1st Vision-Was It Shared Prior To 1838?

[marmutman]

I am trying to learn where I can read about Joseph Smith stating that he saw both Jesus Christ and Heavenly Father prior to his 1838 account (published in 1842 and which is now the 'official account').

Did he actually share, write, preach or otherwise state or share with anyone that he saw both Jesus Christ and Heavenly Father, prior to the 1838 account? If yes, where can I read the details?

My reasons for asking: Conflicting information I am receiving from the written record (what I've found so far anyway - hence this post), from Church leaders, and from well meaning family and friends.

Scenario #1 - Some say he freely shared his First Vision experience (seeing both Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ) since 1820 when he first had the vision, and shared it continually, and was severely persecuted for it (I think this was the testimony of President Monson in one of the latest Ensigns as well, if I read it correctly and or recall it correctly?)

Wait, yes, here it is, from the January 2009 Ensign (Witnesses Of The Prophet Joseph Smith). “When but 14 years of age, this courageous young man [Joseph Smith] entered a grove of trees, which later would be called sacred, and received an answer to his sincere prayer. There followed for Joseph unrelenting persecution as he related to others the account of the glorious vision he received in that grove. Although he was ridiculed and scorned, he stood firm. Said he, ‘I had seen a vision; I knew it, and I knew that God knew it, and I could not deny it, neither dared I do it’ (Joseph Smith—History 1:25). “Step by step, facing opposition at nearly every turn and yet always guided by the hand of the Lord, Joseph organized The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. He proved courageous in all that he did. “Toward the end of his life, as he was led away with his brother Hyrum to Carthage Jail, he bravely faced what he undoubtedly knew lay ahead for him, and he sealed his testimony with his blood. “As we face life’s tests, may we ever emulate that undaunted courage epitomized by the Prophet Joseph Smith” (“They Marked the Path to Follow,” Ensign, Oct. 2007, 7–8 ).

Scenario #2 - Others say he did have the First Vision, but told very few people, and of those people, he swore them to secrecy to protect them and himself. He also never preached it or taught it publicly at all (to guard it's 'sacredness' and to keep it 'secret' for his and the Saints protection). Therefore, for these reasons there is no evidence (journals of his family members or church members or newspaper stories discussing the severe persecution or of preachers discussing the vision) of his First Vision prior to 1838 because it was not shared prior to 1838/42. They further tell me that the persecution up to that time was solely for the Book of Mormon, the revelations and polygamy, but not for the First Vision, but after 1838/1842 the persecution was then for the First Vision.

To my thinking, both scenarios can't be right (that he kept it secret (scenario #2), and that he preached it in broad daylight and "related [it] to others" -- who were the 'others'? (scenario #1)). And I thought, this would be one of the better places to ask since the discussions here are often well researched and well 'backed-up' (how's that for non-academic lingo?), and frankly, I can't find anything anywhere to show Joseph shared his first vision experience (in it's present day form, ie. his seeing both Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ) prior to it being written down in 1838 and then published in 1842.

As for myself, I've had a major loss of 'faith';not due to this particular issue, but this issue is something that interests me personally, more especially with the ongoing 'conflicting scenarios' my family, friends and Church leaders are sharing with me.

If this board is an inappropriate place to ask this sort of question, I apologize in advance (hey look, I'm practicing 'apologetics' ha).

Thanks.

Matthew Miller

(Alberta Canada)

[marnieh]

I am trying to learn where I can read about Joseph Smith stating that he saw both Jesus Christ and Heavenly Father prior to his 1838 account (published in 1842 and which is now the 'official account').

Did he actually share, write, preach or otherwise state or share with anyone that he saw both Jesus Christ and Heavenly Father, prior to the 1838 account? If yes, where can I read the details?

My reasons for asking: Conflicting information I am receiving from the written record (what I've found so far anyway - hence this post), from Church leaders, and from well meaning family and friends.

Scenario #1 - Some say he freely shared his First Vision experience (seeing both Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ) since 1820 when he first had the vision, and shared it continually, and was severely persecuted for it (I think this was the testimony of President Monson in one of the latest Ensigns as well, if I read it correctly and or recall it correctly?)

Wait, yes, here it is, from the January 2009 Ensign (Witnesses Of The Prophet Joseph Smith). â??When but 14 years of age, this courageous young man [Joseph Smith] entered a grove of trees, which later would be called sacred, and received an answer to his sincere prayer. There followed for Joseph unrelenting persecution as he related to others the account of the glorious vision he received in that grove. Although he was ridiculed and scorned, he stood firm. Said he, â??I had seen a vision; I knew it, and I knew that God knew it, and I could not deny it, neither dared I do itâ?? (Joseph Smithâ??History 1:25). â??Step by step, facing opposition at nearly every turn and yet always guided by the hand of the Lord, Joseph organized The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. He proved courageous in all that he did. â??Toward the end of his life, as he was led away with his brother Hyrum to Carthage Jail, he bravely faced what he undoubtedly knew lay ahead for him, and he sealed his testimony with his blood. â??As we face lifeâ??s tests, may we ever emulate that undaunted courage epitomized by the Prophet Joseph Smithâ? (â??They Marked the Path to Follow,â? Ensign, Oct. 2007, 7â??8 ).

Scenario #2 - Others say he did have the First Vision, but told very few people, and of those people, he swore them to secrecy to protect them and himself. He also never preached it or taught it publicly at all (to guard it's 'sacredness' and to keep it 'secret' for his and the Saints protection). Therefore, for these reasons there is no evidence (journals of his family members or church members or newspaper stories discussing the severe persecution or of preachers discussing the vision) of his First Vision prior to 1838 because it was not shared prior to 1838/42. They further tell me that the persecution up to that time was solely for the Book of Mormon, the revelations and polygamy, but not for the First Vision, but after 1838/1842 the persecution was then for the First Vision.

To my thinking, both scenarios can't be right (that he kept it secret (scenario #2), and that he preached it in broad daylight and "related [it] to others" -- who were the 'others'? (scenario #1)). And I thought, this would be one of the better places to ask since the discussions here are often well researched and well 'backed-up' (how's that for non-academic lingo?), and frankly, I can't find anything anywhere to show Joseph shared his first vision experience (in it's present day form) prior to it being written in 1838 and then published in 1842.

As for myself, I've had a major loss of 'faith';not due to this particular issue, but this issue is something that interests me personally, more especially with the ongoing 'conflicting scenarios' my family, friends and Church leaders are sharing with me.

If this board is an inappropriate place to ask this sort of question, I apologize in advance (hey look, I'm practicing 'apologetics' ha).

Thanks.

Matthew Miller

(Alberta Canada)

Regretably, I have not been able to get a handle on the first vision at all. There are just too many of them.

I can recommend a good verse though: John 8:32

[John_Oaks]

Here are a few FAIR articles that should provide a good starting point.

http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences/20...al_Stories.html

http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Brochures/The_First_Vision.pdf

[Connolly]

Check out the resources at FAIR, topical guide, Joseph Smith, First Vision

http://www.fairlds.org/apol/ai063.html

[Zakuska]

Don't forget this list:

The DVD fails to mention a substantial number of additional First Vision recitals given during the Prophet's lifetime:

1831 sermon by the Prophet reported by Lorenzo Snow

1833 remarks by the Prophet reported by John Alger

1834 sermon by the Prophet reported by Joseph Curtis and Edward Stevenson

1835 missionary statements reported by Samuel Richards

1837 sermon by the Prophet reported by Mary Horne

1839 interview with the Prophet's parents reported by Wandle Mace

1840 missionary pamphlet published by Orson Pratt

1842 missionary pamphlet published by Orson Hyde

1843 sermon by the Prophet reported by Levi Richards

1843 interview with Joseph Smith published in the Pittsburgh Gazette

1844 interview with the Prophet reported by Alexander Neibaur

http://en.fairmormon.org/Search_for_the_Tr...VD/First_Vision

[Nevo]

To my thinking, both scenarios can't be right (that he kept it secret (scenario #2), and that he preached it in broad daylight and "related [it] to others" -- who were the 'others'? (scenario #1)). And I thought, this would be one of the better places to ask since the discussions here are often well researched and well 'backed-up' (how's that for non-academic lingo?), and frankly, I can't find anything anywhere to show Joseph shared his first vision experience (in it's present day form, ie. his seeing both Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ) prior to it being written down in 1838 and then published in 1842.

Hi Matthew,

Joseph Smith's diary entry for 9 November 1835 records a conversation he had with Robert Matthews (aka "Joshua the Jewish Minister") in which he described his first vision experience, including seeing two personages:

"a personage appeared in the midst of this pillar of flame which was spread all around, and yet nothing consumed, another personage soon appeared like unto the first, he said unto me thy sins are forgiven thee . . ." (see Dean C. Jessee, comp. and ed.,

Personal Writings of Joseph Smith

, rev. ed. [salt Lake City, UT: Deseret Book; Provo, UT: Brigham Young University Press, 2002], 105).

So Joseph did share the experience privately in the 1830s. But the historical evidence presently available does suggest, as BYU historian James Allen noted, that "at best [the First Vision story] received only limited circulation" prior to the 1840s. Allen points out that "Joseph Smith himself never used the First Vision to illustrate his own expanded teachings about God. It appears, in fact, that he seldom referred to it at all, except in private conversation, even after it was published" (James B. Allen, "Emergence of a Fundamental: The Expanding Role of Joseph Smith's First Vision in Mormon Religious Thought," Journal of Mormon History 7 [1980]:51-52).

Some historians, like Richard Bushman and D. Michael Quinn, have proposed explanations for why this is so. But whatever his reasons may have been, I think Joseph's reticence to discuss the vision is actually good evidence that it happened. If he simply invented the story in the 1830s to bolster his authority (as some critics claim), he certainly didn't get much mileage out of it.

[stn9]

...

[livy111us]

You can watch Matthew Browns lecture on Youtube here:

It's a six part series, just click "This is a video response to pt 2 Revised or Unaltered? Joseph Smith's Foundational Story" to see the next portion.

A number of great articles can be found here:

http://en.fairmormon.org/First_Vision_accounts

From Matthew Browns lecture:

A neighbor of the Smiths whose name was Palmer, said “she remembered... the

excitement stirred up among some of the people over the boy's first vision.” (BYU Studies9/3 1969:235)

[i take this as an immediate response in 1820]. Joseph Knight Jr says that Joseph Smith told him of the

First Vision in 1826 (Autobiography of Joseph Knight Jr., p. 1 (church archives), cited in Backman,

Eyewitness Accounts, 72). In February 1830 Joseph Smith's own hometown newspaper announced that

he had seen God "personally." (The Reflector, 14 February 1830) While another paper is quoted as

saying that Joseph Smith “had been visited in a dream by the spirit of the Almighty”(The Rochester

Advertiser and Telegraph, Aug. 31, 1829) The facts are tainted, but it shows that it was taught. In 1831

the Prophet told a crowd of nearly 250 people about this glorious manifestation (Improvement Era, vol.

40, no. 2, February 1937, 82-83), and in 1834 we know that he related it in the midst of "many large

congregations." (Edward Stevenson, Reminiscences of Joseph, the Prophet, and the Coming Forth of

the Book of Mormon (Salt Lake City: Edward Stevenson, 1893), 4)

1824 - Fall. Joseph Smith's father tells Martin Harris about the First Vision (Willard Bean, A.B.C. History of Palmyra and the Beginning of Mormonism [Palmyra, New York: Palmyra Courier Co., 1938], 35).

1830 - November. Missionaries - including Oliver Cowdery and Orson Pratt - tell non-Mormons that Joseph Smith has "seen God . . . personally" (The Reflector, vol. 2, no. 13, 14 February 1831). Painesville, Ohio.

1831 - January. Sometime before this date Joseph Smith has told one of his friends where the First Vision took place (Improvement Era, vol. 9, no. 5, March 1906, 380–81).

1831 - April. The "Articles and Covenants" of the LDS Church - which contain a direct reference to the First Vision - are published in a non-Mormon newspaper (Telegraph, 19 April 1831). Painesville, Ohio.

1831 - November. Lorenzo Snow and about 250 other people hear Joseph Smith talk about the First Vision (Improvement Era, vol. 40, no. 2, February 1937, 82-83).

1832 - February. Missionaries - Orson Pratt and Lyman Johnson - tell non-Mormons the beginning elements of the First Vision story (The Fredonia Censor, vol. 11, no. 50, 7 March 1832).

1832 - June. The "Articles and Covenants" of the LDS Church - which contain a direct reference to the First Vision - are published in the Church's newspaper (Evening and Morning Star, vol. 1, no. 1, June 1832).

1832 - November. Joseph Smith and Frederick G. Williams record a history of the Church that includes the First Vision story but it is never published.

1833 - July. The Book of Commandments was published and it included a copy of the “Articles and Covenants” of the Church which, in turn, contained a reference to the First Vision (Book of Commandments, chapter 24, verses 6–7, page 48 - this is the precursor to D&C 20:5-6).

1834 - October. Joseph Smith tells the First Vision story to "large congregations" in Pontiac, Michigan (Juvenile Instructor, vol. 29, 1 September 1894, 443; Reminiscences of Joseph, the Prophet, 4; “History of Joseph Curtis, son of Nahum & Millicent Curtis, which was born Dec. 24, 1818, in the Town of Coneatea, Erie Co., Penn., LDS Church Archives, Salt Lake City, Utah, 5-6).

1834 - December. Oliver Cowdery prints a large portion of the beginning of the First Vision story in the Church's newspaper (Messenger and Advocate, vol. 1, no. 3, December 1834, 43).

1835 - May. Joseph Smith preached a sermon with the theme "This is my Beloved Son, hear Him" (Letter, William W. Phelps to Sally Phelps, 2 June 1835, Journal History, LDS Church Archives).

1835 - August. By this point in time the Samuel W. Richards family has heard about the First Vision in Massachusetts and shortly thereafter they are visited by missionaries who confirm the account (Young Woman’s Journal, vol. 18, no. 12, December 1907, 537-39).

1835 - October. William W. Phelps composed a hymn that referred to the First Vision (Messenger and Advocate, vol. 2, no. 13, October 1835, 208).

1835 - November. Joseph Smith rehearsed the First Vision story to two non-Mormons within a six-day period (Joseph Smith journal November 9th and 14th).

1836 - November. Joseph Smith "gave the history of these things relating many particulars of the manner of his first visions" (Parley P. Pratt to the Elders and Brethren of the Church of Latter-day Saints in Canada, 27 November 1836, MS, LDS Church Archives, Salt Lake City, Utah).

1837 - August. Joseph Smith relates the First Vision story to a group of Saints in Canada (Young Woman's Journal, vol. 31, no. 4, April 1920, 212).

1838 - May. Joseph Smith and a scribe compose the First Vision account that ends up being published in 1842 and eventually included in the Pearl of Great Price.

1838 - September. Orson Pratt recites the First Vision story to a group gathered in a schoolhouse in New Jersey. This group includes non-Mormon William I. Appleby (baptized in September 1840).

1839 - May. The Prophet's parents tell a Church member about his "glorious vision of the Father and the Son" (Wandle Mace, Autobiography, BYU Special Collections, Writings of Early Latter-day Saints, 45).

[urroner]

Pretending I'm a critic:

In view of all the evidence presented in this thread, we can all safely conclude that the answer to the question "Was is shared prior to 1838," is a simply "NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Next question!!

[livy111us]

Pretending I'm a critic:

In view of all the evidence presented in this thread, we can all safely conclude that the answer to the question "Was is shared prior to 1838," is a simply "NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Next question!!

WOW! I think that is the best impersonation of a critic I've ever seen!

[Jaybear]

Pretending I'm a critic:

In view of all the evidence presented in this thread, we can all safely conclude that the answer to the question "Was is shared prior to 1838," is a simply "NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Next question!!

I don't believe that ... "Was i[t] shared prior to 1938" ... was the question that was asked.

Critic don't dispute that Smith told about the "first vision" prior to 1838. The question is when did Smith speak of seeing both Jesus Christ and God as separate personages?

Wouldn't a substantive discussion be more interesting than pretending critics are dishonest and/or stupid?

This article for example may or may not be directly on point, and would be topical to the question: 1835 - May. Joseph Smith preached a sermon with the theme "This is my Beloved Son, hear Him" (Letter, William W. Phelps to Sally Phelps, 2 June 1835, Journal History, LDS Church Archives).

[flashmax67]

Some good stuff in this thread!!!

I am an active member of this church for over 30 years and there is some info in this thread that I didnt know before, good stuff, aguess learning is always ongoing.

All I can say to you Marmutman, is dont give up faith easily, if your faith got jolted by whatever means, please give it a REAL investigation, analysis and prayer to the Lord, before you make a decision.

May the Lord be with you.

god bless

Tom

[Nevo]

From Matthew Browns lecture:

A neighbor of the Smiths whose name was Palmer, said â??she remembered... the excitement stirred up among some of the people over the boy's first vision.â? (BYU Studies9/3 1969:235) [i take this as an immediate response in 1820]. Joseph Knight Jr says that Joseph Smith told him of the First Vision in 1826 (Autobiography of Joseph Knight Jr., p. 1 (church archives), cited in Backman, Eyewitness Accounts, 72). In February 1830 Joseph Smith's own hometown newspaper announced that he had seen God "personally." (The Reflector, 14 February 1830).

A few caveats need to made here.

• First of all, Mrs. Palmer's statement was not "an immediate response in 1820." She was an elderly lady living in Utah when she gave her statement to Martha Cox, who recorded it. According to Cox's account, Mrs. Palmer stated that her father owned a farm near the Smiths (his identity remains unknown) and often hired Joseph to work for him. "She remembered the excitement stirred up among the people over the boy's first vision, and of hearing her father contend that it was only the sweet dream of a pure minded boy." Cox's account is thirdhand and, as far as I know, "Mrs. Palmer"'s identity has never been established. As Larry Morris points out in his article, Oliver Cowdery and His Critics: "If secondhand evidence is problematic, thirdhand evidence is hugely more so." Also, even if the reference to Joseph's "first vision" is correct, it could just as easily refer to his 1823 vision of Moroni. So this really isn't a strong piece of evidence.
  
• As for the claim that Joseph Knight, Jr. "says that Joseph Smith told him of the First Vision in 1826," that's simply untrue. Backman records his statement as follows:

  "In 1827 [the winter of 1826-1827] he [my father] hired Joseph Smith. Joseph and I worked and slept together. My father said Joseph was the best hand he ever hired. We found him a boy of truth. He was about 21 years of age. I think it was in November [1826] he made known to my father and I that he had seen a vision, that a personage had appeared to him and told him where there was a gold book of ancient date buried, and if he would follow the directions of the angel he could get it. We were told it in secret; I being the youngest son, my two older brothers did not believe in such things. My father and I believed what he told us."

  
  Obviously this is referring to the 1823 vision of Moroni.
  
• Joseph Smith's "own hometown newspaper" didn't announce in February 1830 that Joseph Smith had seen God "personally." Rather, in February 1831, it reprinted an article from the Painesville Telegraph reporting on Mormon missionary preaching in Ohio. Here is the context of the statement:

  "that about the first of Nov. last, Oliver Cowdery, {we shall notice this character in the course of our labors,} and three others arrived at that village with the "New Bible," on a mission to the notorious Sidney Rigdon, who resides in the adjoining town. Rigdon received them graciously -- took the book under advisement, and in a few days declared it to be of "Heavenly origin." Rigdon, with about 20 of his flock, were dipt immediately. They then proclaimed that there had been no religion in the world for 1500 years, -- that no one had been authorised to preach &c. for that period, -- that Joe Smith had now received a commission from God for that purpose, and that all such as did not submit to his authority would speedily be destroyed. The world (except the New Jerusalem) would come to an end in two or three years. The state of New York would (probably) be sunk: Smith (they affirmed) had seen God frequently and personally -- Cowdery and his friends had frequent interviews with angels, and had been directed to locate the site for the New Jerusalem, which they should know, the moment they should "step their feet" upon it. They pretend to heal the sick and work miracles, and had made a number of unsuccessful attempts to do so."

  Now this can, I suppose, be taken as evidence that the earliest missionary preaching recounted the First Vision story, but again the source is suspect.
  

[Kevin Christensen]

I think D&C 76, written down in Ohio, Feburary 16 1832 is relevant to questions about when Joseph spoke about seeing Jesus and the Father as separate personages. It also has the advantages of have two witnesses (Joseph and Rigdon) as well as being recorded immediately.

Kevin Christensen

Bethel Park, PA

[098]

Joseph Smith's "own hometown newspaper" didn't announce in February 1830 that Joseph Smith had seen God "personally." Rather, in February 1831, it reprinted an article from the Painesville Telegraph reporting on Mormon missionary preaching in Ohio.

The article in question indicates that the missionaries were preaching in November 1830 that Joseph Smith had seen God "personally."

The missionaries included Pratt and Cowdery (so much for the anti-Mormon fallacy that Oliver Cowdery was clueless about such a thing in 1834-35).

Mrs. Palmer's statement was not "an immediate response in 1820." She was an elderly lady living in Utah when she gave her statement to Martha Cox, who recorded it.

Yes, but Martha Cox was an eyewitness to a testimony borne by an eyewitness to the incident.

even if the reference to Joseph's "first vision" is correct, it could just as easily refer to his 1823 vision of Moroni.

Whatever. The context of the entire account does not support this view.

[marmutman]

Thank you everyone for taking the time to reply.

I was hoping I wouldn't have been given pages upon pages of articles and presentations to read (I read them all, and yes, I do recognize that I am lazy, I'm also human, and I'm also 'dancer' - for all you The Killers fans out there). I was hoping that it would be 'easy' for people to just cut and paste and post positive evidence of Joseph Smith discussing the First Vision (consisting of his seeing BOTH Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ) from 1820 until his death as we are taught to believe in the Church is the actual and factual historic 'truth'.

Instead I found after reading everything that what James Allen says is the closest to my perceived version of the 'truth', based upon present historical evidence. Namely, quoting Allen "...at best [the First Vision story] received only limited circulation...Joseph Smith himself never used the First Vision to illustrate his own expanded teachings about God. It appears, in fact, that he seldom referred to it at all, except in private conversation, even after it was published" (James B. Allen, "Emergence of a Fundamental: The Expanding Role of Joseph Smith's First Vision in Mormon Religious Thought," Journal of Mormon History 7 [1980]:51-52).

Within the articles cited for me to read there is a lot of speculation, conjecture and frankly completely wrong assumptions (ie. the "First Vision" cited in many instances is actually his story of the Nephi/Moroni visitations). I found a complete lack of evidence (in my view) that Joseph ever told a single soul, prior to 1838, that he in fact saw God the Father and Jesus Christ in the sacred grove in the spring of 1820 (or 21, 22, or 23). Not a single family member records the First Vision though the vision of Moroni and the coming forth of the BOM and various other angelic appearances were freely shared and recorded with/by family, neighbors and the world. It appears, to me, unless I have missed the evidence to the contrary, that Joseph Smith MAY, possibly, have shared his First Vision experience (of seeing both Heavenly Father AND Jesus Christ, in the spring of 1820, 21, 22 or 23) with a select few in 'private conversation', perhaps, maybe, but I do not know that in the pages of reading that I've done, that I actually read that. And I know sometimes I only see what I want to see (as we all do), however I was really searching for it and felt that I came away empty handed.

FOLLOW UP QUESTIONS AND THOUGHTS:

#1 - If Joseph Smith was NOT publicly discussing the First Vision and or preaching it and being unrelenting in his testimony of it (as we are taught in the LDS Church and as his example of bearing this testimony (of seeing HF & JC in 1820-ish) in the face of severe and unrelenting persecution is extolled to us as an example for us to follow), if he did NOT testify of it (as James Allen and other historians agree), how could Joseph have possibly been continually and severely persecuted for bearing witness to the world the presently constituted First Vision story if he was, in deed and in fact, NOT bearing this witness to the world? Would it not make more sense that what all of the historical record DOES back up, is 'fact'? ie. that he was persecuted for the sharing only his 'first vision' of: Nephi/Moroni and the coming forth of the Book of Mormon, other angelic visitations and the 'new gospel' that he preached?

#2 - If BYU historians and other researchers (and many people here), are aware that Joseph Smith did NOT preach the First Vision story (and therefore could not possibly have been persecuted for that non-discussed non-published vision/story), why is it that the Church continues to teach that he was in fact severely and continually persecuted for the faithful and unrelenting testimony-giving of that vision/story from 1820 until his death (a story/vision which he apparently did not, indeed, give much if any heed or attention to, during that time frame, if, ever?).

#3 - If I have misread things in the hours of reading and research you all have given me, I apologize. I have misunderstood James Allen and other historians, I apologize. Please just post here (and save me hours of reading) the quotes showing that Joseph Smith did indeed teach, preach and or discuss privately his Fist Vision story prior to it being recorded in 1838 (seeing HF & JC in the spring of 1820-ish) as recorded by himself, his family, or anyone. Otherwise I will have to assume that James Allen and the other historians are right, and be left (as I am presently) giving considerable 'questioning' to the Church's current and historic portrayal of 'accurate history'.

Thank you.

Matthew Miller

[098]

You asked:

Did [Joseph Smith] actually share, write, preach or otherwise state or share with anyone that he saw both Jesus Christ and Heavenly Father, prior to the 1838 account? If yes, where can I read the details?

In post #8 you were given a link to a page where there are many linked articles:

http://en.fairmormon.org/First_Vision_accounts

One of those linked articles was called "Lack of Contemporary Father and Son Vision Until 1838?"

http://en.fairmormon.org/Lack_of_contempor...n_until_1838%3F

One of the timeline points listed for your benefit in post #8 was as follows:

1831 - November. Lorenzo Snow and about 250 other people hear Joseph Smith talk about the First Vision (Improvement Era, vol. 40, no. 2, February 1937, 82-83).

Since you seem to be too lazy to do research let me tell you that in this November 1831 statement at a Church conference at the Johnson farm in Hiram, Ohio Joseph Smith told about 250 people about his meeting with the FATHER and SON. He was "preaching" to the audience.

Another timeline point that you were too lazy to look up is as follows:

1834 - October. Joseph Smith tells the First Vision story to "large congregations" in Pontiac, Michigan (Juvenile Instructor, vol. 29, 1 September 1894, 443).

If you would look up all of Edward Stevenson's accounts of this occurrence you would see that Joseph Smith testified at the time about seeing both the FATHER and SON.

Another timeline point that you were too lazy to look up is as follows:

1835 - August. By this point in time the Samuel W. Richards family has heard about the First Vision in Massachusetts and shortly thereafter they are visited by missionaries who confirm the account (Young Womanâ??s Journal, vol. 18, no. 12, December 1907, 537-39).

If you would bother to actually read the referenced story you would find that the Richards family heard about Joseph Smith seeing the FATHER and SON and then the missionaries confirmed it.

The November 1835 Joseph Smith journal entry speaks of TWO personages who appeared to him and they can easily be identified from the context of the entry.

Another timeline point that you were too lazy to look up is as follows:

1837 - August. Joseph Smith relates the First Vision story to a group of Saints in Canada (Young Woman's Journal, vol. 31, no. 4, April 1920, 212).

If you would have even glanced through this reference you would have seen that Joseph Smith told the gathering about seeing the FATHER and SON.

So now you have five eyewitnesses who have provided you with evidence that Joseph Smith was talking about seeing both the FATHER and SON between 1831 and 1837. This information was disseminated to large congregations and also to small groups of Saints and those who were not of the LDS faith.

[098]

his 'first vision' of: Nephi/Moroni

The Moroni visitation was not Joseph Smith's first vision. And Joseph Smith was not confused about who appeared to him.

READ THIS LINK:

http://en.fairmormon.org/Nephi_or_Moroni

[LifeOnaPlate]

Hi Matthew,

Joseph Smith's diary entry for 9 November 1835 records a conversation he had with Robert Matthews (aka "Joshua the Jewish Minister") in which he described his first vision experience, including seeing two personages:

"a personage appeared in the midst of this pillar of flame which was spread all around, and yet nothing consumed, another personage soon appeared like unto the first, he said unto me thy sins are forgiven thee . . ." (see Dean C. Jessee, comp. and ed.,

Personal Writings of Joseph Smith

, rev. ed. [salt Lake City, UT: Deseret Book; Provo, UT: Brigham Young University Press, 2002], 105).

So Joseph did share the experience privately in the 1830s. But the historical evidence presently available does suggest, as BYU historian James Allen noted, that "at best [the First Vision story] received only limited circulation" prior to the 1840s. Allen points out that "Joseph Smith himself never used the First Vision to illustrate his own expanded teachings about God. It appears, in fact, that he seldom referred to it at all, except in private conversation, even after it was published" (James B. Allen, "Emergence of a Fundamental: The Expanding Role of Joseph Smith's First Vision in Mormon Religious Thought," Journal of Mormon History 7 [1980]:51-52).

Some historians, like Richard Bushman and D. Michael Quinn, have proposed explanations for why this is so. But whatever his reasons may have been, I think Joseph's reticence to discuss the vision is actually good evidence that it happened. If he simply invented the story in the 1830s to bolster his authority (as some critics claim), he certainly didn't get much mileage out of it.

Excellent post.

[lostindc]

Hi Matthew,

Joseph Smith's diary entry for 9 November 1835 records a conversation he had with Robert Matthews (aka "Joshua the Jewish Minister") in which he described his first vision experience, including seeing two personages:

"a personage appeared in the midst of this pillar of flame which was spread all around, and yet nothing consumed, another personage soon appeared like unto the first, he said unto me thy sins are forgiven thee . . ." (see Dean C. Jessee, comp. and ed.,

Personal Writings of Joseph Smith

, rev. ed. [salt Lake City, UT: Deseret Book; Provo, UT: Brigham Young University Press, 2002], 105).

So Joseph did share the experience privately in the 1830s. But the historical evidence presently available does suggest, as BYU historian James Allen noted, that "at best [the First Vision story] received only limited circulation" prior to the 1840s. Allen points out that "Joseph Smith himself never used the First Vision to illustrate his own expanded teachings about God. It appears, in fact, that he seldom referred to it at all, except in private conversation, even after it was published" (James B. Allen, "Emergence of a Fundamental: The Expanding Role of Joseph Smith's First Vision in Mormon Religious Thought," Journal of Mormon History 7 [1980]:51-52).

Some historians, like Richard Bushman and D. Michael Quinn, have proposed explanations for why this is so. But whatever his reasons may have been, I think Joseph's reticence to discuss the vision is actually good evidence that it happened. If he simply invented the story in the 1830s to bolster his authority (as some critics claim), he certainly didn't get much mileage out of it.

I just read this account yesterday, which means I finally got my JS Papers in the mail. The accounts I am reading make me wonder how many other goodies are going to be released by the Church in the future.

[098]

he seldom referred to it at all, except in private conversation, even after it was published

This statement is not accurate (which is why utilizing the old -1980- James Allen article is a problem).

After Joseph Smith published the First Vision on his own in 1842 he allowed a non-LDS book on various religions to print it.

Joseph Smith referred to the First Vision in front of a large crowd near the Nauvoo Temple on 11 June 1843.

Joseph Smith had the First Vision story published in a non-LDS newspaper in September 1843.

[James Banta]

Hi Matthew,

Joseph Smith's diary entry for 9 November 1835 records a conversation he had with Robert Matthews (aka "Joshua the Jewish Minister") in which he described his first vision experience, including seeing two personages:

"a personage appeared in the midst of this pillar of flame which was spread all around, and yet nothing consumed, another personage soon appeared like unto the first, he said unto me thy sins are forgiven thee . . ." (see Dean C. Jessee, comp. and ed.,

Personal Writings of Joseph Smith

, rev. ed. [salt Lake City, UT: Deseret Book; Provo, UT: Brigham Young University Press, 2002], 105).

So Joseph did share the experience privately in the 1830s. But the historical evidence presently available does suggest, as BYU historian James Allen noted, that "at best [the First Vision story] received only limited circulation" prior to the 1840s. Allen points out that "Joseph Smith himself never used the First Vision to illustrate his own expanded teachings about God. It appears, in fact, that he seldom referred to it at all, except in private conversation, even after it was published" (James B. Allen, "Emergence of a Fundamental: The Expanding Role of Joseph Smith's First Vision in Mormon Religious Thought," Journal of Mormon History 7 [1980]:51-52).

Some historians, like Richard Bushman and D. Michael Quinn, have proposed explanations for why this is so. But whatever his reasons may have been, I think Joseph's reticence to discuss the vision is actually good evidence that it happened. If he simply invented the story in the 1830s to bolster his authority (as some critics claim), he certainly didn't get much mileage out of it.

So you believe that the Father in now the intro man for the Son? This conversation never identifies the Father as being present The quote "This is my beloved Son hear Him", is not used.. It never contends that all other churches are wrong or the teachers of the day being corrupt.. They two version are VERY different yet they are enough alike to show that Joseph was formulating his story.. I can say with confidence that if God had appeared to me as Smith said he appeared to him.. I would have remembered every instance about the experience with no gaps EVER.. Joseph Smith was rather cavalier about the whole experience.. IHS jim

[LifeOnaPlate]

So you believe that the Father in now the intro man for the Son? This conversation never identifies the Father as being present The quote "This is my beloved Son hear Him", is not used.. It never contends that all other churches are wrong or the teachers of the day being corrupt.. They two version are VERY different yet they are enough alike to show that Joseph was formulating his story.. I can say with confidence that if God had appeared to me as Smith said he appeared to him.. I would have remembered every instance about the experience with no gaps EVER.. Joseph Smith was rather cavalier about the whole experience.. IHS jim

You've given an interpretation, an evaluation. Other interpretations exist. For example, rather than Smith being cavalier he seems much more thoughtful and measured about what he shared and when.

[Nevo]

#2 - If BYU historians and other researchers (and many people here), are aware that Joseph Smith did NOT preach the First Vision story (and therefore could not possibly have been persecuted for that non-discussed non-published vision/story), why is it that the Church continues to teach that he was in fact severely and continually persecuted for the faithful and unrelenting testimony-giving of that vision/story from 1820 until his death (a story/vision which he apparently did not, indeed, give much if any heed or attention to, during that time frame, if, ever?).

The Church teaches that Joseph Smith was persecuted for telling his vision because that is what Joseph's official--now canonized--account says (JS-H 1:22-25). I don't fault President Monson for taking Joseph at his word. I think he is probably unaware of the problems the account presents. So I don't think it's a case of "the Church" hiding the "truth" about the First Vision, or knowingly presenting an inaccurate version of events.

I think Joseph Smith in his 1838 history probably did exaggerate (perhaps unconsciously) the persecution he received for relating the First Vision story. I think he told the Methodist preacher and that was about it. I'm not sure that he even told his family. The preacher may have told others, but there is no evidence that he did (a possible exception being the Palmer reminiscence). The Hurlbut affidavits are silent on the matter. If the neighbors Hurlbut interviewed knew about the vision, they evidently didn't consider it noteworthy. And the Deming affidavits, collected in the mid-1880s, aren't much better. At best, there is W.R. Hine's recollection that Joseph "claimed to receive revelations from the Lord through prayer, and would pray with his men [money-digging associates], mornings and at other times," and Mrs. S.F. Anderick's testimony that "when Jo joined the Presbyterian Church [sic], in Palmyra village, it caused much talk and surprise, as he claimed to receive revelations from the Lord." The Moroni story was the one that stood out to Joseph Smith's neighbors, and it seems to have been the one that drew most of their ridicule.

[Flyonthewall]

So you believe that the Father in now the intro man for the Son? This conversation never identifies the Father as being present The quote "This is my beloved Son hear Him", is not used.. It never contends that all other churches are wrong or the teachers of the day being corrupt.. They two version are VERY different yet they are enough alike to show that Joseph was formulating his story.. I can say with confidence that if God had appeared to me as Smith said he appeared to him.. I would have remembered every instance about the experience with no gaps EVER.. Joseph Smith was rather cavalier about the whole experience.. IHS jim

Talk to any policeman, or detective and see just how reliable an eyewitness account is for a single incident. The Lord did not do a brain dump into Joseph, Joseph did not come away from the first vision knowing everything.

I believe that there was some formulation of learning going on. I bet the first vision was surreal for Joseph, and not everything sunk in all at once. Combine that, with other angelic visitations, the translation process, and other spiritual experiences he had, and you can see how Joseph's understanding unfolded. Looking back on the experiences he had, he could then put things together, and I believe, he could then interpret things that happened before, with experiences he had later. In this light, it does not bother me that a recitation of the first vision immediately after it happened does not coincide exactly with a recitation years later, or that it changed over time.