Another Trinity thread . . . sorry

[Brenda]

The triune God is one God in three distinct persons. The persons are not separate Gods, nor is there only one Person wearing three different "masks". If God were to appear in front of me, I would likely see Christ, who is the image of the invisible God. Who knows what other glories I would see? When the Son was incarnate, God was still everywhere, omnipresent, but present in a special way in Christ. The Father and the Spirit were not incarnate in Jesus Christ.

There, no metaphors, short and sweet. Of course, the definition is one thing; understanding it is quite another, and metaphors may be required (as is the willingness to think outside one's theological boxes for the sake of understanding).

Take care, everyone

Best answer so far. Thanks rhino.

[Lance in TX]

Hey Lance,

Thanks for the response.

The LDS faith seems to set up an infinite regression of Gods. The Father wasn't the actual first... there was one before him, and so on, and so on. There is no first God... its infinitely regressive. There was no first God.

These Gods can organize matter, but can't create matter. Matter is the absolute in the equation, not God. The assumption being that matter always existed and was uncreated.

Mudcat,

Sorry for taking so long to get back to you.. Been BUSY!!

It is true that we believe that God was once like man and that He progressed to become God. That is ok with us. Why? Because it does not matter really where He was before He became God for us. He created us. He gave us life. He is who we are to be thankful to. That is the important thing to me at least.

So, let me ask you a question. You believe that God created all matter and that He has always been, right? What was there before He created the matter of this universe? Was He just there with nothing? But if nothing existed then how could He exist?

See.. It does not make sense. I guess you could say, it does not really matter how He could exist before anything existed... That is how I feel about God before He became God. It does not really matter to me. He is my creator.

I hope this explains my understanding and thinking a little. Don't know if it makes sense to you, but that is how I think.

Just curious.. Do you believe in the Big Bang theory?

[Mudcat]

Mudcat,

Sorry for taking so long to get back to you.. Been BUSY!!

No worries Lance.

It is true that we believe that God was once like man and that He progressed to become God. That is ok with us. Why? Because it does not matter really where He was before He became God for us. He created us. He gave us life. He is who we are to be thankful to. That is the important thing to me at least.

I noticed your usage of the word "like".... it seemed comparative, but not explicit. Do you believe your Heavenly Father was man? If so, is he still a man in some respect?

So, let me ask you a question. You believe that God created all matter and that He has always been, right?

Yes.

What was there before He created the matter of this universe?

I don't know.

Was He just there with nothing?

I don't know that either.

But if nothing existed then how could He exist?

The underlying implication of your question, is that God needed something other than himself to exist. If that were the case, then God would not be omnipotent. God would be dependent on whatever that something was that he needed to exist. If that were the case, then that something he needed to exist would be God instead of him.

I don't believe God is dependent on anything. Do you?

See.. It does not make sense. I guess you could say, it does not really matter how He could exist before anything existed... That is how I feel about God before He became God. It does not really matter to me. He is my creator.

I don't know that it doesn't make sense, Lance. We just have different perceptions. At some point the question of "Where did God come from?" is addressed in any Christ centered faith. The Evangelical perspective that he was, is and always will be is different from your own. The LDS perspective, IMO, puts that monkey on the back of an infinite number of previous men who became God, but gives no attempt to answer it.

I hope this explains my understanding and thinking a little. Don't know if it makes sense to you, but that is how I think.

Sure it does. I understand what you are saying though it doesn't make sense to me but (and in order to stay on topic) I suppose that may be how LDS feel about the Trinity.

Just curious.. Do you believe in the Big Bang theory?

No I don't believe in it. I think its much more plausible than the Steady State theory. I am interested in some the quantum stuff out there though. I have no real clue as to how God has made this universe, but I do enjoy looking at others ideas about it.

Since you asked me a science related question, I'll ping you with one.

Here it is... If we assume that matter can neither be created nor destroyed... and thus infinite in duration. Is matter infinite in quantity?

[Lance in TX]

I noticed your usage of the word "like".... it seemed comparative, but not explicit. Do you believe your Heavenly Father was man? If so, is he still a man in some respect?

I believe at one time he was man. Is he still a man in some respect... Hmm.. I think he has some aspects of man. He looks like man (but in a perfected body). He has feelings and loves us. We are His children. But He does not become sick, cannot be hurt, and is perfect. So in that respect He is not man anymore. He wants us to become like Him, but we will never replace Him. He will always be our Father and our Creator. We will always look up to Him and thank Him for all He has done for us.

The underlying implication of your question, is that God needed something other than himself to exist. If that were the case, then God would not be omnipotent.

I do not believe that God once being man means he is not omnipotent.

According to Merriam Webster:

Main Entry: om

[Mudcat]

God does have absolute power over all. He can distroy us all with one word, or bless us all with one word. He is unlimited in power and importance and mighty.

Lance, thanks for the well responded answers. I suppose you and I might have some different ideas on matter, that would be worth exploring on another thread sometime.

Anyways... I suppose my last thought in regards to your statement is this. Do you believe God has any power over whatever force created him? By that I mean is the power that created him in some way subordinate to God? ..... IOW, do you believe our creator is over his own creator?

[Lance in TX]

Lance, thanks for the well responded answers. I suppose you and I might have some different ideas on matter, that would be worth exploring on another thread sometime.

That would be interesting and be fun!

Anyways... I suppose my last thought in regards to your statement is this. Do you believe God has any power over whatever force created him? By that I mean is the power that created him in some way subordinate to God? ..... IOW, do you believe our creator is over his own creator?

That is a good question. This next statement is "The Gospel according to Lance" and is NOT LDS Doctrine (there is no doctrine about this, at least none that I have ever seen) so please take it as MY statements and NOT the Church.

I believe once we are with God in the Celestial Kingdom we will have all of the powers/knowledge that God has, BUT we will NEVER use them against Him. We will always be subordinate to God because He is our Father and we love Him for being our Father and our Creator. Do you understand what I am trying to say?

[Tanyan]

God has never revealed He has DNA. This is a WAG.

Ok, hows about that All 3 "Persons" are in possession of the same True GOD Substance, Better ?.

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[Tanyan]

Biblical Trinity vrs the Catholic Trinity [Along with a response to the Catholic/Jehovah Witness understanding of the Trinity] by non LDS Christians - http://www.bible.ca/trinity/trinity-catholic-nicene.htm

In His Debt/Grace, Tanayn - LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[AtticusFinch]

I had forgotten that the Book of Mormon AND D&C clearly state the Doctrine of the Trinity....that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are ONE God.

Thank you for reminding me

[Brenda]

I had forgotten that the Book of Mormon AND D&C clearly state the Doctrine of the Trinity....that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are ONE God.

Exactly. One god. We worship one god. For they all represent each other in all they do and say. Just as I and my husband represent one in purpose (or at least we tried) when raising our children. We were united. So when we worship Christ, we are worshiping the Father, because Christ said, in effect, if you've seen me, you've seen him. And when my children honor their dad, they are also honoring me.

Side note: I'm seeing more and more, that the family unit is a perfect example of many eternal patterns.

[AtticusFinch]

Exactly. One god. We worship one god. For they all represent each other in all they do and say. Just as I and my husband represent one in purpose (or at least we tried) when raising our children. We were united. So when we worship Christ, we are worshiping the Father, because Christ said, in effect, if you've seen me, you've seen him. And when my children honor their dad, they are also honoring me.

Response: Nice tap dance....but that is NOT what the Scriptures in the Book of Mormon say...they name ALL THREE and then say "ONE GOD"

Trinity.

But I admire your dancing skills. Did you teach yourself or take a class at Arthur Murray?

Me, I would like Julianne Hough to teach me....she could make me become LDS any day

[Brenda]

Exactly. One god. We worship one god. For they all represent each other in all they do and say. Just as I and my husband represent one in purpose (or at least we tried) when raising our children. We were united. So when we worship Christ, we are worshiping the Father, because Christ said, in effect, if you've seen me, you've seen him. And when my children honor their dad, they are also honoring me.

Response: Nice tap dance....but that is NOT what the Scriptures in the Book of Mormon say...they name ALL THREE and then say "ONE GOD"

Trinity.

But I admire your dancing skills. Did you teach yourself or take a class at Arthur Murray?

Me, I would like Julianne Hough to teach me....she could make me become LDS any day

Not amused. You're obviously set in your opinion, so I'll move on.

[AtticusFinch]

need a sense of humor? I hear Deseret Book store has em on sale this week......

[Brenda]

need a sense of humor? I hear Deseret Book store has em on sale this week......

I have a sense of humor, when something is funny .....

[AtticusFinch]

in fact...I hear they are 2 for 1

[Brenda]

The triune God is one God in three distinct persons. The persons are not separate Gods, nor is there only one Person wearing three different "masks". If God were to appear in front of me, I would likely see Christ, who is the image of the invisible God. Who knows what other glories I would see? When the Son was incarnate, God was still everywhere, omnipresent, but present in a special way in Christ. The Father and the Spirit were not incarnate in Jesus Christ.

In revisiting this post, I can see some common threads in the Christian triune God and the LDS Godhead. God, as you describe him, sounds like how we describe the Holy Ghost, who is a spirit. God, the Father, actually rarely visits or speaks in the scriptures. It's almost always Christ representing him. So it's easy to assume God is invisible.

Side note: I had to look up the definition of incarnate to make sure I knew what it meant. You see, the LDS seldom, if ever, use the word. And I just discovered why. It's not in the Bible. Of course there are plenty of words that we use that aren't in the Bible, so please don't think I'm insinuating anything.

[rhinomelon]

In revisiting this post, I can see some common threads in the Christian triune God and the LDS Godhead. God, as you describe him, sounds like how we describe the Holy Ghost, who is a spirit. God, the Father, actually rarely visits or speaks in the scriptures. It's almost always Christ representing him. So it's easy to assume God is invisible.

I think Christianity assumes God is invisible because the Bible says He's invisible on several occasions, most notably through the mouths of several apostles. And I think mainstream Christianity would give the Father a much larger role than LDS do in the Bible, simply because we do not equate Christ with Jehovah and the Father with Elohim. The Father is the primary figure in the Old Testament for mainstream Christianity.

Side note: I had to look up the definition of incarnate to make sure I knew what it meant. You see, the LDS seldom, if ever, use the word. And I just discovered why. It's not in the Bible. Of course there are plenty of words that we use that aren't in the Bible, so please don't think I'm insinuating anything.

"Incarnation" is from the Latin, so it wouldn't be in the Bible in that form. The word means what John means in the first chapter of his gospel, in which he writes, "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us". The phrase shows up elsewhere in the NT as well. I think it doesn't show up in LDS thought much because the incarnation (God becoming flesh) is not the unique, wondrous miracle for LDS as it is for mainstream Christianity. After all, for LDS becoming flesh is a natural part of the development of the God-man species. For mainstream Christianity, God did not have to become flesh at all, but chose to do so out of sacrificial love.

Take care, everyone

[Brenda]

I think Christianity assumes God is invisible because the Bible says He's invisible on several occasions, most notably through the mouths of several apostles. And I think mainstream Christianity would give the Father a much larger role than LDS do in the Bible, simply because we do not equate Christ with Jehovah and the Father with Elohim. The Father is the primary figure in the Old Testament for mainstream Christianity.

I can see that. We just see the usage of invisible meaning he is rarely seen. I can see how you get your belief. I hope you can see how I get mine.

I can also see how Joseph Smith's vision could be very annoying to you.

[rhinomelon]

Actually, I'm perfectly comfortable with the idea of Smith's vision. It's the conclusions that he drew from it that I disagree with. God can appear in many different forms and in many different ways. This is also plain from scripture. The problem is when people take that vision and try to say, "That's definitely what God is, totally and completely."

Take care

[Brenda]

Actually, I'm perfectly comfortable with the idea of Smith's vision. It's the conclusions that he drew from it that I disagree with. God can appear in many different forms and in many different ways. This is also plain from scripture. The problem is when people take that vision and try to say, "That's definitely what God is, totally and completely."

Take care

Well, yes, and Joseph does draw that conclusion. But when two embodied beings appear in front of you, it's understandable to assume they are, in fact, two embodied beings.

[blueadept]

Well, yes, and Joseph does draw that conclusion. But when two embodied beings appear in front of you, it's understandable to assume they are, in fact, two embodied beings.

One of the fundamental reasons I prefer in not having the 1st Vision displayed in our dual-faith household. You either agree with the portrait (2 embodied separate beings) or you don't.

I actually don't have issues with any other pieces of LDS art.