Captain Moroni and garments of Joseph

[bjw]

While I was on the FairWiki I was reading the entry about the charge that the BoM was plagiarised from the King James Bible ( http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon_pl..._from_the_Bible ), I read a paragraph that mentioned Captain Moroni quoted a lost manuscript about Joseph's garments:

Now it so happens that other Book of Mormon writers were also peculiarly fond of quoting from the record. Captain Moroni, for example, reminds his people of an old tradition about the two garments of Joseph, telling them a detailed story which I have found only in [th' Alabi of Persia,] a thousand-year-old commentary on the Old Testament, a work still untranslated and quite unknown to the world of Joseph Smith. So I find it not a refutation but a confirmation of the authenticity of the Book of Mormon when Paul and Moroni both quote from a once well-known but now lost Hebrew writing.

I had never heard this before. Does anyone know more about this "th'Alabi" or Persia and what about the BoM version of the Joseph story is similar to it? I assume this is referring to Alma 46:24 about the remnant of the garment compared to the remnant of the tribe of Joseph. So, would this have to be something from the Plates of Brass that was either lost or not included in the Old Testament? If this could be substantiated, this may be some good evidence for the BoM. Anyone know more?

[AeonJ]

bump

[Brant Gardner]

I had never heard this before. Does anyone know more about this "th'Alabi" or Persia and what about the BoM version of the Joseph story is similar to it?

Brian Hauglid of BYU examined the text Nibley used and indicated that Nibley has mistranslated a word as decay that should have been odor. It is a miraculous garment in the story, but the miracle was that its touch healed, not that it was preserved.

Brian M. Hauglid, "Garment of Joseph: An Update," Occasional Papers, no. 4 (Provo, Utah: FARMS, 2003), 26-27.

[katherine the great]

This is confusing. How could Paul and Moroni supposedly quote from a commentary written circa 1000 ad?

[Brant Gardner]

This is confusing. How could Paul and Moroni supposedly quote from a commentary written circa 1000 ad?

The argument would be that all are referencing a much older oral tradition, that was simply recorded by different authors at different times. The idea is correct. The evidence is not as strong as the theory in this case.

[hagoth7]

Brian Hauglid of BYU examined the text Nibley used and indicated that Nibley has mistranslated a word as decay that should have been odor. It is a miraculous garment in the story, but the miracle was that its touch healed, not that it was preserved.

Brian M. Hauglid, "Garment of Joseph: An Update," Occasional Papers, no. 4 (Provo, Utah: FARMS, 2003), 26-27.

Even if Nibley was off here, his idea that the legend of a rent garment percolated through the centuries was spot on.

Several months back, that idea sparked my research into a later, parallel account from the Old World.

(That account is independent of the one Brian defused.)

(If we believe the account was faithfully transmitted from Joseph of Egypt down to the Nephites, it is only reasonable to believe that a similar transmission would have been part of a later Nephite diaspora, if one believes there was such a thing.)

[bjw]

So does this in anyway validate the idea that the rent garment meant that a remnant of Joseph would be preserved, or am I misunderstanding this? Was it a different point altogether? I really want to know if I'm missing this.

[Brant Gardner]

So does this in anyway validate the idea that the rent garment meant that a remnant of Joseph would be preserved, or am I misunderstanding this? Was it a different point altogether? I really want to know if I'm missing this.

It means that it is possible that both Captain Moroni and Paul were referencing oral tradition, but there is currently no evidence that supports it--unless it is what hagoth7 has found.

[bjw]

Even if Nibley was off here, his idea that the legend of a rent garment percolated through the centuries was spot on.Several months back, that idea sparked my research into a later, parallel account from the Old World.(That account is independent of the one Brian defused.)(If we believe the account was faithfully transmitted from Joseph of Egypt down to the Nephites, it is only reasonable to believe that a similar transmission would have been part of a later Nephite diaspora, if one believes there was such a thing.)

I'm curious as to the results of your research.

It means that it is possible that both Captain Moroni and Paul were referencing oral tradition, but there is currently no evidence that supports it--unless it is what hagoth7 has found.

Do you know if there are any translations of this Alabi document floating around the net, or anywhere else?I think I understand what you're saying now, that what he was quoting must have been mentioned in the plates of brass and was carried on to other traditions. So, Moroni and Paul both knew these things from an ancient source.

[hagoth7]

It means that it is possible that both Captain Moroni and Paul were referencing oral tradition, but there is currently no evidence that supports it--unless it is what hagoth7 has found.

I don't have anything that would link Paul and Moroni to a pre-Moroni tradition. The tradition I mentioned is post-Moroni.

[Brant Gardner]

I don't have anything that would link Paul and Moroni to a pre-Moroni tradition. The tradition I mentioned is post-Moroni.

However, a third and independent confirmation might indicate a more widespread and preserved tradition. That would have been the point of Nibley's suggestion as well.

[Ron Beron]

I'm curious as to the results of your research.Do you know if there are any translations of this Alabi document floating around the net, or anywhere else?I think I understand what you're saying now, that what he was quoting must have been mentioned in the plates of brass and was carried on to other traditions. So, Moroni and Paul both knew these things from an ancient source.

I would recommend reading the Koran since the document in question is a commentary on the Joseph passages in that tome. Secondly, take a look at Louis Ginzberg's "Legends of the Jews". There are some interesting post-biblical writings on Joseph's coat.

Edit...I was able to pull up one account from Ginzberg which was taken from the Zohar.

To the resentment of the brethren was added their envy

of Joseph, because their father loved him more than all of

them. Joseph's beauty of person was equal to that of his

mother Rachel, and Jacob had but to look at him to be consoled

for the death of his beloved wife. Reason enough for

distinguishing him among his children.[10] As a token of his

great love for him, Jacob gave

Joseph a coat of many colors,

so light and delicate that it could be crushed and concealed

in the closed palm of one hand. The Hebrew name of the

garment, Passim, conveys the story of the sale of Joseph.

The first letter, Pe, stands for Potiphar, his Egyptian master;

Samek stands for Soharim, the merchantmen that

bought Joseph from the company of Ishmaelites to whom his

brethren had sold him; Yod stands for these same Ishmaelites;

and Mem, for the Midianites that obtained him from

the merchantmen, and then disposed of him to Potiphar.

But Passim. has yet another meaning, "clefts." His brethren

knew that the Red Sea would be cleft in twain in days to

come for Joseph's sake, and they were jealous of the glory

to be conferred upon him. Although they were filled with

hatred of him, it must be said in their favor that they were

not of a sullen, spiteful nature. They did not hide their

feelings, they proclaimed their enmity openly.

[bjw]

I would recommend reading the Koran since the document in question is a commentary on the Joseph passages in that tome. Secondly, take a look at Louis Ginzberg's "Legends of the Jews". There are some interesting post-biblical writings on Joseph's coat.

Edit...I was able to pull up one account from Ginzberg which was taken from the Zohar.

Ron,

Thanks for the recommendations. This should be an interesting read.

[bjw]

I would recommend reading the Koran since the document in question is a commentary on the Joseph passages in that tome. Secondly, take a look at Louis Ginzberg's "Legends of the Jews". There are some interesting post-biblical writings on Joseph's coat.

Edit...I was able to pull up one account from Ginzberg which was taken from the Zohar.

For those that are interested, I found an online copy of the Ginzberg book here:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/loj/index.htm

Should be interesting to see how many remnants of the Jewish religion can be found in Mormonism.

[e=mc2]

However, a third and independent confirmation might indicate a more widespread and preserved tradition. That would have been the point of Nibley's suggestion as well.

By the way Brant, I am enjoying reading your "Second Witness" commentary on the Book of Mormon ***immensly***..... just wanted to say thanks for all your work on that.