Father.

If the Father is a spirit, then what does it profit the Son to go from being a SPIRIT to being FLESH AND BONE? The Jehovah's Witnesses, for all the garbage they take, at least see the inconsistency in this. They have said that Jesus was resurrected a "spirit," but was able to "materialize" a body. The real body of Jesus was taken from the tomb and resides elsewhere, perhaps to be displayed during the Millennium.

The NEW TESTAMENT describes Jesus as God's Son and like Him in every way. It makes little sense to think that Jesus achieves PERFECTION by becoming increasingly UNLIKE the Father. Yet sectarian Christianity is based on exactly that. And the scriptures are almost entirely silent on the types of beings we know as ANGELS. They seem to have the same appearance of humans, the same intelligence, even, at times, the same flaws. If MAN can, through CHRIST, become like CHRIST, what is the potential of ANGELS, if any?

Mormonism ties it all nicely together so that it makes sense. We know that GOD, ANGELS and MEN all are the same race and type of being, just at various stages of development. The universe is composed of: 1) that which ACTS, and 2) that which is acted upon. The first is called INTELLIGENCE while the second is MATTER. Angels helped create the Earth under the direction of the Savior, thus showing the ability to act upon. So, too, does man operate via the priesthood, showing the same ability. In fact, all intelligence has the power to act upon matter. Even a bug can organize matter to form a home or means of protection.

Why this doesn't make sense to sectarians is a mystery.

.

[Nevo]

"of thy brethren"

Right. He's the fellow servant of John's brethren the prophets too.

• ESV Revelation 22:9 but he said to me, "You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God."
  
• KJV Revelation 22:9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.
  
• NAB Revelation 22:9 But he said to me, "Don't! I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brothers the prophets and of those who keep the message of this book. Worship God."
  
• NAS Revelation 22:9 And he said to me, "Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book; worship God."
  
• NAU Revelation 22:9 But he said to me, "Do not do that. I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book. Worship God."
  
• NIV Revelation 22:9 But he said to me, "Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers the prophets and of all who keep the words of this book. Worship God!"
  
• NJB Revelation 22:9 but he said, 'Do no such thing: I am your fellow-servant and the fellow-servant of your brothers the prophets and those who keep the message of this book. God alone you must worship.'
  
• NRS Revelation 22:9 but he said to me, "You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your comrades the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God!"
  
• RSV Revelation 22:9 but he said to me, "You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brethren the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God."
  

[Nevo]

I've never been successful at getting sectarian Christians to recognize that God, men and angels are all alike in appearance when only man needs to be as he is. In other words, why does God need to have hands, feet, a nose, mouth, fingers, toes, etc.? He's GOD! Why would his form be so accommodating of a terrestrial existence?

But these are good questions. Why would the Creator of the universe need a body specifically adapted to life on this particular planet? Why would he need ears, lungs, sweat glands, a voicebox, a digestive system, etc.? Particularly since our anatomy apparently evolved from fish, among other things.

[Deborah]

My DIL and I were talking about this very thing on Sunday. Both of us are converts and we don't understand the difficulty some have in dealing with the concept of the LDS Godhead. This is what we believed before we found the LDS church, as this is what the Bible teaches. The LDS view is the only one that makes sense and the only one that doesn't require the twisting of scripture.

For some reason non-LDS seem to think this minimizes God. But I think it makes him greater than they can imagine not only that he has such love for his children he would allow them to become like him but that he has the power to do so.

[BCSpace]

In other words, why does God need to have hands, feet, a nose, mouth, fingers, toes, etc.?

26 And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it.

27 And I saw as the colour of amber, as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness round about.

28 As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the Lord. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake.

Ezekiel 1

[Sargon]

But these are good questions. Why would the Creator of the universe need a body specifically adapted to life on this particular planet? Why would he need ears, lungs, sweat glands, a voicebox, a digestive system, etc.? Particularly since our anatomy apparently evolved from fish, among other things.

Ask Jesus. He's the one that decided to resurrect and retain his body for eternity (assuming you believe it). I'm sure he has a good reason for it.

[Sevenbak]

Right. He's the fellow servant of John's brethren the prophets too.

I suppose it's how you read it. John is about to worship and angel, and the angel puts himself on the same level as Josh, saying he is one of them. Isn't that how you see it? He's more than just a fellow servant, he's "of thy brethren the prophets". Why would he even bring up John's other servants? He's talking to John about being equal with John.

I guess that's why there are so many interpretations, and different Churches, over 30 thousand different Christian denominations at last count.

Good thing we have modern revelation and prophets and apostles to clear up pure doctrine.

[Nevo]

He's more than just a fellow servant, he's "of thy brethren the prophets".

That's not what the verse says. Your interpretation is based on a misreading of the KJV. The angel says he's a fellow servant of John and also a fellow servant of John's brethren the prophets. He doesn't say he's one of the prophetic brotherhood: "for I am thy fellowservant, and [the fellow servant] of thy brethren the prophets." The other translations I provided make this explicit. The angel is a fellow servant of God, not a fellow prophet.

[Sevenbak]

That's not what the verse says. Your interpretation is based on a misreading of the KJV. The angel says he's a fellow servant of John and also a fellow servant of John's brethren the prophets. He doesn't say he's one of the prophetic brotherhood: "for I am thy fellowservant, and [the fellow servant] of thy brethren the prophets." The other translations I provided make this explicit. The angel is a fellow servant of God, not a fellow prophet.

Nevo, the key word is of.

OF.

I am OF thy brethren the prophets.

Look at the entire context. "for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets." The angel is saying he's equal with John, don't worship me.

Again, it's how you look at it.

But thanks for your interp. You've gone father than others who have tried.

[Deborah]

The angel is a fellow servant of God, not a fellow prophet.

An example of twisting a simple reading of the text. Which makes no difference because if he's a fellow servant than they are still equals.

[Nevo]

An example of twisting a simple reading of the text. Which makes no difference because if he's a fellow servant than they are still equals.

I haven't twisted a simple reading of the text, Deborah. Did you look at the other eight translations I provided? They all agree. This isn't a difficult passage; its meaning is straightforward.

Just because the angel and John both serve the same God doesn't mean they are "equals." It certainly doesn't imply that they belong to the same order of beings. The point is that they are both subordinate to God, who alone is deserving of worship.

[Sevenbak]

I haven't twisted a simple reading of the text, Deborah. Did you look at the other eight translations I provided? They all agree. This isn't a difficult passage; its meaning is straightforward.

Just because the angel and John both serve the same God doesn't mean they are "equals." It certainly doesn't imply that they belong to the same order of beings. The point is that they are both subordinate to God, who alone is deserving of worship.

Yeah, it's interesting how all the modern translations leave out "of thy brethren"

And I thought we were the ones usually smeared for believing the bible "as far as it is translated correctly"

[Deborah]

Just because the angel and John both serve the same God doesn't mean they are "equals." It certainly doesn't imply that they belong to the same order of beings.

the definition of fellow in this context is "a person belonging to the same rank or class; equal; peer: " Twist it as you like, but the angel was pointing out that they were of the same rank and therefore the angel was not to be worshipped.

[Lightbearer]

Not to derail my own thread but I find it very peculiar that modern day traditional Christians find this concept so offensive (that God and men are of the same species) and often use scripture to argue their points, deny these truths, instead of relying on the modern revelations from God just as the Jews did in the time of the Savior. See the following:

(John 10:24-40) "Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Fatherâ??s name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Fatherâ??s hand. I and my Father are one. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand, And went away again beyond Jordan into the place where John at first baptized; and there he abode."

It seems curious that the very doctrine that so offended the Jews and caused them to go into a murderous rage, is the same doctrine that caused the mobs of Carthage to shed the blood of the Prophet Joseph. To this day this doctrine is so offensive that it is the central issue which all hell boils over to condemn the Church over. Perhaps it is because it is the most vital and important of all the doctrines of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

[Nevo]

the definition of fellow in this context is "a person belonging to the same rank or class; equal; peer: " Twist it as you like, but the angel was pointing out that they were of the same rank and therefore the angel was not to be worshipped.

You're doing all the twisting, my friend. According to the Oxford English Dictionary, the primary definition of fellow is "one who shares with another in a possession, official dignity, or in the performance of any work; a partner, colleague, co-worker." The second definition given is "one that is associated with another in habitual or temporary companionship; a companion, associate, comrade." Neither of these definitions require that the persons be of equal rank.

The Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (BDAG), defines syndoulos ("fellow servant") as follows:

1. one who, along w. others, is in a relationship of total obedience to one master or owner, fellow-slave (e.g. Herodas 5, 56) Mt 24:49; Hs 5, 2, 9f.

2. a subordinate in total obedience to a ruler, slave, esp. typical of eastern social perceptions

a. of the relationship betw. an oriental court official and the ruler Mt 18:28f, 31, 33.

b. of a relationship to the heavenly [Lord].

c. In Rv the revealing angel calls himself the fellow-slave of the seer and his brothers 19:10; 22:9.â??New Docs 2, 54. M-M. TW.

[volgadon]

The Bible never actually says what an angel is, apart from being a messenger.

[Sevenbak]

The Bible never actually says what an angel is, apart from being a messenger.

The bible clearly says that angels are in the form of men.

Concerning the two angels who visited Lot's home in Sodom, the local residents inquired, "Where are the men which came in to thee this night?" (Gen. 19:1, 5).

Daniel described the angel Gabriel as having "the appearance of a man" (Dan. 8:15)

At the sepulcher of the risen Savior "the angel of the Lord descended from heaven" (Matt. 28:2) as "a young manâ?¦clothed in a long white garment" (Mark 16:5).

[Nevo]

I think volgadon's point is that the Hebrew and Greek words translated as "angel" in English bibles simply mean "messenger." Therefore, the term can refer to humans (e.g. 1 Sam. 11:4; 1 Kgs 19:2) as well as to supernatural beings.