B. H. Roberts and the Book of Mormon

[Mortal Man]

A typical response to issues posted on this board is, "this criticism was put to rest long ago," followed by a list of FARMS publications. So here I will start with a FARMS Review article in an attempt to leapfrog this response.

I think that DP's article, "Yet More Abuse of B. H. Roberts" does a pretty good job of addressing "The Five Questions Roberts Couldn't Answer"; however, I find the subsequent VotH discussion rather vacuous.

http://farms.byu.edu/publications/review/?...um=1&id=248

...it is important to say that the link between that book and View of the Hebrews is, at best, weak. There are many, many differences between the Book of Mormon and Ethan Smith's View of the Hebrews-one widely available essay comments upon 84 striking and fundamental disagreements between the two texts-and the similarities are vague and unimpressive.

In other words, JS could not have borrowed from VotH because he did not copy the book verbatim? I fail to see why 84 is such an impressive number. Why should I care whether the number is 84, 3 or 98934564? What difference do differences make?

Nor does Ethan Smith's View of the Hebrews represent a plausible source from which Joseph Smith could have stolen the book.

Far be it from me to accuse anyone of setting up a straw man, but this is your typical straw man argument; no one has accused Joseph Smith of stealing the book. The argument is that both books drew from widely held beliefs of that time period.

Far from being "vague and unimpressive", I found the similarities to be "specific and striking." For example, there are quite a few odd little phrases that pop up in VotH, like "of curious workmanship" that are commonly found in the BoM.

I previously posted a summary of my analysis here. http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php...amp;hl=Timeline

I would appreciate references to articles that specifically address the points listed in the timeline.

I realize that this issue "has been getting a lot of play lately," but that tends to happen when the apologetic material is inadequate.

[e=mc2]

A typical response to issues posted on this board is, "this criticism was put to rest long ago," followed by a list of FARMS publications. So here I will start with a FARMS Review article in an attempt to leapfrog this response.

I think that DP's article, "Yet More Abuse of B. H. Roberts" does a pretty good job of addressing "The Five Questions Roberts Couldn't Answer"; however, I find the subsequent VotH discussion rather vacuous.

http://farms.byu.edu/publications/review/?...um=1&id=248

In other words, JS could not have borrowed from VotH because he did not copy the book verbatim? I fail to see why 84 is such an impressive number. Why should I care whether the number is 84, 3 or 98934564? What difference do differences make?

Far be it from me to accuse anyone of setting up a straw man, but this is your typical straw man argument; no one has accused Joseph Smith of stealing the book. The argument is that both books drew from widely held beliefs of that time period.

Far from being "vague and unimpressive", I found the similarities to be "specific and striking." For example, there are quite a few odd little phrases that pop up in VotH, like "of curious workmanship" that are commonly found in the BoM.

I previously posted a summary of my analysis here. http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php...amp;hl=Timeline

I would appreciate references to articles that specifically address the points listed in the timeline.

I realize that this issue "has been getting a lot of play lately," but that tends to happen when the apologetic material is inadequate.

I guess those of us who have been through this ringer just don't find it all that significant anymore eh? It really doesn't matter than a single individual ended up disbelieving the Book of Mormon. He didn't do that anyway, but oh well. It has nothing to do with the book's truthfulness.

[T-Shirt]

For example, there are quite a few odd little phrases that pop up in VotH, like "of curious workmanship" that are commonly found in the BoM.

After a quick search, the phrase, "curious workmanship" also appears several times in The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire as well as in the English translations of Antiquities of the Jews and the writings of Plutarch.

Do you have other phrases that "pop up"?

Best,

T-Shirt

[LifeOnaPlate]

http://www.jefflindsay.com/bomsource.shtml

[T-Shirt]

Just bumping this to see if Mortal Man has any more to add.

T-Shirt

[Joseph Antley]

FYI, the words "curious workmanship" occur three times in the Book of Mormon. I wouldn't exactly call that a "common phrase".

[Wiki Wonka]

FYI, the words "curious workmanship" occur three times in the Book of Mormon. I wouldn't exactly call that a "common phrase".

The phrase only seems to appear once in View of the Hebrews:

"Golden vines, with leaves and clusters of grapes of gold, were suspended from the ceiling five or six feet, of curious workmanship."

[e=mc2]

The phrase only seems to appear once in View of the Hebrews:

"Golden vines, with leaves and clusters of grapes of gold, were suspended from the ceiling five or six feet, of curious workmanship."

There ya have it! The Book of Mormon scores 3, the View of the Hebrews a mere 1......HA! (watch, critics will attribute this to me as if I am serious and misunderstanding the implications. I betcha all a dollar ninety five fourteen!)

[Joseph Antley]

There ya have it! The Book of Mormon scores 3, the View of the Hebrews a mere 1......HA! (watch, critics will attribute this to me as if I am serious and misunderstanding the implications. I betcha all a dollar ninety five fourteen!)

Woah, wait a second--I think I just figured it all out--

Ethan Smith plagiarized the View of the Hebrews from the Book of Mormon!

[Ambrose]

Woah, wait a second--I think I just figured it all out--

Ethan Smith plagiarized the View of the Hebrews from the Book of Mormon!

Brilliant! I only wish I had thought of plagiarizing the Book of Mormon. Thank God there's still time! :-P

[zerinus]

FYI, the words "curious workmanship" occur three times in the Book of Mormon. I wouldn't exactly call that a "common phrase".

That expression is actually biblical. The exact phrase â??curious workmanshipâ? does not occur in the KJV, but its equivalent does. The word â??curiousâ? (meaning cleverly done handiwork) occurs ten times in the KJV, mostly in the form of the expression â??curious girdle of the ephod,â? which was part of the sacred garments the Lord commanded to be made for Aaron. Here is a typical example:

Exodus 28

:

27 And two other rings of gold thou shalt make, and shalt put them on the two sides of the ephod underneath, toward the forepart thereof, over against the other coupling thereof, above the

curious girdle of the ephod

.

28 And they shall bind the breastplate by the rings thereof unto the rings of the ephod with a lace of blue, that it may be above the

curious girdle of the ephod,

and that the breastplate be not loosed from the ephod.

The expression â??curious workâ? occurs once in the Bible, which is as close to â??curious workmanshipâ? as you can get:

Exodus 35

:

32 And to devise

curious works,

to work in gold, and in silver, and in brass,

So Joseph had plenty of biblical precedents for the choice of that expression. He did not need to turn to non-biblical sources for it.

If you want to accuse Joseph of plagiarism, it is a lot easier to accuse him of plagiarizing the KJV rather than the VoH! But then the question arises, why would he want to quote such extensive passages from the KJV in the BoM, thus exposing himself to the charge of plagiarism, anyway? The BoM contains enough original material that there was no need for him to do that, thus exposing himself to such an accusationâ??unless they were indeed part of the original manuscript. Truth of the matter is, Joseph Smithâ??s own story of how the book came about always turns out to be more believable than the accusations of the critics.

zerinus

[T-Shirt]

Edward Gibbon, Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, vol. 3

The gold or silver plate is less remarkable for its weight than for the brightness and curious workmanship: the taste is gratified without the help of foreign and costly luxury; the size and number of the cups of wine are regulated with a strict regard to the laws of temperance; and the respectful silence that prevails, is interrupted only by grave and instructive conversation.

Edward Gibbon, Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, vol. 5

It was for this earthly paradise that Nature had reserved her choicest favors and her most curious workmanship: the incompatible blessings of luxury and innocence were ascribed to the natives: the soil was impregnated with gold and gems, and both the land and sea were taught to exhale the odors of aromatic sweets.

Edward Gibbon, Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, vol. 6

Lusignan presented him with a gold saltcellar of curious workmanship, and of the price of ten thousand ducats; and Charles the Sixth despatched by the way of Hungary a cast of Norwegian hawks, and six horse-loads of scarlet cloth, of fine linen of Rheims, and of Arras tapestry, representing the battles of the great Alexander.

Flavius Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews

Now the contexture of the curious workmanship of these stones was in three rows, but the fourth row would make one admire its sculptures, whereby were represented trees, and all sorts of plants; with the shades that arose from their branches, and leaves that hung down from them.

Alfred Edersheim, Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah

Exquisitely shaped, curiously designed and jewelled cups, rings and other workmanship of precious metals; glass, silks, fine linen, woollen stuffs, purple, and costly hangings; essences, ointments, and perfumes, as precious as gold; articles of food and drink from foreign landsâ??in short, what India, Persia, Arabia, Media, Egypt, Italy, Greece, and even the far-off lands of the Gentiles yielded, might be had in these bazaars.

Oscar Wilde, Picture of Dorian Gray

Then he remembered the lamp. It was a rather curious one of Moorish workmanship, made of dull silver inlaid with arabesques of burnished steel, and studded with coarse turquoises.

Plutarch, Lives of the Noble Grecians and Romans

When no city in Sicily would admit him, but all hated and abhorred him, he went into Italy and took Rhegium; and there, being in distress and not able to maintain his soldiers, he was killed by Leptines and Polysperchon, and, as fortune would have it with the same sword by which Dion was murdered, which was known by the size, being but short, as the Spartan swords, and the workmanship of it very curious and artificial.

Best,

T-Shirt

[Joseph Antley]

Thanks, T-Shirt. Now we have six sources that Joseph Smith was plagiarizing!

[Daniel Peterson]

Thanks, T-Shirt. Now we have six sources that Joseph Smith was plagiarizing!

And don't forget Walt Whitman's Leaves of Grass!

http://www.jefflindsay.com/bomsource.shtml

Here's a short but exciting play about Joseph Smith the plagiarist:

http://www.jefflindsay.com/oneday.shtml

[Mortal Man]

Just bumping this to see if Mortal Man has any more to add.

T-Shirt

(sigh)

Has anyone actually read my timeline post? http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php...amp;hl=Timeline

I included extensive links and references for your edification. I actually take the time to read FARMS articles before I comment on them and my post is shorter than most of them are.

I am not accusing JS of plagiarizing VotH. I'm not even claiming that he read it. I am suggesting that, whether or not he read it himself, his friends and neighbors certainly read it and discussed its contents with him. One way or another, he became aware of its exhortation to "Teach them [indians] the story of their ancestors". In my reading of VotH, I see Ethan Smith issuing a clear call for something very much like the BoM. If you want to label me a critic, then you must also label Elder Roberts and Elder Reynolds critics; I'll be happy to share their company.

In busying yourselves with your little victory dances and high-fives, you have overlooked the possibility that Ethan Smith may have served as a precursor to Joseph Smith, much like Martin Luther. Instead, you've ensconced yourselves in an untenable trench. You've become like the Bismarck; your egos have shot out your own rudder, leaving you unable to change course or find a new position; hence, you sail around in circles firing off random salvos and waiting for the inevitable.

[Joseph Antley]

And don't forget Walt Whitman's Leaves of Grass!

http://www.jefflindsay.com/bomsource.shtml

Here's a short but exciting play about Joseph Smith the plagiarist:

http://www.jefflindsay.com/oneday.shtml

I wish Jeff would come over and play on the board with us....

[T-Shirt]

In busying yourselves with your little victory dances and high-fives, you have overlooked the possibility that Ethan Smith may have served as a precursor to Joseph Smith, much like Martin Luther. Instead, you've ensconced yourselves in an untenable trench. You've become like the Bismarck; your egos have shot out your own rudder, leaving you unable to change course or find a new position; hence, you sail around in circles firing off random salvos and waiting for the inevitable.

I am not dancing, I was simply responding to your statement wherein you stated:

Far from being "vague and unimpressive", I found the similarities to be "specific and striking." For example, there are quite a few odd little phrases that pop up in VotH, like "of curious workmanship" that are commonly found in the BoM.

You found this similarity "specific and striking" and so I wanted to show you that it is not as striking as you seemed to think and, then, wondered what the other, "quite a few odd little phrases that pop up" are. No victory dancing or high fiving, just a question. What other "specific and striking" similarities do you find?

Best,

T-Shirt

[zerinus]

(sigh)

Has anyone actually read my timeline post? http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php...amp;hl=Timeline

I included extensive links and references for your edification. I actually take the time to read FARMS articles before I comment on them and my post is shorter than most of them are.

I am not accusing JS of plagiarizing VotH. I'm not even claiming that he read it. I am suggesting that, whether or not he read it himself, his friends and neighbors certainly read it and discussed its contents with him. One way or another, he became aware of its exhortation to "Teach them [indians] the story of their ancestors". In my reading of VotH, I see Ethan Smith issuing a clear call for something very much like the BoM. If you want to label me a critic, then you must also label Elder Roberts and Elder Reynolds critics; I'll be happy to share their company.

In busying yourselves with your little victory dances and high-fives, you have overlooked the possibility that Ethan Smith may have served as a precursor to Joseph Smith, much like Martin Luther. Instead, you've ensconced yourselves in an untenable trench. You've become like the Bismarck; your egos have shot out your own rudder, leaving you unable to change course or find a new position; hence, you sail around in circles firing off random salvos and waiting for the inevitable.

You could say that about any book on the planet. That is not something which can lead one to form any definitive conclusions about the book. And how do you explain away all the details of the case that militate against such a hypothesis? How do you explain the fact that Joseph smith was too uneducated to be able to produce such a literature as the Book of Mormon? How do you explain the speed with which the book was produced (approximately 60 working days)? How to you explain the fact that Joseph Smith never made any use of source materials for his work; he never went back and edited what he dictated?

zerinus

[Mortal Man]

You found this similarity "specific and striking" and so I wanted to show you that it is not as striking as you seemed to think and, then, wondered what the other, "quite a few odd little phrases that pop up" are. No victory dancing or high fiving, just a question. What other "specific and striking" similarities do you find?

By "specific and striking" I was referring more to my timeline post than to the "curious workmanship" example. As for the "odd little phrases that pop up", I'm sure that you could provide a Jeff Lindsay type rebuttal to whatever I bring up; hence, I'll make you a deal, I'll concede the "odd little phrases" point if you'll read through my other post and respond in detail to the items mentioned.

[Mortal Man]

he never went back and edited what he dictated

That is incorrect.

[zerinus]

That is incorrect.

Actually, it is not. We have eye witness accounts of that. His wife for a time acted as his scribe, and relates the following experiences:

Emma Smith, who acted as an earlier scribe for Joseph, gave this account in 1856:

â??When my husband was translating the Book of Mormon, I wrote a part of it, as he dictated each sentence, word for word, and when he came to proper names he could not pronounce, or long words, he spelled them out, and while I was writing them, if I made any mistake in spelling, he would stop me and correct my spelling although it was impossible for him to see how I was writing them down at the time. Even the word Sarah he could not pronounce at first, but had to spell it, and I would pronounce it for him.

â??

When he stopped for any purpose at any time he would, when he commenced again, begin where he left off without any hesitation,

and one time while he was translating he stopped suddenly, pale as a sheet, and said, â??Emma, did Jerusalem have walls around it?â?? When I answered, â??Yes,â?? he replied, â??Oh! [i didnâ??t know.] I was afraid I had been deceived.â?? He had such a limited knowledge of history at that time that he did not even know that Jerusalem was surrounded by walls.â? (Edmund C. Briggs, â??A Visit to Nauvoo in 1856,â?

Journal of History

, Jan. 1916, p. 454.)

On another occasion, Emma Smith recorded:

â??The plates often lay on the table without any attempt at concealment, wrapped in a small linen tablecloth, which I had given him to fold them in. I once felt of the plates as they thus lay on the table, tracing their outline and shape. They seemed to be pliable like thick paper, and would rustle with a metallic sound when the edges were moved by the thumb, as one does sometimes thumb the edges of a book.â? (â??Last Testimony of Sister Emma,â?

Saintsâ?? Herald

, 1 Oct. 1879, p. 290; spelling modernized.)

Although the Prophet would polish his skills over the years, Emma acknowledged that Joseph possessed only rudimentary literacy at the time he translated the gold plates:

â??Joseph Smith â?¦ could neither write nor dictate a coherent and well-worded letter; let alone dictating a book like the Book of Mormon. And, though I was an active participant in the scenes that transpired, it is marvelous to me, â??a marvel and a wonder,â?? as much so as to any one else.â?

Source

.

In another sermon elder Nelson adds:

The King James Version of the Bible, for example, was produced by 50 English scholars who accomplished their work in seven years, translating at the rate of one page per day. Expert translators today do well if they can also translate scripture at the rate of one page per day.

In contrast, Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon at the rate of about 10 pages per day, completing the task in about 85 days! (Many of us feel good if we can read the book in that time.)

Such a pace is even more remarkable considering the circumstances under which the Prophet labored. In that same period, while enduring constant distractions and incessant hostility, Joseph Smith moved more than 100 miles from Harmony, Pennsylvania, to Fayette, New York. He applied for a copyright. He received revelations comprising 12 sections of the Doctrine and Covenants. Heavenly beings restored the holy priesthood. Yet he completed the translation in less than three months.

The First Presidency provided opportunity for the Twelve Apostles to see portions of the original manuscript and the printerâ??s manuscript of the Book of Mormon. Words cannot describe the deep emotions we felt as we examined these precious documents

and observed that marks of editing were remarkably rare

.

Source

.

zerinus

[LeSellers]

he never went back and edited what he dictated?

That is incorrect.

It is, and it isn't.

He did edit the Book of Mormon later, after it was first published. But he never did edit the original manuscript before it went to Grandin's print shop.

The editing he did do, a couple of years later, was for grammar, spelling, and a little punctuation (which was not his product in any event).

Lehi

[Mortal Man]

Just bumping this to see if Mortal Man has any more to add.

T-Shirt

Just bumping this to see if T-Shirt has read my timeline post and cares to comment on it.

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php...amp;hl=Timeline