Kirtland Egyptian Papers

[ttribe]

Again, I believe the preponderance of the evidence points to the fact that Joseph Smith "translated" the Book of Abraham in the exact same manner he employed in the production of the Book of Mormon and D&C 7.

Agreed.

[William Schryver]

There is indeed an "official stance" and it's stated on the church's "official" website. http://scriptures.lds.org/en/pgp/introduction

It's also printed in the "official" introduction to the "official" Pearl of Great Price in the "official" standard works of the church.

And, for what it's worth, I have no problem whatsoever with the statement describing the book as it appears in the PoGP. I think it is essentially accurate in all material respects.

[William Schryver]

John W:

"How convenient!"

I actually find it kind of humorous at times.

Of course, Iâ??m one of those people who is convinced, much as was Tevye, that God has a wicked sense of humor.

As things now stand, one can really only believe the Book of Abraham on the basis of one skill: oneâ??s capacity to recognize the voice of God. (â??My sheep hear my voice â?¦â?)

I'm all ears, Will. I've studied the BofA text both as a believer and as a skeptic.

Then you should know how much it resembles an authentic ancient text, and specifically one about the patriarch Abraham.

I may be a skeptic and a hardened evil apostate, but I am certainly not averse to enlightenment when such is available.

I think the â??proofâ? youâ??d require is quite beyond my capacity to provide.

I'm a traditionalist.

Youâ??re a traditional evil apostate.

[Mortal Man]

IMO, the content of the book speaks for itself and I happen to be of the opinion that the content is outstanding.

What then does the content of the book say for itself? Let's start at the beginning so we don't miss anything...

In the land of the Chaldeans...

The Chaldeans were a group of Aramean seminomadic tribes who lived along the Persian Gulf in the southern part of Mesopotamia. They did not establish their empire until the 7th century BC. The Chaldean (Neo-Babylonian) empire began with the reign of Nabopolassar in 626 BC and ended with the conquest of Babylon by Cyrus in 539 BC.

http://www.claudemariottini.com/blog/2006/...der-to-tim.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaldea

Dan Peterson assures us that Abraham lived around 2000 BC.

http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoi..._&hideNav=1

How could Abraham have lived in a place that did not exist until 1300 years later?

[Mortal Man]

Huh?

What kind of non sequitur is that comment?

When I post links to photographs, I naively assume that people will actually click on them and look at the pictures.

Nevertheless, here is the photo to save you the trouble.

http://www.foxnews.com/photoessay/0,4644,5645,00.html#6_0

Can you see what is carved into the white limestone casing behind the mischevious-looking archaeologist? Does it not look very much like Abraham sitting upon Pharaohâ??s throne, by the politeness of the king, with a crown upon his head, representing the Priesthood, as emblematical of the grand Presidency in Heaven; with the scepter of justice and judgment in his hand? The carving dates to ~2300 BC, which means it was likely made before Abraham was born.

[Mortal Man]

I've read the 7 volume set of History of the Church (did so on my mission).

And you didn't get busted? That certainly wasn't on the approved reading list in my mission.

[ttribe]

What then does the content of the book say for itself? Let's start at the beginning so we don't miss anything...

Clearly, you are exploiting my statement for a purpose it was not intended.

And you didn't get busted? That certainly wasn't on the approved reading list in my mission.

Why would I get "busted"? That's silly.

[John Williams]

John W:

I actually find it kind of humorous at times.

Of course, I'm one of those people who is convinced, much as was Tevye, that God has a wicked sense of humor.

As things now stand, one can really only believe the Book of Abraham on the basis of one skill: one's capacity to recognize the voice of God. ("My sheep hear my voice â?¦")

That seems to be where you and David agree: it's faith and spiritual experience that validates the scriptures, not evidence.

Then you should know how much it resembles an authentic ancient text, and specifically one about the patriarch Abraham.

I ran it past an expert in Abrahamic pseudepigrapha a couple of years ago, who didn't think it resembled an authentic text about Abraham.

I think the "proof" you'd require is quite beyond my capacity to provide.

There is never going to be "proof" of faith-based claims. Plausibility would go a long way with me.

You're a traditional evil apostate.

I try, but I fear I'm the diet Coke of evil most of the time.

[William Schryver]

When I post links to photographs, I naively assume that people will actually click on them and look at the pictures.

Nevertheless, here is the photo to save you the trouble.

http://www.foxnews.com/photoessay/0,4644,5645,00.html#6_0

Can you see what is carved into the white limestone casing behind the mischevious-looking archaeologist? Does it not look very much like Abraham sitting upon Pharaohâ??s throne, by the politeness of the king, with a crown upon his head, representing the Priesthood, as emblematical of the grand Presidency in Heaven; with the scepter of justice and judgment in his hand? The carving dates to ~2300 BC, which means it was likely made before Abraham was born.

I did look at the photo, silly!

I just don't understand why you are apparently entertaining the incorrect notion that any such scene would represent Abraham on the throne?

Have you been paying attention at all to the things David has been talking about?

It is a motif.

It is very ancient.

And it was used by cultures throughout the Near East to signify different things. Same with the motifs represented by the other facsimiles. Have you read the primer on this stuff: The Message of the Joseph Smith Papyri?

[William Schryver]

John W:

I ran it past an expert in Abrahamic pseudepigrapha a couple of years ago, who didn't think it resembled an authentic text about Abraham.

Yeah? Who? I know several â??expertsâ? in Abrahamic pseudepigrapha, and they disagree with your expert. And, frankly, I like them better than I do evil apostates.

I try, but I fear I'm the diet Coke of evil most of the time.

Maybe we should go to lunch. We could make each other laugh for an hour, and then we could go back to our online sniping. Kind of like that famous Christmas Day party that the English and German soldiers had in WWI.

[John Williams]

John W:

Yeah? Who? I know several "experts" in Abrahamic pseudepigrapha, and they disagree with your expert. And, frankly, I like them better than I do evil apostates.

If I told you, I'd have to shoot you. The guy I talked to, who has been quoted often for his positive statements about the Book of Mormon, said the BofA struck him as a rather late Protestant document (I didn't tell him the source of the document before I gave it to him). When I told him the source, he said I could use his statement, but as he didn't want to burn bridges with Mormons, he would rather not that I use his name. So, I haven't, which in the past translates to "I'm making this up." Whatever.

Maybe we should go to lunch. We could make each other laugh for an hour, and then we could go back to our online sniping. Kind of like that famous Christmas Day party that the English and German soldiers had in WWI.

Who's sniping? Not me. I'm sweet and lovable and totally harmless.

[Mortal Man]

I just don't understand why you are apparently entertaining the incorrect notion that any such scene would represent Abraham on the throne?

Why don't you pretend Joseph is here and ask him that question?

Have you been paying attention at all to the things David has been talking about?

He, you and everyone else in this thread have had my undivided attention.

Have you read the primer on this stuff: The Message of the Joseph Smith Papyri?

Yes

[volgadon]

What then does the content of the book say for itself? Let's start at the beginning so we don't miss anything...

The Chaldeans were a group of Aramean seminomadic tribes who lived along the Persian Gulf in the southern part of Mesopotamia. They did not establish their empire until the 7th century BC. The Chaldean (Neo-Babylonian) empire began with the reign of Nabopolassar in 626 BC and ended with the conquest of Babylon by Cyrus in 539 BC.

http://www.claudemariottini.com/blog/2006/...der-to-tim.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaldea

Dan Peterson assures us that Abraham lived around 2000 BC.

http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoi..._&hideNav=1

How could Abraham have lived in a place that did not exist until 1300 years later?

The city most certainly existed before then. Laying aside your assumption that the record is false, there are three possible explanations.

1- Abraham was born in a different city by the name of Ur. IIRC ur means city. Personally, I favour identifying it with Urkesh, especially due to its proximity to Harran.

2- Abraham refers to a suburb of Ur settled by a group of Chaldeens. This is not without precedent both historically and linguistically.

3- it is an anachronism by a later redactor to explain what city he is talking about.

[William Schryver]

I wrote:

I just don't understand why you are apparently entertaining the incorrect notion that any such scene would represent Abraham on the throne?

To which Mortal Man replied:

Why don't you pretend Joseph is here and ask him that question?

Indicating that you, again, apparently misunderstood what Iâ??m saying.

Let me rephrase: I just donâ??t understand why you are apparently entertaining the incorrect notion that ALL such scenes as this one â?? this somewhat common ancient Near Eastern motif â?? would have a relationship to Abraham.

Do you get what Iâ??m saying when I say that this is a â??motifâ? â?? with the accompanying implication that it was used by different cultures at different times and could mean different things to them, depending on context?

Did you read the thread David started a few weeks ago?

Itâ??s here: Were Biblical Kings Considered Gods?

[Anijen]

I am one who subscribes to Gee, Hauglid and William Schryvers view. It is also my opinion that there was a translation though much like the BoM. I believe there was a papyrus that had the BoA on it however has since been destroyed. I think when critics like Chris Smith or John W say "In my best Church Lady voice, "How convenient!"I am saddened and sometimes angry at their polemical and often pejorative comments. 85% is a large flippen percentile and I cant understand why people would say something like "well isn't that convenient." I for one wish we had the papyrus but it is evidently the Lords desire that we walk this one by faith. Perhaps if we had a few more apologist who would write about the treasures of the BoA like those who have on the BoM perhaps it might strengthen the weaker member. I also think if we would focus on the text and not the way we allegedly received it then we would have some great papers to read. Now it just seems like we have infighting and the critics just stand back and watch, laugh or mock.

In my studies I have found that the Book of Abraham is fascinating also in other works such as the Bible or other writings there is much to support the BoA. Some of the things I have found are;

>There are many non biblical Abraham traditions.

>There are many themes that are not found in the biblical account. Gee, Hauglid and Tvedtnes have listed twelve in Abraham 2 alone.

Some elements attested only in Abraham 2 but not in Genesis 11 and 12 appear regularly in non biblical text. For instance, the themes of Terah's idolatry, an angel rescuing Abraham and Abraham making converts in Haran are so well attested by a large cross section of traditions that it appears odd the biblical account does not include them.

In this vignette it also has the name Abraham and "the papyrus follows the pattern of the Book of the Dead."

Another vignette that mentions Abraham There are other Egyptian texts that also mention Abraham.

[John Williams]

I am one who subscribes to Gee, Hauglid and William Schryvers view. It is also my opinion that there was a translation though much like the BoM. I believe there was a papyrus that had the BoA on it however has since been destroyed. I think when critics like Chris Smith or John W say "In my best Church Lady voice, "How convenient!"I am saddened and sometimes angry at their polemical and often pejorative comments.

That was me, and I was kidding. Sheesh. And what polemical and pejorative comments are you talking about? Chris has been nothing but polite and, in my judgment, quite insightful. If you have a problem with my posting style, give me some specifics so I can be better.

85% is a large flippen percentile and I cant understand why people would say something like "well isn't that convenient."

The problem isn't just the missing text. It's that, if there is missing Abrahamic text that was surrounded by the extant documents, that would make it unique and unheard of. In my view, if you're going to postulate that the missing portions really had some Abrahamic text on them, you need to have some evidence for sucha one-of-a-kind document. I haven't seen any such evidence.

I for one wish we had the papyrus but it is evidently the Lords desire that we walk this one by faith. Perhaps if we had a few more apologist who would write about the treasures of the BoA like those who have on the BoM perhaps it might strengthen the weaker member. I also think if we would focus on the text and not the way we allegedly received it then we would have some great papers to read. Now it just seems like we have infighting and the critics just stand back and watch, laugh or mock.

No mocking or laughing going on here. If you'd like to discuss the text, go ahead.

In my studies I have found that the Book of Abraham is fascinating also in other works such as the Bible or other writings there is much to support the BoA. Some of the things I have found are;

>There are many non biblical Abraham traditions.

>There are many themes that are not found in the biblical account. Gee, Hauglid and Tvedtnes have listed twelve in Abraham 2 alone.

In this vignette it also has the name Abraham and "the papyrus follows the pattern of the Book of the Dead."

Another vignette that mentions Abraham There are other Egyptian texts that also mention Abraham.

I agree that it's fascinating, but I don't find that there is much to support the BofA. Just calling it like I see it.

[Anijen]

... Not me. I'm sweet and lovable and totally harmless.

...the serpent was more subtle... ....The serpent beguiled....

harmless to many but to even one weak person perhaps it was criticism that led someone out of the church.

Now I'm not saying that's your goal or even a hidden agenda but I do believe that those seemingly innocent jabs are not inviting to the spirit and perhaps can lead a lemming (weak member) away.

When we have an attitude that is not conducive to the Spirit then it will be impossible for Him to testify the truth of it unto us. And then we whine that I received no answer it is because our hearts had no disposition of receiving a answer.

I would imagine that many people use the absence of an answer as a negative answer.

One must hope and have the desire.

Anijen ~thinking out loud like always.

[Nyal]

...the serpent was more subtle... ....The serpent beguiled....

harmless to many but to even one weak person perhaps it was criticism that led someone out of the church.

Now I'm not saying that's your goal or even a hidden agenda but I do believe that those seemingly innocent jabs are not inviting to the spirit and perhaps can lead a lemming (weak member) away.

When we have an attitude that is not conducive to the Spirit then it will be impossible for Him to testify the truth of it unto us. And then we whine that I received no answer it is because our hearts had no disposition of receiving a answer.

I would imagine that many people use the absence of an answer as a negative answer.

One must hope and have the desire.

Anijen ~thinking out loud like always.

What use is "the spirit" in an apologist context? what use is insulting people? what use is calling people who leave the church weak lemmings?

[John Williams]

...the serpent was more subtle... ....The serpent beguiled....

harmless to many but to even one weak person perhaps it was criticism that led someone out of the church.

Now I'm not saying that's your goal or even a hidden agenda but I do believe that those seemingly innocent jabs are not inviting to the spirit and perhaps can lead a lemming (weak member) away.

When we have an attitude that is not conducive to the Spirit then it will be impossible for Him to testify the truth of it unto us. And then we whine that I received no answer it is because our hearts had no disposition of receiving a answer.

I would imagine that many people use the absence of an answer as a negative answer.

One must hope and have the desire.

Anijen ~thinking out loud like always.

Will and I have a pretty long history. He has skewered me and my beliefs, my integrity, and my motivations for a very long time. So much so that for a time, I thought he was about the worst person I had ever met. So, what you are seeing as jabs are me giving back to Will what he's giving to me. If he can call me an evil apostate, I can use the Church Lady voice with him.

And if anyone ever left the church because of me, I'd be shocked. And I'd wonder at their intelligence.

[dblagent007]

85% is a large flippen percentile

Would someone point me to the article or paper that lays out the argument that 85% of the papyrus is missing? Is this from Gee's paper where he says that 40+ feet of the Hor scroll is missing?

[Anijen]

...if you're going to postulate that the missing portions really had some Abrahamic text on them, you need to have some evidence for such a one-of-a-kind document. I haven't seen any such evidence.

Besides the Book of Abraham itself which is great evidence. One reason I wished more people would study the text instead of the alleged way it was received.

It is easy for someone to say prove it when they know the text no longer exists or don't believe it existed in the first place. I cannot prove it anyway and anecdotal means are mocked and laughed at. So the best I know of is to quote non biblical writings that would support what is written about Abraham that we cannot find in the bible but was written in the BoA. I know from experience the critic will simply push it aside and worse perhaps not even read at all.

From Abraham chapter 2 elements that are not in the bible but are in other writings;

> Famine,

> Haran died in the famine.

> Terah after repenting returned to his idols

> Believers are the seed of Abraham and are blessed through him.

> Abraham held the priesthood

> Abraham sought God earnestly.

> An Angel came to rescue Abraham.

> Abraham was familiar with Egyptian idols.

> Abraham was 62 years old not 75 as Genesis says.

> Abraham made converts in Haran.

> The Lord instructed Abraham to say Sarah was his sister.

Note these are from Traditions About The Early Life Of Abraham Tvedtnes, Hauglid and Gee pg 22 of the introduction.

Abraham knew and taught about astronomy. Abraham learned it from ancient records and from God. We can read that Abraham knew very much about astronomy but it is also backed up by many other writings, such as the book of Jasher, The apocalypse of Abraham, the Babylonian Talmud Shabboth, Clementiine recognitions and many Islamic writings.

"It is, to say the least, an interesting coincidence that the most thorough studies ever made of that limited class of documents to which the Joseph Smith Book of Breathings belongs conclude by calling attention to possible relationship between them and the sacrificial activities of one man among the ancients -Abraham" Hugh Nibley.

Abraham 1:26-27

26 Pharaoh, being a righteous man, established his kingdom and judged his people wisely and justly all his days, seeking earnestly to imitate that order established by the fathers in the first generations, in the days of the first patriarchal reign, even in the reign of Adam, and also of Noah, his father, who blessed him with the blessings of the earth, and with the blessings of wisdom, but cursed him as pertaining to the Priesthood.

27 Now, Pharaoh being of that lineage by which he could not have the right of Priesthood, notwithstanding the Pharaohs would fain claim it from Noah, through Ham, therefore my father was led away by their idolatry;

Nibley notes that "the nature of these idolatrous activities, which were impressive enough to convince his own father of their validity. He used the familiar motive of facsimile #1as an illustration of the rites and this picture was found on the same roll of papyrus as our Book of Breathings... "(see Abraham 1:5-14) The Egyptians began to imitate the priesthood order including sacrifices and the endowment and it was unauthorized and corrupt.

Ill write more but I need to fix dinner.

Anijen ~ thinking out loud

[Anijen]

What use is "the spirit" in an apologist context? what use is insulting people? what use is calling people who leave the church weak lemmings?

Meh. I was voicing my opinion you don't like it put me on ignore, it wont bother me one bit. and oh BTW this a a board to discuss opinions.

Try going back and reading some of my posts I m very rarely offensive or insulting, then read some of the critics posts and see who is more offensive.

Not to mention out of all my posts on this thread you haven't put forth a discussion toward me on the things I have written about Abraham but target the lame lemming word, I apologize to any if I offended them by calling them a lemming.

[Chris Smith]

Anijen,

I won't address your entire post at present, because it would be time-consuming and I have addressed some of it before, but you might be surprised to learn that in addition to the Bible and Josephus, which account for many of the purported parallels to extra-biblical Abrahamic legends, Joseph Smith also had access to the Book of Jasher (which you mentioned in your post as corroboration for the BoA). The book's publication was announced in the Times and Seasons in 1840. In September of 1842 the prophet cited the book in relationship to the Book of Abraham:

"But if we believe in present revelation, as published in the Times and Seasons last spring, Abraham, the prophet of the Lord, was laid upon the iron bedstead for slaughter; and the book of Jasher, which has not been disproved as a bad author, says he was cast into the fire of the Chaldeas."

You might also want to ask yourself, when making this kind of argument, why imaginative pseudepigraphal writings that postdate Abraham by thousands of years, like the Clementine Recognitions and Islamic legends, should be expected to contain any accurate information about the life of Abraham besides what they derived from the Bible itself.

Best,

-Chris

[Anijen]

Anijen,

I won't address your entire post at present, because it would be time-consuming and I have addressed some of it before, but you might be surprised to learn that in addition to the Bible and Josephus, which account for many of the purported parallels to extra-biblical Abraham legends, Joseph Smith also had access to the Book of Jasher (which you mentioned in your post as corroboration for the BoA). The book's publication was announced in the Times and Seasons in 1840. In September of 1842 the prophet cited the book in relationship to the Book of Abraham:

"But if we believe in present revelation, as published in the Times and Seasons last spring, Abraham, the prophet of the Lord, was laid upon the iron bedstead for slaughter; and the book of Jasher, which has not been disproved as a bad author, says he was cast into the fire of the Chaldeas."

You might also want to ask yourself, when making this kind of argument, why imaginative pseudepigraphal writings that postdate Abraham by thousands of years, like the Clementine Recognitions and Islamic legends, should be expected to contain any accurate information about the life of Abraham besides what they derived from the Bible itself.

Best,

-Chris

Chris thanks for your post. I sometimes really do feel bad when I write the things I do. I hate to delete them because I wrote them so I usually will just end up and apologizing for my remarks and go on appearing stupid which I am not but the medication I take clouds my thinking process and what used to be easy to bring to my mind in words I want to use is nothing but a blank, enough about my mental deficiencies.

No actually I'm not surprised about Joseph knowing about the Book of Jasher. I am however unconvinced that Joseph was a huge genius and used the resources available to him in libraries, universities, papers, etc. I think Joseph was a farm boy and what available to him or not he was educated by more than the works of men but by direct angelic tutoring. Did Joseph know about Philo of Alexandria? Did he read Pirqe de Rabbi Eliezer, the Targum of Jonathan, Midrash Rabbah, the Book of Noah or the Chronicles of Jerhmeel? I haven't even heard of these guys let alone read them and I live in an age of information at my fingertips. The only reason I know of these writings is from the well spent $50 bucks on Gee's, Hauglids and Tvedtnes book Traditions about the Early Life of Abraham, from which is where I am getting most of my quotes from that and writings of Nibley and FARMS and FAIR. So it was no surprise, where I was surprised is the actuall amount of corroborating writings that support the themes from the Book of Abraham that are not in the bible.

Once again I'll quote BRM in part "I am just a sliver in a forest of redwood trees..." compared to the Gee, Hauglid, Tvedtnes and even Schryver BoA knowledge. Sometimes even that sliver can be uncomfortable.

I am a firm believer in the CoJCoLDS but lets say its false I die and I go to heaven and get judged I sincerely doubt that I will face punishment from deriving spiritual upliftment from the BoA. Or lets say The CoJCoLDS is true (in which this is what I think) and I am judged I also do not worry about punishment because I was spiritually uplifted from the BoA and find out it was all JS imagination.

Anijen ~ who frequently thinks out loud to his own detriment.

[Anijen]

You might also want to ask yourself, when making this kind of argument, why imaginative pseudepigraphal writings that postdate Abraham by thousands of years, like the Clementine Recognitions and Islamic legends, should be expected to contain any accurate information about the life of Abraham besides what they derived from the Bible itself.

I doubt they were too "imaginative," if so they shared a similar imagination with writings from across Europe and as far as China. Because you emphasise the anachronistic and speculative portion doesn't take away the fact that 1, Abraham is mentioned and 2, mentioned in many differing ways that will support the Abraham that is from either Josephs "imagination or from the BoA inspired or not.

"any accurate information" I doubt much of it derived from the bible and that is part of my point. So what if they post date Abraham by a 1000 years, does that mean the 2800 years that predate Joseph is less impressive?

I am only trying to show parallels from nonbiblical writings in which I am just learning about that support many themes I read in the BoA.

So in other words, it cannot contain any accurate information because it postdates someone by 1000 years hmm I wonder what Rabbis, tribal historians etc would think of that conclusion?

Chris I cannot compete with you guys on the Book of Abraham's genesis, but I can give you my opinions on what is written and ancedotal or not it is sweet to my mind and soul.

Anijen ~TOL