Another Trinity thread . . . sorry

[bluebell]

being = God (singular)

Father = a person

Son = a person

Holy Spirit = a person

Ok, but that still doesn't make too much sense to me because i (a person) and the Father (a person) are obviously not the same thing. So using one term that can describe two very different things, without explaining the different definitions, doesn't really shed any light on what the term actually means as it's being applied.

Do you know what i mean?

[David Waltz]

>> Ok, but that still doesn't make too much sense to me because i (a person) and the Father (a person) are obviously not the same thing.>>

Me: But you are the same â??thingâ?â??i.e. human = one humanity = one human nature.

Grace and peace,

David

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

>>All very close definitions, the latter definition is the LDS doctrine (*assuming substance means purpose).>>

Me: â??Substanceâ? = nature or essence (i.e defining qualities). For instance, though there are billions of humans, we ALL share one humanity (our humanity is our nature or essenceâ??the qualities which make us human).

Moving to the Godhead, 3 persons share one Divinity (Divinity is the nature or essence of one who is God).

>>THe trinity makes absoultly no sense.>>

Me: I respectfully disagree.

Grace and peace,

David

I am glad you are here to reason, but humans sharing in the human family does not mean that there is only one human. what you have described is 3 Gods sharing in a certain uniqueness or species. THere is only one human or speciess of human but there are billions of them. So to put it in your terms I would agree that they have a certain quility about them that we do not share. but non the less there are still 3.

[coolrok7]

One God or many Gods?

Lots of good comments on both sides but both can't be right. Perhaps these following statements by Joseph Smith and Lorenzo Snow, 1st and 3rd prophets of the Mormon Church, are the essence of the disagreement on the nature of God or Gods. It boils down to who is right or who is wrong:

â??As man now is, God once was; As God now is, man may be.â? â??- Lorenzo Snow

God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! . . .I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see. . . .It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God, and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; and I will show it from the Bible. . . .My Father worked out his kingdom. . .and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom, I shall present it to My Father, so that He may obtain kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt him in glory. He will then take a higher exaltation, and I will take His place, and thereby become exalted myself. So that Jesus treads in the tracks of his Father, and inherits what God did before; and God is thus glorified and exalted in the salvation and exaltation of all his children. . . .I will preach on the plurality of Gods. . . .I wish to declare I have always and in all congregations when I have preached on the subject of the Deity, it has been the plurality of Gods. It has been preached by the Elders for fifteen years. I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and that the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit; and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods. If this is in accordance with the New Testament, lo and behold! we have, three Gods anyhow; and they are plural; and who can contradict it?. . .The head God organized the heavens and the earth. I defy all the world to refute me. In the beginning the heads of the Gods organized the heavens and the earth. . . .The heads of the Gods appointed one God for us; and when you take [that] view of the subject, it sets one free to see all the beauty, holiness and perfection of the Gods. All I want is to get the simple, naked truth, and the whole truth. Many men say there is one God; the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost is only one God! I say that is a strange God anyhowâ??three in one, and one in three! It is a curious organization. . . .All are to be crammed into one God, according to sectarianism. It would make the biggest God in all the world. He would be a wonderfully big Godâ??he would be a giant or a monster. (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 345, 346, 370, 372)

These verses I think go to the core of the discussion:

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. (Genesis 1:1)

Then God said, â??Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.â? So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. Then God blessed them, and God said to them, â??Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.â? (Genesis 1:26-28)

â??You are My witnesses,â? says the LORD, â??And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me. I, even I, am the LORD, And besides Me there is no savior. I have declared and saved, I have proclaimed, And there was no foreign god among you; Therefore you are My witnesses,â? Says the LORD, â??that I am God. (Isaiah 43:10-12)

Jesus answered, . . .â??HEAR, O ISRAEL! THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORDâ? (Mark 12:29)

And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, â??All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age. (Matthew 28:18-20)

I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was. (John 17:4-5)

My take on the issue (there is of course more to it than this):

The Bible teaches that God is in His nature an eternally existent (Divine) spiritual being, even before the beginning of creation. God has revealed Himself to the prophets and apostles (recorded in Scripture) to be the one True God (monotheism, Deuteronomy 6:4), as opposed to the false gods of the pagan nations who were Israelâ??s enemies (polytheism- belief in a plurality of gods; those who are not God by nature). In the New Testament God is further revealed as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (the Godhead)- not the same person (Matthew 28:19).

I believe Isaiah 43:10 along with the above mentioned verse limits the Divine nature only to God (state of being God) and is ascribed to no one else. When the Hebrew term Elohim and the Greek term Theos (God, god, gods) is translated into English, the meaning of the term is derived from the context that its placed in. The term Elohim, gods (plural), is used for man (or other created beings) usually in a limited, sometimes derogatory way (see Psalm 82:6). Whenever the true God is being identified the term Elohim (which has a plural ending and is not His name) is translated in the singular, God.

[saemo]

Ok, but that still doesn't make too much sense to me because i (a person) and the Father (a person) are obviously not the same thing.

Nor could you be as your nature is human. God's nature is God.

So using one term that can describe two very different things, without explaining the different definitions, doesn't really shed any light on what the term actually means as it's being applied.

Do you know what i mean?

person = distinct individual

being = Each of the Persons of the Trinity is that supreme reality, namely, the divine substance, essence or nature: God.

[bluebell]

person = distinct individual

being = Each of the Persons of the Trinity is that supreme reality, namely, the divine substance, essence or nature: God.

Alright, so using your definitions here, Trinitarians believe that God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost are three separate persons who all share the same nature, correct?

That makes sense to me, but it does so because LDS believe the exact same thing. That brings up some obvious red flags. I doesn't seem like LDS theology and Trinitarianism should agree here, so what am i not getting?

[Brenda]

Well, darn it, I'm afraid to write what I'm feeling right now. After all these earnest attempts to explain, I still don't understand the trinitarian concept of God. If someone were to ask me what it is, I'd just have to throw up my hands. And I'm trying so hard . . .

I was raised with a clear, simple mental picture of God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost. This is like trying to learn French, explained in Russian.

Do all of you really understand who and what God is? I mean your doctrine--is it clear to you, and I'm just too dense or simple-minded to get it? If he were to appear before you now, what would he look like? Please, I'm asking this sincerely. All these fine-lined distinctions between terms---persons, individuals, beings, essenses, natures, substance. "God's nature is God"---huh? I'm completely confused, and I don't understand any better now than I did yesterday.

When you teach your little children who God is, and what he is, what do you tell them? Maybe if I could sit in on one of your children's Sunday School classes, I'd get a grasp of what you're saying.

[Lance in TX]

Do all of you really understand who and what God is? I mean your doctrine--is it clear to you, and I'm just too dense or simple-minded to get it? If he were to appear before you now, what would he look like? Please, I'm asking this sincerely. All these fine-lined distinctions between terms---persons, individuals, beings, essenses, natures, substance. "God's nature is God"---huh? I'm completely confused, and I don't understand any better now than I did yesterday.

Brenda, This is one of the many reasons I left the Catholic and Episcopal Churches. I could not get a firm understanding of the Trinity as they taught it. It always seemed like the definition changed depending on who you talked to and no one could give a CLEAR description of it. It was always "the mystery of God". That did not seem like how God would be. God's "house" is a "house" of order!

When my gf at the time (now my Sealed wife) introduced me to the LDS Church it all made sense. I had a CLEAR definition and understanding. It was soooooooooo comforting. The "mystery of God" changed from not being able to understand God and how he related to His children (US) to the wonderful understanding of how much He loves us because He has gone through what we are going through and He wants us to return to Him!

[Brenda]

Brenda, This is one of the many reasons I left the Catholic and Episcopal Churches. I could not get a firm understanding of the Trinity as they taught it. It always seemed like the definition changed depending on who you talked to and no one could give a CLEAR description of it. It was always "the mystery of God". That did not seem like how God would be. God's "house" is a "house" of order!

When my gf at the time (now my Sealed wife) introduced me to the LDS Church it all made sense. I had a CLEAR definition and understanding. It was soooooooooo comforting. The "mystery of God" changed from not being able to understand God and how he related to His children (US) to the wonderful understanding of how much He loves us because He has gone through what we are going through and He wants us to return to Him!

Thanks, Lance, but I have to believe that other Christians also believe God loves them and wants them to return to him. Their concept of God is worthy of our effort to try to understand it. But you speak from experience, and I don't.

There definately is a language barrier. And it goes both ways. For example, "sealed wife" probably sounds weird to non-LDS.

Thanks again.

[Lance in TX]

Thanks, Lance, but I have to believe that other Christians also believe God loves them and wants them to return to him. Their concept of God is worthy of our effort to try to understand it. But you speak from experience, and I don't.

There definately is a language barrier. And it goes both ways. For example, "sealed wife" probably sounds weird to non-LDS.

Thanks again.

Brenda, I agree that other Christians believe God loves them and wants to see them again! At least I hope they do. If they do not feel that way, then they need to find out why they do not feel that way. That is how I felt because I could not understand how He related to us. It was just not making sense.

And yes, there is a language barrier. I am glad there are places like this where people from other faiths can discuss things in a civil way and try to understand each other.

[Mudcat]

Alright, i think i understand what you mean.

Oh no! you've got me worried Bluebell. I think you are the first person to ever understand an analogy I have presented. I am actually pretty shocked. Either I am getting better at it... or you should seek counseling immediately.

However, i think it would really help if you explained the LDS concept of God using this 'three atom' analogy so i could see exactly where, in a trinitarians view, the LDS idea of Godhead and the Trinitarian God differ.

Well, I think that is where some of the friction between the concepts is. I don't think I can make my analogy fit. But I'll tell you what I see as problems in trying to make a crossover on it and maybe that will help. If we take the Father for example, my understanding is that LDS believe the Father is God and he is just as much God independently of Christ and the Holy Spirit, as he is God with them in a unified purpose. Correct me if I am wrong, but I am under the impression that the LDS focal point of worship is the Father. I would imagine that LDS think Christ is at the least, independently a god, as in fully exalted, but I don't know if you believe Christ is a God and the Holy Spirit is another matter altogether, I think in part because he doesn't have a body among other things.

Anyways.... to relate to the analogy

I think in the LDS Godhead. The Father would be better percieved as a complete water molecule, Christ might be a complete water molecule... I dunno about the HS though, probably not... but at the least he would be something akin to a water molecule, or a water molecule in the making.

The main differences are in how closely/loosely these three are affiliated.

Does that make sense? Sometimes, for me anyway, the easiest way to understand something new is to show how it's different from something that is already understood.

I agree with you completely. Feel free to give me your take on the water analogy and how it might fit better than I am perceiving it.

Finding an 'apples to apples' model that is both understandable and mutually reflective of the differences in the two concepts would be really helpful. There are so many difficulties in speaking in actuals.... for example, I am wondering if my capitalization or lack thereof, fit where it was supposed to when I wrote God or god.

[saemo]

When you teach your little children who God is, and what he is, what do you tell them? Maybe if I could sit in on one of your children's Sunday School classes, I'd get a grasp of what you're saying.

Three Candles

Light three candles. Notice that there are three separate flames. Now, with help from another set of hands, tilt the tops of the candles so that the flames come together as one flame. Together they are one flame, yet three separate flames.

Using Braids to Teach the Trinity

If you have girls with long hair, this will be simple. If you don't have girls or all your children have short hair, get three piece of yarn, string, or rope and knot them together at one end or tie them to the back of a chair to make your braid.

Let your children watch you make a simple braid from three sections of hair or from the three strands that you knotted together.

As you braid, ask them how many sections or strands it takes to make a braid. After they answer three, ask them how many braids you have when you are finished. After they answer one, you can show them how the braid is like the Trinity. The braid is made of three parts but there is only one braid.

After they understand how three separate pieces are united to make one braid, ask one of the children to pull out one of the strands from the top of the braid (for the sake of this example, it is good to make the braid rather loose so pulling a strand out is easily done). Once a strand has been pulled out, ask the children if it is still a braid. Explain to them that if you take out one part you no longer have a braid.

Alternately, show them what happens if you make a braid of only two strands of hair. Explain to them that a braid doesn't look right or hold together if it doesn't have all three parts.

Ask them how this is like God. Explain to them that if we ignore or deny one person in the Trinity it is like taking out a strand of the braid. When we deny a person of the Trinity, we no longer believe in God because one or two parts of the Trinity by themselves are not completely God.

Explaining Why We Should Believe the Trinity

If you want to really impress upon your children the importance of understanding the Trinity, make another braid from weak threads. Give the children a single thread and ask them to pull it until it breaks. Now take the braid made from the weak threads and have each child attempt to break it. It may break, but the child will realize that three strands braided together are much stronger than a single strand.

Explain to your children that if you understand and believe the Trinity, your faith will be stronger just like the braid with all three parts because you rely on God completely. If you believe only part of the Trinity, your faith is weaker because you don't have all the parts of God in your heart, helping you to grow.

[Mudcat]

Brenda, This is one of the many reasons I left the Catholic and Episcopal Churches. I could not get a firm understanding of the Trinity as they taught it. It always seemed like the definition changed depending on who you talked to and no one could give a CLEAR description of it. It was always "the mystery of God". That did not seem like how God would be. God's "house" is a "house" of order!

When my gf at the time (now my Sealed wife) introduced me to the LDS Church it all made sense. I had a CLEAR definition and understanding. It was soooooooooo comforting. The "mystery of God" changed from not being able to understand God and how he related to His children (US) to the wonderful understanding of how much He loves us because He has gone through what we are going through and He wants us to return to Him!

Lance,

Don't mean to butt in, but you have a valid point. I am not LDS, but I would say that one of the more attractive features of the faith is a very simple, understandable and comprehensible understanding of how these three beings relate.

However, the system in its totality is IMO less understandable to me. Its a system that easily explains what Trinitarians view as an unfathomably complex nature of God, but creates unfathomable issues that are problematic, as well.

Mudcat

[Brenda]

Three Candles

Light three candles. Notice that there are three separate flames. Now, with help from another set of hands, tilt the tops of the candles so that the flames come together as one flame. Together they are one flame, yet three separate flames.

Using Braids to Teach the Trinity

If you have girls with long hair, this will be simple. If you don't have girls or all your children have short hair, get three piece of yarn, string, or rope and knot them together at one end or tie them to the back of a chair to make your braid.

Let your children watch you make a simple braid from three sections of hair or from the three strands that you knotted together.

As you braid, ask them how many sections or strands it takes to make a braid. After they answer three, ask them how many braids you have when you are finished. After they answer one, you can show them how the braid is like the Trinity. The braid is made of three parts but there is only one braid.

After they understand how three separate pieces are united to make one braid, ask one of the children to pull out one of the strands from the top of the braid (for the sake of this example, it is good to make the braid rather loose so pulling a strand out is easily done). Once a strand has been pulled out, ask the children if it is still a braid. Explain to them that if you take out one part you no longer have a braid.

Alternately, show them what happens if you make a braid of only two strands of hair. Explain to them that a braid doesn't look right or hold together if it doesn't have all three parts.

Ask them how this is like God. Explain to them that if we ignore or deny one person in the Trinity it is like taking out a strand of the braid. When we deny a person of the Trinity, we no longer believe in God because one or two parts of the Trinity by themselves are not completely God.

Explaining Why We Should Believe the Trinity

If you want to really impress upon your children the importance of understanding the Trinity, make another braid from weak threads. Give the children a single thread and ask them to pull it until it breaks. Now take the braid made from the weak threads and have each child attempt to break it. It may break, but the child will realize that three strands braided together are much stronger than a single strand.

Explain to your children that if you understand and believe the Trinity, your faith will be stronger just like the braid with all three parts because you rely on God completely. If you believe only part of the Trinity, your faith is weaker because you don't have all the parts of God in your heart, helping you to grow.

Yes, I see. Now if your son, or grandson, asked you what God looks like, what do you say? Don't you need to go beyond a lock of hair?

Added note: I'm sorry Mudcat. I realize you spent some time on your post, and I neglected to thank you. I do appreciate it.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Three Candles

Light three candles. Notice that there are three separate flames. Now, with help from another set of hands, tilt the tops of the candles so that the flames come together as one flame. Together they are one flame, yet three separate flames.

Using Braids to Teach the Trinity

If you have girls with long hair, this will be simple. If you don't have girls or all your children have short hair, get three piece of yarn, string, or rope and knot them together at one end or tie them to the back of a chair to make your braid.

Let your children watch you make a simple braid from three sections of hair or from the three strands that you knotted together.

As you braid, ask them how many sections or strands it takes to make a braid. After they answer three, ask them how many braids you have when you are finished. After they answer one, you can show them how the braid is like the Trinity. The braid is made of three parts but there is only one braid.

After they understand how three separate pieces are united to make one braid, ask one of the children to pull out one of the strands from the top of the braid (for the sake of this example, it is good to make the braid rather loose so pulling a strand out is easily done). Once a strand has been pulled out, ask the children if it is still a braid. Explain to them that if you take out one part you no longer have a braid.

Alternately, show them what happens if you make a braid of only two strands of hair. Explain to them that a braid doesn't look right or hold together if it doesn't have all three parts.

Ask them how this is like God. Explain to them that if we ignore or deny one person in the Trinity it is like taking out a strand of the braid. When we deny a person of the Trinity, we no longer believe in God because one or two parts of the Trinity by themselves are not completely God.

Explaining Why We Should Believe the Trinity

If you want to really impress upon your children the importance of understanding the Trinity, make another braid from weak threads. Give the children a single thread and ask them to pull it until it breaks. Now take the braid made from the weak threads and have each child attempt to break it. It may break, but the child will realize that three strands braided together are much stronger than a single strand.

Explain to your children that if you understand and believe the Trinity, your faith will be stronger just like the braid with all three parts because you rely on God completely. If you believe only part of the Trinity, your faith is weaker because you don't have all the parts of God in your heart, helping you to grow.

Was going to say something. However I am glad that you have tried to explain your theory on the trinity. I can appreciate and respect your view. I do however find all of these examples lacking.

[Lance in TX]

Lance,

Don't mean to butt in, but you have a valid point. I am not LDS, but I would say that one of the more attractive features of the faith is a very simple, understandable and comprehensible understanding of how these three beings relate.

However, the system in its totality is IMO less understandable to me. Its a system that easily explains what Trinitarians view as an unfathomably complex nature of God, but creates unfathomable issues that are problematic, as well.

Mudcat

Mudcat,

Can you explain some of the "unfathomable issue that are problematic"? Maybe I can explain some of them.

I would like to understand where you come from and since I am a convert I might be able to explain things a little more.

[saemo]

Yes, I see. Now if your son, or grandson, asked you what God looks like, what do you say? Don't you need to go beyond a lock of hair?

Added note: I'm sorry Mudcat. I realize you spent some time on your post, and I neglected to thank you. I do appreciate it.

The Father is Spirit. The Son can be described. The Holy Spirit, well, is Spirit. God is God. I worry what He looks like as much as I worry about if He slept well last night, if at all. It is, to me, honestly a worry that only comes from thinking God needs to look like you (or your husband).

[Brenda]

The Father is Spirit. The Son can be described. The Holy Spirit, well, is Spirit. God is God. I worry what He looks like as much as I worry about if He slept well last night, if at all. It is, to me, honestly a worry that only comes from thinking God needs to look like you (or your husband).

So what does spirit mean to you? How do you define it, or describe it? And why do you call God, "The Father"? Is he really your father, or do you see him as your creator? Since you say that the Son can be described, does that mean you believe he has a body?

Thanks. And thanks for talking in English. Oops, I'm not trying to be disrespectful, it's just that I can understand what you're saying! Well, except for the 'God is God' part.

[Mudcat]

Mudcat,

Can you explain some of the "unfathomable issue that are problematic"? Maybe I can explain some of them.

I would like to understand where you come from and since I am a convert I might be able to explain things a little more.

Hey Lance,

Thanks for the response.

The LDS faith seems to set up an infinite regression of Gods. The Father wasn't the actual first... there was one before him, and so on, and so on. There is no first God... its infinitely regressive. There was no first God.

These Gods can organize matter, but can't create matter. Matter is the absolute in the equation, not God. The assumption being that matter always existed and was uncreated.

[saemo]

So what does spirit mean to you? How do you define it, or describe it?

Immaterial. Incomposite.

And why do you call God, "The Father"? Is he really your father, or do you see him as your creator?

He is Creator and Father. We call Him Father because:

- He is our Creator, the origin of everything

- of His goodness and loving care for His children

- He is eternally Father in relationship to the Son

Since you say that the Son can be described, does that mean you believe he has a body?

Yes.

Thanks. And thanks for talking in English. Oops, I'm not trying to be disrespectful, it's just that I can understand what you're saying! Well, except for the 'God is God' part.

no problem

[mysteryman]

Yes, and if Mola can not understand God - The Creator of all things, The One who has existed since before time, the One who sustains all things - well, then if Mola can't understand Him then He just can't be. Let's boil God down into little snippets that completely dishonor Him so that Mola can understand. I mean, it's not as if the Trinitarian God deserves the majesty He has - let's make Him into something we all can understand. It's only God, after all.But not one biblical scripture.

It is easy to understand why Mola doesn't understand it. Our finite minds unfortuanately have ability to think rationally and logically. We understand things that make sense. Since the trinity concept is complete bogus nonsense, of course we don't understand it.

[Hoops22]

Our finite minds

And this obviously true statement has no bearing? Talk about thinking rationally.

We understand things that make sense.

Well, some do and some don't. You and mola apparently don't.

Since the trinity concept is complete bogus nonsense, of course we don't understand it.

Sind the LDS view of God demeans the very God that created you, I don't understand it either.

[Tanyan]

The LDS understanding of GOD Demeans him , pray tell.

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan - LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[saemo]

Alright, so using your definitions here, Trinitarians believe that God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost are three separate persons who all share the same nature, correct?

That makes sense to me, but it does so because LDS believe the exact same thing. That brings up some obvious red flags. I doesn't seem like LDS theology and Trinitarianism should agree here, so what am i not getting?

The Three Persons of the Holy Trinity are One God, united by the divine nature, which is GOD.

The LDS Godhead is united in purpose, not nature. They are three Gods, not One God.

We think of God first, as One. One God only. Then begin the description of God's nature, as He has Revealed to us. The Father, is the first that is Revealed. The Father Reveals the Son. The Father and the Son Reveal the Holy Spirit. Three Persons are Revealed, as One God.

This is the Revelation from God about God. We accept what God has revealed, as Truth. Do we understand how Three are One? This, God has not Revealed. Thus we us the term "the mystery of the Trinity".

[Tanyan]

From my lights LDS Doctrine is an Anchient Monarch/Eastern/Economic/Social Godhead-Trinity.

All seerate members haveing the True GOD DNA.

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan - LDS JEDI KNIGHT.