Biblical Tests for Discerning True and False Prophets

[Kevin Christensen]

The discussion of the use and abuse of prophesy tests is on page 33-34 of the pdf. It is the test of prophetic fulfillment that is the most qualified and most abused in practice even within the Bible. And of course, for that reason it is the best known test. Given a tendency to "seek to make a man an offender for a word" (Isaiah 29:20) and a reluctance to engage in self-reflection (Matthew 7:1-5), it is therefore, the easiest to manipulate.

There was a good FARMS Preliminary Report on the prophesy tests by Lisa Bolin Hawkins and David Warby. The Rabbi's realized the difficulty in applying this test, and restricted it to obviously short term prophesy and concistancy with other Bible prophecies.

Incidentally, besides Duane Crowther's well known book, The Prophecies of Joseph Smith, there is a more recent study the "large number" of Joseph Smith's prophesies. See the review by John W. Welch in BYU Studies v 43 n 2, p 190, of Pat Ament, Joseph Smith's Prophetic Gifts: His Prophesies Fulfilled (Two Lights, 2003).

Kevin Christensen

Bethel Park, PA

[marnieh]

The discussion of the use and abuse of prophesy tests is on page 33-34 of the pdf. It is the test of prophetic fulfillment that is the most qualified and most abused in practice even within the Bible. And of course, for that reason it is the best known test. Given a tendency to "seek to make a man an offender for a word" (Isaiah 29:20) and a reluctance to engage in self-reflection (Matthew 7:1-5), it is therefore, the easiest to manipulate.

There was a good FARMS Preliminary Report on the prophesy tests by Lisa Bolin Hawkins and David Warby. The Rabbi's realized the difficulty in applying this test, and restricted it to obviously short term prophesy and concistancy with other Bible prophecies.

Incidentally, besides Duane Crowther's well known book, The Prophecies of Joseph Smith, there is a more recent study the "large number" of Joseph Smith's prophesies. See the review by John W. Welch in BYU Studies v 43 n 2, p 190, of Pat Ament, Joseph Smith's Prophetic Gifts: His Prophesies Fulfilled (Two Lights, 2003).

Kevin Christensen

Bethel Park, PA

I don't understand. Are you saying that a false prophet can not be determined simply by whether or not his prophecy is false, in whole or in part, or what? How might such be abused or manipulated?

[Kevin Christensen]

I don't understand. Are you saying that a false prophet can not be determined simply by whether or not his prophecy is false, in whole or in part, or what? How might such be abused or manipulated?

The point of me attempting a comprehensive list of twenty-eight distinct Biblical tests for true prophets was to demonstrate that their is much more to the question than looking for a single false prophecy. And if you read the references I provided on pages 33-34 of the pdf is to show cases where the Bible shows exactly how such might be abused or manipulated. For example, during Jesus' trial, witnesses came forward to report that Jesus had said that if someone tore down the temple, he would raise it again in three days. The scriptures report that the critics misunderstood that he was referring to the temple of his body. You could also look at the career of Jeremiah, in Jeremiah 15:15, 17, where he suffered "rebuke" and "mockery" and even personal doubt (Jer. 15:18) over some of the prophesies. These are questions interpretation and of how long to wait.

John Tvedtnes has an excellent essay on this specific question here, if you want more than I provided.

http://www.fairlds.org/Bible/Nature_of_Pro...d_Prophecy.html

Kevin Christensen

Bethel Park, PA

[sleepyhead]

FAIR has now posted the PDF of Biblical Keys for Discerning True and False Prophets. They are also working on getting it into the Wiki. I think the pdf will be most useful because it is complete and portable. Missionaries could put it on memory sticks, for instance. Anyway, it is all done, hypertexted, bookmarked and ready to go.

See the What's New at FAIR page here: http://www.fairlds.org/

There. That's a thirty year load off my mind.

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA

I went to the above website, inserted "Biblical Keys for Discerning True and False Prophets" into the search engine and your article didn't come up.

[Kevin Christensen]

For now, you can see listed on the What's New list at www.fairlds.org

Kevin Christensen

Bethel Park, PA

[Kevin Christensen]

For any who are still having trouble, this is the actual link:

http://www.fairlds.org/Bible/prophettestsfv5.pdf

Kevin Christensen

Bethel Park, PA

[Ron Beron]

The point of me attempting a comprehensive list of twenty-eight distinct Biblical tests for true prophets was to demonstrate that their is much more to the question than looking for a single false prophecy. And if you read the references I provided on pages 33-34 of the pdf is to show cases where the Bible shows exactly how such might be abused or manipulated. For example, during Jesus' trial, witnesses came forward to report that Jesus had said that if someone tore down the temple, he would raise it again in three days. The scriptures report that the critics misunderstood that he was referring to the temple of his body. You could also look at the career of Jeremiah, in Jeremiah 15:15, 17, where he suffered "rebuke" and "mockery" and even personal doubt (Jer. 15:18) over some of the prophesies. These are questions interpretation and of how long to wait.

John Tvedtnes has an excellent essay on this specific question here, if you want more than I provided.

http://www.fairlds.org/Bible/Nature_of_Pro...d_Prophecy.html

Kevin Christensen

Bethel Park, PA

Kevin,

I was wondering, after having a cursory look at your paper, whether you included any of the unique variables present in the determination of a prophet as seen through the eyes of the ancient? For example, what we consider a prophet today would be certainly different and unrecognizable from the prophets of ancient Israel, i.e. ecstatic prophecy (nabib), artefactual prophecy (prophecy through divination), spontaneous prophecy, etc. While I found your summations excellent in light of modern and NT theology I saw it less than fulfilling in looking at OT prophecy.

[Kevin Christensen]

Kevin,

I was wondering, after having a cursory look at your paper, whether you included any of the unique variables present in the determination of a prophet as seen through the eyes of the ancient? For example, what we consider a prophet today would be certainly different and unrecognizable from the prophets of ancient Israel, i.e. ecstatic prophecy (nabib), artefactual prophecy (prophecy through divination), spontaneous prophecy, etc. While I found your summations excellent in light of modern and NT theology I saw it less than fulfilling in looking at OT prophecy.

I intended to collect all passages that described ways to discern true from false. While I invite further consideration into the ancient context, I have also noticed in none of the discussions of various kinds of prophecy that I have seen really concern themselves with the question of discerning true and false. I'm trying to fill a gap, to be comprehensive on this particular question, which is rarely taken seriously enough to consider as a real issue.

Kevin Christensen

Bethel Park, PA

[marnieh]

The point of me attempting a comprehensive list of twenty-eight distinct Biblical tests for true prophets was to demonstrate that their is much more to the question than looking for a single false prophecy. And if you read the references I provided on pages 33-34 of the pdf is to show cases where the Bible shows exactly how such might be abused or manipulated. For example, during Jesus' trial, witnesses came forward to report that Jesus had said that if someone tore down the temple, he would raise it again in three days. The scriptures report that the critics misunderstood that he was referring to the temple of his body. You could also look at the career of Jeremiah, in Jeremiah 15:15, 17, where he suffered "rebuke" and "mockery" and even personal doubt (Jer. 15:18) over some of the prophesies. These are questions interpretation and of how long to wait.

John Tvedtnes has an excellent essay on this specific question here, if you want more than I provided.

http://www.fairlds.org/Bible/Nature_of_Pro...d_Prophecy.html

Kevin Christensen

Bethel Park, PA

Thanks for the reply and the link. I read the article and have a good understanding of your position. Although I appreciate the amount of thought, hard work and effort that obviously went into the piece, for me it still sort of boils down to whether stuff prophecied came to pass or not. I would also note that this remains the core of the entire debate in my view. Even if there are indeed other tests, the Deut. test remains and I can't simply ignore it or favor another test over it. Also, concerning the discussion about the lack of a time table in the Deut. test, I am wondering how/if that helps when the prophecy itself provides a timetable, or if timing is not otherwise an issue, and the prophecy does not come true?

[LifeOnaPlate]

The puzzling thing to me, marnieh, is that you appear to hold a view of discerning true and false prophets that differs from what those living in Biblical times (so to speak) expected.

[Ron Beron]

I intended to collect all passages that described ways to discern true from false. While I invite further consideration into the ancient context, I have also noticed in none of the discussions of various kinds of prophecy that I have seen really concern themselves with the question of discerning true and false. I'm trying to fill a gap, to be comprehensive on this particular question, which is rarely taken seriously enough to consider as a real issue.

Kevin Christensen

Bethel Park, PA

Thanks for the response. I suppose my question is not to any degree whether the prophecy was true or false, but the absolute nature of prophecy in the OT,i.e., was prophecy simply divination or was it more than that? Additionally, did one have to be chosen by God or self-made such as Balaam who, at best, operated accurately yet not within the pervue of God's instruction?

[Cold Steel]

...what we consider a prophet today would be certainly different and unrecognizable from the prophets of ancient Israel....

Only in the sense of function. Old Testament prophets usually appeared as guides, meddling in the local politics of the day and keeping the various kings in check, as well as idol worship, etc. When Jesus came, the prophets became administrative agents of God in running the church. They concerned themselves with missionary work, the temporal and spiritual salvation of the saints and with keeping the church together and functioning. Guidance came primarily through the gift of the Holy Spirit, but did include angels, visions, etc., just as it does today. While the OT prophets ministered primarily to kings, NT prophets and apostles ministered primarily to the people.

...it still sort of boils down to whether stuff prophesied came to pass or not. I would also note that this remains the core of the entire debate in my view.

I don't believe you'll find disagreement here. Joseph Smith's track record was at least as good as that any of the ancient prophets; the same is true of Heber C. Kimball and others. What our people are saying is that prophets must all be judged from the same standard and not different ones for ancient and modern.

[marnieh]

The puzzling thing to me, marnieh, is that you appear to hold a view of discerning true and false prophets that differs from what those living in Biblical times (so to speak) expected.

Can you please explain what you mean? I know that Christ warned that by their fruit we would know them, and of false prophets predicting correctly, but He did not abandon this basic test as set forth in Deuteronomy did He? Btw, I also want to acknowledge that this is not the only test, especially as told in the OT, I just think that if a prophet's predictions about an event do not happen as told, Deuteronomy really requires that we consider that prophet to be a false prophet. At least I can't figure out how not to come to that conclusion, even in light of other tests. Help!

[marnieh]

I don't believe you'll find disagreement here. Joseph Smith's track record was at least as good as that any of the ancient prophets; the same is true of Heber C. Kimball and others. What our people are saying is that prophets must all be judged from the same standard and not different ones for ancient and modern.

I don't guess I can disagree with this statement. Can you explain how it is that I might have done this though based on my understanding of the test in Deuteronomy? I'm wondering specifically how do I overcome the fact (if it is a fact) that any of Joseph Smith's prophecy did not come true?

[LifeOnaPlate]

Can you please explain what you mean? I know that Christ warned that by their fruit we would know them, and of false prophets predicting correctly, but He did not abandon this basic test as set forth in Deuteronomy did He? Btw, I also want to acknowledge that this is not the only test, especially as told in the OT, I just think that if a prophet's predictions about an event do not happen as told, Deuteronomy really requires that we consider that prophet to be a false prophet. At least I can't figure out how not to come to that conclusion, even in light of other tests. Help!

marnieh, once again, the paper demonstrates why your criteria is not held up by the Bible itself.

[marnieh]

marnieh, once again, the paper demonstrates why your criteria is not held up by the Bible itself.

I'm sorry but I just don't get that from the paper. Or the link that Kevin sent me. It's not my criteria Life!

[Zakuska]

Can you please explain what you mean? I know that Christ warned that by their fruit we would know them, and of false prophets predicting correctly, but He did not abandon this basic test as set forth in Deuteronomy did He? Btw, I also want to acknowledge that this is not the only test, especially as told in the OT, I just think that if a prophet's predictions about an event do not happen as told, Deuteronomy really requires that we consider that prophet to be a false prophet. At least I can't figure out how not to come to that conclusion, even in light of other tests. Help!

Lets put your little test to a test Marnieh... Can you show me where this Prophecy by Ezekiel came to pass "as told"?

Ezekiel 26

1 And it came to pass in the eleventh year, in the first day of the month, that the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,

2 Son of man, because that Tyrus hath said against Jerusalem, Aha, she is broken that was the gates of the people: she is turned unto me: I shall be replenished, now she is laid waste:

3 Therefore thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, O Tyrus, and will cause many nations to come up against thee, as the sea causeth his waves to come up.

4 And they shall destroy the walls of Tyrus, and break down her towers: will also scrape her dust from her, and make her like the top of a rock.

5 It shall be a place for the spreading of nets in the midst of the sea: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord God: and it shall become a spoil to the nations.

6 And her daughters which are in the field shall be slain by the sword; and they shall know that I am the Lord.

7

[marnieh]

Lets put your little test to a test Marnieh... Can you show me where this Prophecy by Ezekiel came to pass "as told"?

Ezekiel 26

1 And it came to pass in the eleventh year, in the first day of the month, that the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,

2 Son of man, because that Tyrus hath said against Jerusalem, Aha, she is broken that was the gates of the people: she is turned unto me: I shall be replenished, now she is laid waste:

3 Therefore thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, O Tyrus, and will cause many nations to come up against thee, as the sea causeth his waves to come up.

4 And they shall destroy the walls of Tyrus, and break down her towers: will also scrape her dust from her, and make her like the top of a rock.

5 It shall be a place for the spreading of nets in the midst of the sea: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord God: and it shall become a spoil to the nations.

6 And her daughters which are in the field shall be slain by the sword; and they shall know that I am the Lord.

7

[Zakuska]

Here, I'll make it easy for you... This is how the Bible says it was fulfilled...

Ezekiel 29

17

[marnieh]

Here, I'll make it easy for you... This is how the Bible says it was fulfilled...

Ezekiel 29

17

[Zakuska]

Thanks. I'm going to keep studying, but I am wondering is your position that they were both false prophets or that neither were false prophets or what?

My position is that neither one where False Prophets... and that more often than not people become too stringent in their application of true and false prophet tests and fall off the deep end. It stems from the fact that all prophecy is conditional. Wether or not the conditions are explicitly layed out in the pronounced prophecy or not.

For example... A lot of Joseph Smiths supposed failed prophecies arn't even Prophectic in nature.

Another mistake I see people make with the Deut 18 test is it has nothing to do with true and False Prophets. But it has everything to do with how to Discern how and when a Prophet is Speaking for God and when he is not.

21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the Lord hath not spoken?

22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

It says it right there! Perhaps Ezekiel got a little carried away in stating that King Neb. would breach the walls and carry away the loot. Because the Bible says that did not come to pass, So apparently that was the thing God DID not speak and Ezekiel presumpusously spoke it from himself.

[marnieh]

Thanks. I'm going to keep studying, but I am wondering is your position that they were both false prophets or that neither were false prophets or what?

Ok I think I'm starting to get your position on this, even if I still don't understand it. Is your position then that whether or not the prophecy turns out to be true doesn't really matter given Ezekiel? (Btw, didn't Tyre finally fall under Alexander the Great?)

[Zakuska]

Ok I think I'm starting to get your position on this, even if I still don't understand it. Is your position then that whether or not the prophecy turns out to be true doesn't really matter given Ezekiel? (Btw, didn't Tyre finally fall under Alexander the Great?)

Yes it Did finally Fall 150+ years later, but thats not what Ezekiel said, he said King Neb. would be the one to conquer it. Not Alexander. In fact the only thing that Ezekiel appears to have gotten right about the whole saga is that King Neb. layed seige to Tyre.

[Ron Beron]

Only in the sense of function. Old Testament prophets usually appeared as guides, meddling in the local politics of the day and keeping the various kings in check, as well as idol worship, etc. When Jesus came, the prophets became administrative agents of God in running the church. They concerned themselves with missionary work, the temporal and spiritual salvation of the saints and with keeping the church together and functioning. Guidance came primarily through the gift of the Holy Spirit, but did include angels, visions, etc., just as it does today. While the OT prophets ministered primarily to kings, NT prophets and apostles ministered primarily to the people.

I would have to respectfully disagree. Rather than guides many of the ancient prophets were fairly itinerant moving from place to place hiring out to whomever would pay them (consider Balaam). Certainly there were prophets who served kings and localities, but there were those who worked among the masses on mundane activities. Among these were an actual "school of prophets" who trained in a variety of artificialities to appear like they were among the "nahbi" or ecstatic prophets. An example takes place with Samuel telling Saul, "The spirit of YHWH will suddenly take possession of you , and you too will be rapt like a prophet and become another man".

Such diviners employed various methods to obtain their "sight", e.g., Isaiah 28:7 tells of using alcohol to gain the possession.

In II Kings 3:15-16 and I Samuel 10:5 the prophets used music.

In some cases prognasticators used dreams although they may not have been from God nor sought of God. To dream in Hebrew is

"pathar" or to analyze or dissolve. An early form of dream interpretation. They were simply interpreting the dreams. In Jeremiah 23:25 we read of just one account. Many times the dreamer would attempt to incubate his dream by sleeping in holy areas.(for examples; Gen 28:10-22;44:1;Psalms 3:6;4:9;17:15;I Kings 3:3-5; I Sam 3:3-5). Not all of Israelitie prophets divined in the

same manner.

Some divined by the movement of the trees. In II Samuel 5:24 we read of gauging Israelis attack against the Phillistine by the

movement of the trees. These diviners were called "Meonem". There were also

those called, "qesem" who divined according to rods or arrows. In Hosea 4:12 and I Samuel 20 we read of these diviners who divined according to the casting of arrows and rods. "Nahash" were also diviners in Israel who divined according to the movement of the serpent.

While many of the kings did employ their diviners such as Saul many went to 'inquire of the Lord' which is the technical

term for acquiring an oracle.(See II Samuel 2:1) This would always involve asanctuary and the oracle, usually a Levite, would function as the oracle giver. It is interesting to note that the Hebrew word for Levite (kohen) and the Arabic word for diviner is similar (kahin).We also know that artifact agents were used. In Deut. 33:8 we read of the Urim and Thummim. According to the Mesopotamian text the UT were two stone of opposite colors, black and white. One was negative and the other positive. The prophet would use these to divine the Lords will. However, he was not always dependent on them. Sometimes they would be used as focal points to obtain God's will. As stated before the prophet will inquire, deliver the prophecy, and then interpret it.

The prophet also had at his disposal the ephod and the teraphim. Both of which are sketchy in their interpretation. It is believed the ephod was a priestly garment mentioned in I Sam 14:18. But, in other scripture it was thought of as a ark. The teraphim or household gods, although banned in Israel nonetheless were used extensively. (Zech 10:2/Ex 34:33)

There was also divination through sacrifice. Oracles or priest would assist with this type of divination. In II Kings 16:15 Ahaz made inquiry of the Lord, i.e. he consulted the entrails of sheep. Called hepatoscopy the liver or seat of the soul would be removed and checked for unusual signs. A model of a sheep's liver has been found in Hazor giving strength to this assumption. Additionally Psalms has several passages which relate to this.

In summary my point is that the role of the prophet in the OT is far different than we know contemporaily. Aside from the above, ecstatic prophets, there were also those prophets who were not as much prognaticators, but those who presented the will of God to the people of Israel. Elsewhere I placed a post that spoke directly to this:

The OT is by far the most authoritative of any information concerning prophecy, but those prophets who can be called legitimate offer various understandings. Isaiah for the most part offers the most detailed explanation:

• (Isa 29:10;43:10-12;Eze.33:7 makes reference to a individual who watches and observes, hence, a witness of the people and the times.
  
• He would promote the saving ordinances of the gospel, the decrees and rites. (Isa I1:11-12(but)1:13 and DC 132:2-4). He would keep the scripture alive in the hearts of the new generation.(Isa 50:4;DC 68:4)
  
• He would teach that Israel had been elected by God and had a special covenant with him.
  
• He would teach them a sense of belonging that Israel was a place set apart. That Israel alone taught about the real God. (Isa. 40:11;DC49:9,36)
  
• He would also render Gods judgment (Isa 30:12-14;Jer. 5:3,12,14;DC 19:3,)
  
• God's compassion or mercy which implied a covenant. (Isa 54;7-8 ;DC 64:2;101:9),
  
• Redemption (Isa 51:11;DC29:42), and final consummation (Isa 53:4-5/2:2-4)
  
• Finally he would seal his life with his death.
  

The above represents the more abstract nature of the role of being a warning prophet while the OT continues to give more metaphysical and physical elements of prophecy not many of which would find approval today in the form of the ecstatic prophet. For example, the use of divination devices, etc. Such examples are more of a herald than the less benign, but more recognizable elements that Isaiah presents.

Within the framework of the NT there is an interesting note presented by W.C. van Unnik, "A Formula Describing Prophecy," New Testament Studies 9 (1963): 88-89 which suggests the prophets would have to approach the subject from a formula which had to survey the whole of history in its "three aspects of past, present and future" through divine inspiration. In the Apocryphon of John, "Now I have come to reveal to you that which is, that which has been and that which will be..." Prophecy, therefore, is dependent on the grasp of the prophet to reveal past, present and future.

[hagoth7]

Here, I'll make it easy for you... This is how the Bible says it was fulfilled...

Ezekiel 29

17